Windows Vista (aka Longhorn) to Require Monitor-Based DRM

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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Originally posted by: NokiaDude
Originally posted by: Wag
Originally posted by: NokiaDude
It said that as long as it has a DVI connection, you'll be able to view "premium" content. This just sucks for those still with CRT's.
That is incorrect. You need to have DVI with HDCP protection, and most PC displays up until this point don't offer this.
Nooooooo. It said DVI or HDMI with HDCP protection. I will choose to interpret that as, If it's got a DVI connection, it'll work in Longhorn. If it's HDMI, it'll work with HDCP protection.

The logic is: (DVI or HDMI) with HDCP
not: DVI or (HDMI with HDCP)

Anyways, I cannot see Microsoft sticking to this, it would be bad for every consumer in the world. I'm not going to get myself in a ruffle until much closer to Longhorn's release. Still to early to make definitive judgements, I think.
 

Avalon

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2001
7,571
178
106
I'm not entirely sure I understand this...maybe someone could explain it in more layman's terms for me. I understand that if you don't have an HDCP capable display, you'll either get a fuzzy image or a black screen, but I want to know why and how this works this way. Since when did they choose the monitor, of all things, to be the limitor to piracy?
 

ryanv12

Senior member
May 4, 2005
920
0
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Good question Avalon. I don't know the layman's terms - all I understood from that was "DONT GET LONGHORN"

I'll be like those people around here who still have Windows 2000. Not like there's anything wrong about that.

I don't want an OSX-looking clone on my PC anyways. I'm keeping XP or I'm doing the crack just to spite Microsoft.
 

Wag

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
8,288
8
81
Originally posted by: Avalon
I'm not entirely sure I understand this...maybe someone could explain it in more layman's terms for me. I understand that if you don't have an HDCP capable display, you'll either get a fuzzy image or a black screen, but I want to know why and how this works this way. Since when did they choose the monitor, of all things, to be the limitor to piracy?
Just the way HDMI works. I'm not sure what they mean by "fuzzy", that's not correct. What they probably mean is like HD-DVD which will will only support HDMI enabled monitors, it's up to a software provider to decide whether or not they'll allow full HD playback on your non-HDMI enabled monitor. If not they'll down-rez 1080i/p to 480p, etc.

I suppose they could extend that to any piece of software, not just movies.

 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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I just hope game makers till still support windows xp/2000 when longhorn releases. It would suck horrible if they released longhorn only games.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: Hacp
I just hope game makers till still support windows xp/2000 when longhorn releases. It would suck horrible if they released longhorn only games.

From my understanding, WGF will only be supported in Longhorn and later OSs, so it will be a forced upgrade eventually for all of us :(
 

Avalon

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2001
7,571
178
106
So basically it's just multimedia/HD content that searches for HDCP protection and will refuse to play or downsample itself if it detects your monitor (again, why did they pick a monitor of all the pieces of hardware in your system?) does not offer the correct protection?
 

Wag

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
8,288
8
81
Originally posted by: Avalon
So basically it's just multimedia/HD content that searches for HDCP protection and will refuse to play or downsample itself if it detects your monitor (again, why did they pick a monitor of all the pieces of hardware in your system?) does not offer the correct protection?
Yep, that's basically it. As for chosing the monitor, well it's dumb. I guess they were concerned about direct digital recording over the DVI/HDMI port and analog output. Which doesn't exist or is a very, very pricey prospect (talking thousands of dollars)

As I said before, HDCP is already supported over Firewire, and that's made for recording. For the monitor it's really not needed.

Esssentially the software providers want to have complete control over everything that comes into your home- movies, games, music, whatever. Is it any surprise Microsoft is going along with this?


 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
I just bought a Samsung 213T, and f*** Microsoft, MPAA, et. al. if they think that I'm going to buy a new monitor just to pad their already overflowing pocketbooks! :roll: :|
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
If they truely implement this feature, I will become a Linux geek. No doubt about it. The reason I haven't moved to Linux is because I can do everything on Windows now. If I start getting retricted, I'm moving to something else (Linux).
 

imported_X

Senior member
Jan 13, 2005
391
0
0
Is this only relevant for people playing HD-DVDs on their pc? Or could games theoretically be impacted as well?
 

