Now THERE is the attitude that everyone the world over really loves. Excellent. Truly. Excellent. An Amerkun way of looking at things, indeed!
I'm not serious about this suggestion, except from the standpoint of meaning that I wish it could be like this...
Let everyone who loves the DHS' security policies and procedures fly on one type of airline, and let everyone who's willing to take his chances fly on another. Everyone going on the first type of airline gets a colonoscopy, everyone going on the other type of airline just walks right the heck on. We send a military escort with the second type of airline to shoot it down if it gets highjacked. Westation executioners at DHS to whack policy-makers when the first type gets highjacked.
It sould be interesting. I know which airline I'd fly on. And I bet I know which type some other folks around here would fly on.
To each his own. I refuse to live in fear. I refuse to fear the terrorists because that's what they want, and I'm stubborn. But even more than refusing to fear the terrorists, I'm refusing to fear my own damned government. I pay taxes to those rascals, and I'll be ****ed if I think it's a great idea that they spend my tax dollars and my time so they can look up my, or anyone else's, poop chute.
It's actaully not that crazy an idea. If you look at it as a money making opertunity. People bilk those looking for diet pills all the time ... lets bilk the ultra paranoid flyers.
You could sell it as an added security airline for the ultra paranoid.
Everyone needs to pass through a locker room to change into provided robes. Your clothing and personal belongings will be scanned and packed in the cargo bay.
Did they close the airport due to a white person having water? No. It was a Pakistani woman. Try to pay attention.
Oh so they are incompetent then? Or can you provide a link to a story reporting on an airport in another country closing due to a lady's makeup kit.... Chicken Little.
- Aug 23, 2003
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If you guys want to get angry about something, how about the fact that nearly 5 years after 9/11, our bomb detection equipment is so sh1tty that we have to deal with false positives for bottled water and face cream that shut down airports for 10 hours.
Think about it.....you would not know it was makeup unless you CHECKED it correct?
I would think, that people of your ilk and that of the OP would want to actually share your knowlege instead of just sitting behind your keyboards pointing fingers. Obviously you have the uncanny ability to know exactly what a terrorist looks like, all the ways that they will attmept to create havoc and you KNOW for sure that it WILL NOT be a woman that will attempt this kind of activity. IF you are so damned sure that you KNOW EXCATLY what should NOT be checked then why not make your life and the life of those around you easier by being part of airport security and teaching those doing the job what they need to look out for and what they can let pass. That way we won't have to wait in line.
PLEASE do not be selfish...share your vast knowledge of the psycholgy, motivation and techniques of todays terrorist so that people the world over may benefit.
- Oct 9, 1999
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Me, too, and I'm as 'white' as Wonder Bread with the crust removed. Each and every time I've flown since 9/11 (6x only), I've been 'selected' out of the line for that loving, 'random' security check -- sometimes, somehow, TWICE before I boarded. Each and every time!Originally posted by: The Green Bean
This is nothing new. We asian folks often get biased security checks even at alleged muslim airports.
Past political activism combined with 'special' training I once received or amazing coincidence? You decide!
Why profile??
Count how many Cathlic suicide bombers in the last ten years........(silence). Count how many Swiss kidnappers in Iraq...........(more silence). Count how many non-Muslim run terrorist attacks on airlines in the last ten years..........(silence)
Now lets start on gangs. How many white people in Arkansas produce and sell crack? (very damned few, if any) How many white people sell Meth in Arkansas? Most ALL Meth in this state is by white middle classers. Blacks don't do Meth in this state as a rule.
So why would we (in Arkansas) waste our time looking for black meth dealers just to not hurt someones feelings? Why would we detain Catholic practitioners for suicide bombers? Why would we waste time on crack searches in white upper-class neighborhoods (they prefer Coke and Weed)? We wouldn't .
It's NOT profiling, so much as knowing the community. It's also knowing the groups that live there. Looking for something that is not there wastes time and manpower.
Random searches are meaningless if you don't focus on "hot spots".
