With these new rumors from SugahShack, let's start talking about Rampage.

Sephiroth_IX

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
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Here is what ShugahShack says.

- M-Buffer? : "M" stands for multi-sample. ... in the multi-sampling method, used by Spectre, only one texture lookup per *pixel* (so that all subsamples use the same texture lookup value) is required. ...it reduces the amount of texture lookup by a factor of 4 compared to the VSA-100 method...
- Recursive textures : Texturing flexibility by supporting N (8 for Spectre) independent, unique textures applied per pixel in a single rendering pass... Also reflection on water.
- Overbright (52-bit color) : Increased internal precision of 52-bits (signed 13-bits per RGBA color component), generating rendered images of substantially higher quality. The higher dynamic range reduces darkening resulting in more vibrant and realistic images.
- Perlin Noise :
- Vertex cache :
- Natural cubic spline :
- Higher Order Surfaces (HOS) : Curved surface maps representing textures. Includes Bezier, B-Spline, Catmull-Rom spline patches
- Curved patches : A curved surface created from two or more curves.
- B-Spline :
- Catmull-Rom spline patches :
- Bezier :


I do not know every one of these things, but ill talk about what i do know in a sec. For now, lets talk about that wonderful little 8 texel per clock number :)

We have a 2 chip card here. Therefore, I am going out on a limb and assuming that each chip has two pipelines. I want to say that it will have 1 pipeline per chip, but that would leave the pixel fillrate pitifully low, as you will see later. The card has been rumored to be running at 200/200, so that means our final numbers come out to be 800mpix and 6400mtex. This seems unnaturally imbalanced as you look at 3dfx's past, where the V5 5500 has 2mpix/2mpix per chip per clock. However, very few of the games will use more than 3/4 textures per pixel, so that number is probably pretty overkill, even though John Carmack was looking for 8tex per pixel for Doom 3. This info comes from a .plan update.

Either way, that is what the rumors are telling us.


From here, we need to look at memory bandwidth. 200mhz DDR memory on a 2 chip solution will be competing with a 250mhz DDR (expected) memory/1 chip solution from NVIDIA. I am unsure how to calculate the bandwidth's, but this obviously gives 3dfx a huge advantage.




There will also be HSR, and it will probably be slightly more potent than Nvidia and ATi's, as 3dfx can use tricks from Gigapixel.

Lets look at the features now:

-Overbright seems like the same thing that Matrox uses to increase 2d quality, but i may be wrong.
-Multi-Sample is using the same texture value and offsetting it slightly, rather than supersampling, which created 2/4 (2x/4x FSAA) values independently and offsetted them. Look for HUGE increases here in FSAA, making it an essential. 8x FSAA will be there, because it was on the V5 6000... Nvidia has this feature also.
-Curved surfaces will be created in hardware

My question, what is the vertex cache? Someone wanna jump in on this one?



Finally, a disclaimer. This is completely too early to make this thread, but i thought it would be fun. It is probably wrong, but it seems to add up fairly well. Lets talk about it guys, what do you think?
 

Marty

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
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<< it reduces the amount of texture lookup by a factor of 4 compared to the VSA-100 method >>



The V5, AFAIK, does its 4X FSAA by taking four samples per pixel and then jittering it. If I understand this correctly, it may mean that the Rampage will do 4X FSAA for free, at least when not doing any other features that this multisample-buffer allows. Sounds good to me! :D

Marty
 

pg22

Platinum Member
Feb 9, 2000
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It's 12:14 am, I'm done with my fruit loops....I think I'm going back to playing Final Fantasy III on my PS2.

cya ;)
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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thats, uh, 12.8 gigabytes of bandwidth there... quite a bit... of course, ddr isn't 100% double, its like 90%. and then there may be some overhead with the dual chip setup, like if they happen to look up the same texture at the same time. don't know how often this happens. maybe DaveB3D could fill in here since that is a v5 issue, and the v5 is out so NDAs shouldn't apply to too much anymore.

128 bits x 400MHz x 2 chips / 8 bits per byte = 12.8 gigabytes. nv 20 would be 8 gigabytes.

FF3 on PS2? man... they must really have a lack of good games for you to be playing a port of an 8-bit famicom game.
 

Fozzie

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
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&quot;For now, lets talk about that wonderful little 8 texel per clock number&quot;

It didn't say that. :) Everyone assumes per-pass means in a single clock, and guess what, it doesn't. Rememeber the Kyro? 8 textures per PASS? Only two per clock? Its called LOOP-BACK. It simply means that it can do upto 8 textures on a pixel without first writing to the framebuffer and potentially getting a quality and speed loss. I don't think this is that unique in the DX8 world.

&quot;If I understand this correctly, it may mean that the Rampage will do 4X FSAA for free, at least when not doing any other features that this multisample-buffer allows. Sounds good to me!&quot;

Fraid not, my understanding is this method is essentially using the same texel data for each sample. So it doesn't AA the textures at all, but the polygon edges and cracks and corners and whatnot. It eliminates jaggies and combined with high-tap Anistropic filtering you get great image quality for less of a speed hit.
 

Marty

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
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Well, it would perform VSA-100 style 4X FSAA without a performance hit, because where the VSA-100 has to look up all four subsamples, the Rampage will need to check only one. A dual chip Rampage should do 8X FSAA for free.

Marty
 

pg22

Platinum Member
Feb 9, 2000
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FF3 on PS2? man... they must really have a lack of good games for you to be playing a port of an 8-bit famicom game

Actually, it's a 16-Bit Super Famicom/SNES game ;)

And I can say with 99.999% assurity that there will never be a better game on PS2 or any other system ;)


-Back to M Buffers now ;)
 

ndee

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
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According to RoboTech, this Info was all posted on 3Dfx.......... but was deleted again.
 

Daemon_UK

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
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Wow, the next-gen cards are really looking sweet.

Any one know when the next gen cards are gonna be released.

Im still holding on to my TNT2! :D

Cheers
 

HaVoC

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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To end this off topic turn for the thread, Yucky: He is playing the PSX version on the PS2.
 

ICyourNipple

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Oct 9, 2000
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Does nvidia have anything at all to compete in FSAA with rampage? it sounds like 3dfx is going to own image quality.
 

HaVoC

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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As I always say, it's TOO EARLY to make any valid conclusions about next-gen offerings from nVidia and 3Dfx. Anything at this point is pure speculation. From our limited knowledge, it looks as though 3Dfx will have a very competitive product in terms of fillrate/FSAA. Nothing is known about T&amp;L or DX8 featureset which will be much more important next year.
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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1) It looks like the Spectre won't do FSAA, but ONLY MSAA? Or will it have both (Dave???) ;)
2) It was posted on 3dfx' glossary page, and then reposted on the Motley's Fool board. then 3dfx deleted ALL of it.

I think Dave posted it on purpose to be mischievous, heh....

3) Spectre looks like it's gonna be awesome. But this is 3dfx, so

THEY MUST EXECUTE

and that's not something we can take for granted with them. :/