Killrose

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 1999
6,230
8
81
So whats next? are they going to use the V-chip exsisting in TV's to control piracy with the XBox 360?
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
16
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This isn't a 'microsoft unique' feature.

It seems very likely that the DVD consortium, and the Blu-ray groups will insist on a similar protectetion scheme for HD video. I.e. you will only be able to play HD discs at HD resolution when connected via an encrypted HDMI connection. If connected via DVI or component, the image resolution will be reduced to the standard DVD level.

Given that this is very likely to be the case for these media - it is essential that MS includes such features in their OS, otherwise they (nor other software companies) would not be able to licence HD video technologies for use on a PC.
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Originally posted by: Mark R
This isn't a 'microsoft unique' feature.

It seems very likely that the DVD consortium, and the Blu-ray groups will insist on a similar protectetion scheme for HD video. I.e. you will only be able to play HD discs at HD resolution when connected via an encrypted HDMI connection. If connected via DVI or component, the image resolution will be reduced to the standard DVD level.

Given that this is very likely to be the case for these media - it is essential that MS includes such features in their OS, otherwise they (nor other software companies) would not be able to licence HD video technologies for use on a PC.
MS can do what they like. If the DVD consortium and Blu-Ray groups insist on this kind of bullsh!t, MS needs to say, "Ah, we're not going to implement this kind of junk in our products. " And just let Blu-Ray and HD die. Fvck them!
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
A Japanese programmer already cracked WMP DRM 9 (latest). Then Microsoft released a patch to prevent debugging of said process. Then he cracked it again. lol.

Same thing will happen with this. Longhorn's 'debug kernel-mode protection' is good, but I'm sure there'll be Longhorn rootkits. Just hack it at the lowest level (x86 assembler). And I don't understand what copy-protecting the monitor is going to accomplish. As if the majority of piracy takes place with people cracking files encoded by Microsoft's 'top secret DRM'. :roll: Obviously pirated movies aren't going to be encoded with DRM, so they're accomplishing nothing. Not to mention they're making us get new monitors for the 0.01% of people who download DRM movies and crack them. If I want the video, I'll get it. Sorry, Microsoft.

Though it's my understanding you only need a new monitor if you intend to play DRM'10' content in full quality. So don't get a new monitor. Just get the DRM'10' crack when it comes out and decode your video then play it on any damn monitor. Give Microsoft the shaft.

Besides, pirated Longhorn builds are all over the place. I'm sure the crackers are already working on it and will have it working a week before the official launch kind of like what happened with the Windows activation crap.
 

ToeJam13

Senior member
May 18, 2004
504
0
0
Originally posted by: NokiaDude
It said that as long as it has a DVI connection, you'll be able to view "premium" content. This just sucks for those still with CRT's.

..

Nooooooo. It said DVI or HDMI with HDCP protection. I will choose to interpret that as, If it's got a DVI connection, it'll work in Longhorn. If it's HDMI, it'll work with HDCP protection.

Incorrect.

The standard states that you must have some form of hardware copy-protection in your display interconnection.

DVI.D and DVI.I both use HDCP as an optional protocol. Not all digital DVI monitors meet this requirement.

HDMI specification 1.0 requires use of the HDCP protocol. All HDMI monitors must meet this requirement.

Originally posted by: rise4310
how do they expect this to fly? i know its microsoft and all that, but this will be the worst selling OS ever if they go through with this.

Most people who do not view a lot of commercial multimedia are not going to be affected by this, and thus don't care.

However, I do not see this being limited to just Longhorn. Expect future WMV codecs and WMP releases to include this. Furthermore, expect future software DVD players to use this as well, especially software DVD players that support HD-DVD or BluRay.

Originally posted by: Avalon
I'm not entirely sure I understand this...maybe someone could explain it in more layman's terms for me. I understand that if you don't have an HDCP capable display, you'll either get a fuzzy image or a black screen, but I want to know why and how this works this way. Since when did they choose the monitor, of all things, to be the limitor to piracy?