Count how many Cathlic suicide bombers in the last ten years........(silence). Count how many Swiss kidnappers in Iraq...........(more silence). Count how many non-Muslim run terrorist attacks on airlines in the last ten years..........(silence)
Now lets start on gangs. How many white people in Arkansas produce and sell crack? (very damned few, if any) How many white people sell Meth in Arkansas? Most ALL Meth in this state is by white middle classers. Blacks don't do Meth in this state as a rule.
So why would we (in Arkansas) waste our time looking for black meth dealers just to not hurt someones feelings? Why would we detain Catholic practitioners for suicide bombers? Why would we waste time on crack searches in white upper-class neighborhoods (they prefer Coke and Weed)? We wouldn't .
It's NOT profiling, so much as knowing the community. It's also knowing the groups that live there. Looking for something that is not there wastes time and manpower.
Random searches are meaningless if you don't focus on "hot spots".
WTF dude. . .so since they might not or even probably won't find them, they shouldn't even look? You do realize that's like sending an open invitation to go ahead and bring them all on board don't you? Let me pose a hypothetical situation. . .suppose you have never had your home invaded and your posessions stolen. Would you go to bed at night or go out of your house for an extended period and leave the door unlocked? I mean hell. . .nobody ever broke in and robbed you before so why bother, right? Now lets suppose that both you and your next door neighbor go out of your houses together on a week long fishing trip or something like that. While you are gone, a burglar comes along. Your neighbor has installed a home security system and a has locked his door while you have done neither. Assuming the contents of the houses are equal, whos house do you think will get robbed?
What I would pose to those who are in favor of profiling...is how do you plan to acheive this? Do you realize the type of logistics needed to accomplish this?
Lets say we want to profile all Arabs. How do we find out if they are Arabs? Are you now talking about a Massive Database of all the millions of Arabsin this country so we can track each one? How long to we need to track them, and what OTHER information will be tracked because if we will keep a list of which airports they go into, we might as well get other info since Hard drives are cheap these days
But then we have to consider that they aren't just Arab, they could be Irani or they could even be Pakistani or other places! What do you do for an Irani, do they get the same treatment? What about a Pakistani person...how do we know that is a Pakistani and not a Indian? And if they are an indian, there is still a chance they are Muslim so now you are going to be profiling all Indians and Pakistanis. Oh and might I add that people always confuse Sikhs as Muslims. What is done in that situation?
So lets fix it and track all MUSLIMS. What about if they convert to Islam. What if they LEAVE Islam, can they be removed from this tracking list?
Do you guys realize the problem in attempting to profile every "Muslim looking" person. Again, there are MILLIONS of Muslims in this country and many more "middle easterners" however you want to count that (I never understood why people count Pakistan and Afghanistan as Middle East). You simply cannot. IT isn't like there is a small easy pool of 13,000 Muslims that we can track~ and many more today are born WITHIN the USA and see themselves as Americans and whatever location they are from. Are these American Citizens going to get the raw end of the stick?
If we tried to implement what a few advocate, such as what happened the other day, we will have delays everyday, constantly for 9-10 hours at a time because girls are bringing water bottles and lotion. And this isn't just "Middle Easterners"...this is every female(literally, i've never seen one without lotion or water Doesn't matter if they dress Westernized or if they don a hijab, or if they use an abayah)!
Lets say we want to profile all Arabs. How do we find out if they are Arabs? Are you now talking about a Massive Database of all the millions of Arabsin this country so we can track each one? How long to we need to track them, and what OTHER information will be tracked because if we will keep a list of which airports they go into, we might as well get other info since Hard drives are cheap these days
But then we have to consider that they aren't just Arab, they could be Irani or they could even be Pakistani or other places! What do you do for an Irani, do they get the same treatment? What about a Pakistani person...how do we know that is a Pakistani and not a Indian? And if they are an indian, there is still a chance they are Muslim so now you are going to be profiling all Indians and Pakistanis. Oh and might I add that people always confuse Sikhs as Muslims. What is done in that situation?
So lets fix it and track all MUSLIMS. What about if they convert to Islam. What if they LEAVE Islam, can they be removed from this tracking list?
Do you guys realize the problem in attempting to profile every "Muslim looking" person. Again, there are MILLIONS of Muslims in this country and many more "middle easterners" however you want to count that (I never understood why people count Pakistan and Afghanistan as Middle East). You simply cannot. IT isn't like there is a small easy pool of 13,000 Muslims that we can track~ and many more today are born WITHIN the USA and see themselves as Americans and whatever location they are from. Are these American Citizens going to get the raw end of the stick?
If we tried to implement what a few advocate, such as what happened the other day, we will have delays everyday, constantly for 9-10 hours at a time because girls are bringing water bottles and lotion. And this isn't just "Middle Easterners"...this is every female(literally, i've never seen one without lotion or water
Doesn't matter if they dress Westernized or if they don a hijab, or if they use an abayah)!magomago
Did you bother to read any of the posts above??
They are not singling out minorities, or Arabs in general. That would be counter-productive. You single out those who don't fit into the "Big Picture". The ones that seem nervous, the ones that are not local, or act local though it's clear that they are not. You single out those acting different than the situation merits.
Muslims are NOT the issue. RADICAL foreign Arab Muslims are. There are no calls for beheadings from the Muslims in the United States. Where were the street protests when the Muhhamad cartoons were published?? Exactly......
I guess that you would ramdom search by numbers, ignoring the facts about the Community at large. If you were a veterinarian or animal control officer, You would treat ALL dogs as equal, and ignore that there are more fatal attacks by certain breeds, or concentrate you efforts on chasing Basset Hounds and Cocker Spaniels?
Did you bother to read any of the posts above??
They are not singling out minorities, or Arabs in general. That would be counter-productive. You single out those who don't fit into the "Big Picture". The ones that seem nervous, the ones that are not local, or act local though it's clear that they are not. You single out those acting different than the situation merits.
Muslims are NOT the issue. RADICAL foreign Arab Muslims are. There are no calls for beheadings from the Muslims in the United States. Where were the street protests when the Muhhamad cartoons were published?? Exactly......
I guess that you would ramdom search by numbers, ignoring the facts about the Community at large. If you were a veterinarian or animal control officer, You would treat ALL dogs as equal, and ignore that there are more fatal attacks by certain breeds, or concentrate you efforts on chasing Basset Hounds and Cocker Spaniels?
Yes I've read the entire thread. If I post before I read the post, I generally note "Well I didn't read much of it, but I want to toss my 2 cents in"
Who its addressed to are the ones in favor of profiling. Why did I respond as if it was profiling all of them? Because how else would you do it! Some people are in favor of profiling all of Arabs or all Musilms. You simply just can't acheive that.
And I agree, suspicious people should be profiled. But the question is simply "looking" Arab or "middle eastern" be a problem? I would be less concerned of myself: an Arab dressed in a shirt,tie,slacks and old man shoes, than a white guy looking around like he has something to hide.
To stop a Grandma, or random lady I think is stupid and I totally agree with you here. I think it creates a false illusion of security when I see TSA pull over a person in a wheel chair to inspect him or her. But should security say "Hey...she looks mmiddle eastern and has a water bottle" is equally as ludicrous and presents an equally false impression of security.
If someone looks nervous, acts odd, has luggage that passes through the scanner but still has some stuff that cannot be identified exactly...that is the person we need to look for. If the person seems abnormally dishelved and disorganized, that might be another thing to look for...but to say "his genes are Arab...watch him" becomes a problem.
Btw I'm addressing this:
He defines terror as it exists CULTURALLY and then everyone that comes from that CULTURE are subject to this...hence my point about growing up as an American here. Did he bother to have reference to suspicous people? He went straight for the minorities.
I also felt like writing that here because there are already numerous prior threads where people have taken more radical views.