Its just a matter of time before DVI capture devices started hitting mainstream. If you can't crack a WMV file, get around it by capturing the output of your video card. Granted, you'll loose some quality during the decode/recode phase, but it does bypass the protection. This hardware requirement simply removes this path as a workaround method for copying protected content.

The protection routines work by taking the video stream and reducing the resolution before displaying it on your media player. It would be the same as if somebody took a 720x480 DVD, reduced it to 300x200, and then zoomed in on the stream to fill the same window size. Yuk. The resulting video will be low resolution soup. What they are not doing is going in and making your whole screen blurry... well, unless you're using full-window mode in your media player.
 

bersl2

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2004
1,617
0
0
Hmm... I knew I should have posted this in here instead of in OS yesterday...

Anyway, (some of) you have been warned repeatedly that bad shiat was coming your way. I guess none of you thought it would get this bad.

Even though some of you say you're going to stick with Windows until the last possible moment (which is understandable), why do you continue to go back for more, when time after time, Microsoft and all of its cronies, coerced by the *AA, announce (quietly) that they intend to make your lives harder for reasons that are arguably invalid?

And I should remind you that, regardless of whether it is right to do so, circumventing copy protection schemes, for any reason, is illegal in the US.
 

BionicSniper

Member
Jul 4, 2005
95
0
0
screw them.

i dont think anything has that and if they do that i doubght they will get many people buying the os.

i sure as hell wont
 

ryanv12

Senior member
May 4, 2005
920
0
0
I don't think we'll be kept away from the OS forever. Microsoft has the PC industry by the balls in regards to your operating system. Saying that, I'll hold off as long as I can before upgrading, and when I do, you'll be sure I'll be using this hack. I wish there was a viable alternative, I really do.
 

bersl2

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2004
1,617
0
0
Originally posted by: ryanv12
I don't think we'll be kept away from the OS forever. Microsoft has the PC industry by the balls in regards to your operating system. Saying that, I'll hold off as long as I can before upgrading, and when I do, you'll be sure I'll be using this hack. I wish there was a viable alternative, I really do.

It's called "making a few sacrifices."

I think I can safely say that there are very few of you posting on this board who do not love working with computers on some level. It is a hard task to condense the reasons for this, but let me try: perhaps it is that we enjoy the freedom of action we are provided. Most of the rules presented to us are but suggestions which, given enough knowledge, we may override, and some of them are for technical reasons (laws of nature, limitations of theory, etc.); but whenever we run into a limit unexpectedly, we become confused, frustrated, or angered, depending on the nature of the limit. However, I posit that these limits which are being now set before us are neither technical in nature nor suggestive in intent; they are imperative limits.

The first time imperative limits were placed in front of you in a major way was product activation. You complained that you didn't like it and that it often didn't work, but in the end, you quietly gave in and circumvented it (key generators). But so did the people for whom the system was designed to foil in the first place. Now, what was the point again?

The second time was with add-ons to hardware and device drivers in software, designed to obscure unprotected data from access. You complained that these broke compatability with existing hardware and software and that it often didn't work, but in the end, you quietly gave in and circumvented them (shift key, black marker, more key generators). But so did the people for whom the system was designed to foil in the first place. Now, what was the point again?

This time, they are redesigning everything, end to end, so that these measures "can't fail." They are going to back every software measure they take with hardware to enforce their rules, and they are going to break backwards compatability as much as is necessary to enforce the rules. Of course, now you're all of a sudden going to realize that some of the things that they say you shouldn't be allowed to do, you say you should. And you're probably going to complain. But what, from the last two generations of this shiat, has ever indicated to you that they're going to listen? Nothing. NEWS FLASH: They don't listen to your words. And to return to what I was saying before, about how the fun of computing is freedom of action, all of a sudden, you will learn that you no longer have the final say about what you are allowed to do, limited by only pure technology and your own creativity.

In my opinion, in order to protect what we love, it is time for us to make a bold statement to those currently in the drivers' seat, with our voices, and our wallets, and our product usages, that we will not give up our freedom of action. There are, to a great degree, viable alternatives and other solutions; you just have to have the inner strength to resolve to use them.