I agree: focus on the "hotspots". But just because someone is an Arab or Muslim doesn't mean it is the hotspot. You stated that where you are the police focus on White Middle Class for Meth Dealers: that doesn't mean that all the white middle class in Arkansas is involved in Meth deals....just because you find a white person doesn't mean they are a meth dealer. But if they are buying the chemicals used for it, accompanied with other concrete evidence, and HAPPEN to be white~ that just might be the ticket
In the same nature, if someone doesn't fit the profile well (IE: woman carrying water bottle and lotion LIKE EVERY OTHER WOMAN OUT THERE) but matches the "race" (ie: Middle Eastern Looking) there is no reason they should be detained. Should I be stopped because I'm Arab? No! But if I was looking around nervously, clutching things and looking around with suspicion and wanting to eagerly board for no reason (though I might add that I HAVE wanted to eagerly board because there were no seats to sit down near my terminal due to busy traffic
) they should be suspicious. If I was arab looking it MIGHT be another point to consider...but only insofar as the earlier criterion existed. I'm concerned about those who see "Hey its a Middle Easterner...they might be suspicious" and act on that without any supporting evidence. And no Middle Eastern Looking Person, or Muslim, should have to be subjected to that based soley on their race or faith.
edit:
btw what are you talking about the Muhammed cartoons? That there were or were not? I know there was at my campus because the College Republicans put on a showing. Many Muslims went to protest (and probably with some right considering one of the invited speakers talked about how "ebil" Islam is) and while I didn't take part, I did ride my bike down there to check it out for a while. It was fairly peaceful, although as always some people were forcibly removed from the inside of the building due to some problems.
5150Joker
Diamond Member
All this hoopla about airport security is being trumped up in the media because a few racist whites/jews want to see people of mideast and muslim backgrounds harassed and intimidated.
Does anybody at all really KNOW how hard it is to build a liquid explosive in-flight?
I suggest the following reading, and then all pause and feel a bit used:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/
Now don't you all feel just a little better???
Future Shock
I suggest the following reading, and then all pause and feel a bit used:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/
Now don't you all feel just a little better???
Future Shock
Future Shock,
Far easier to just make a chlorine bomb with brake fluid and concentrated chlorine bleach. you could also make a sodium bomb with powdered/pelletized sodium and bottled water. High school chemistry at it's best.
I'm no expert, but toxic gassing is enough to give a prepared terrorist the advantage over the passengers and most of the crew. Sure, it won't bring down the plane, but it would certainly give you two steps foward to the takeover of the aircraft.
I know of some far nastier and more obscure ways, but not here, or for public knowledge. I learned about them in my previous life as a Federal officer, and quite a few nasty tricks on missions in the Army.
Far easier to just make a chlorine bomb with brake fluid and concentrated chlorine bleach. you could also make a sodium bomb with powdered/pelletized sodium and bottled water. High school chemistry at it's best.
I'm no expert, but toxic gassing is enough to give a prepared terrorist the advantage over the passengers and most of the crew. Sure, it won't bring down the plane, but it would certainly give you two steps foward to the takeover of the aircraft.
I know of some far nastier and more obscure ways, but not here, or for public knowledge. I learned about them in my previous life as a Federal officer, and quite a few nasty tricks on missions in the Army.
I think the issue that The Register looked at is: you can make something explode pretty easily, but bringing down a plane takes a much larger explosion than just popping a few windows. And as for gassing, all airplanes have good venting systems in the air conditioning to the outside air (that's why the plane air is so dry - they DO bring in a lot of outside, dry air), so even if you were to really generate a decent amount of chlorine gas, it could be vented out fairly quickly - and then there is the internal oxygen masks to offer support as well. Remember the Japanese cult that DID manage to generate Saracin on a subway? Killed about 10 - 12 people, which on a crowded Japanese subway is a not nearly that effective a showing. (yes, I am thankful it wasn't more!!!)
I am not pre-supposing that you can't cause terror in the skies - it's just a lot harder than people pre-suppose to actually bring down a plane.
Future Shock
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