Windows keeping bad track of HD space

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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Running Windows 2000 SP4, I checked out one of my boot HD's partitions and there was 17.2 GB available. I deleted some files, maybe 1 GB (Shift+Delete - i.e. doesn't go in recycle bin, it just goes "poof"!), and it still said there was only 17.2 GB space available! WTF?

Well, I create a directory and dump some files in there, almost 17 GB worth. I run an application that uses the files but doesn't change them in any way. The application is on another parition, as is my OS and swap file.

I then delete that entire directory, so I should have at least that original 17.2 GB space left, right? No! Now it says I have only 16.4 GB left. Is this Microsoft levying a tax on me? The recycle bin is empty. What is this about?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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This IS a heavily used partition (it's my most used data partition) so I thought maybe it had something to do with fragmentation, etc. I just ran Norton Disk Doctor (no problems reported) and then Norton Speed Disk, which says it optimized the drive to the max. It's about a 30 GB partition. Windows still reports that the partition has 16.4 GB free space. Weird, I say.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: Muse
Running Windows 2000 SP4, I checked out one of my boot HD's partitions and there was 17.2 GB available. I deleted some files, maybe 1 GB (Shift+Delete - i.e. doesn't go in recycle bin, it just goes "poof"!), and it still said there was only 17.2 GB space available! WTF?
Well, I create a directory and dump some files in there, almost 17 GB worth. I run an application that uses the files but doesn't change them in any way. The application is on another parition, as is my OS and swap file.
I then delete that entire directory, so I should have at least that original 17.2 GB space left, right? No! Now it says I have only 16.4 GB left. Is this Microsoft levying a tax on me? The recycle bin is empty. What is this about?

Not really enough information here to comment on (without guessing). The first issue is certainly normal if you had compression turned on and the file where highly compressible (such as text log files)

As for the second, if there where a lot of small files, you created a bunch of MFT entries (each at probably 4k on your system) that (while now free for reuse) won't get returned to the 'drive' as free.

Bill
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
39,616
9,463
136
Originally posted by: bsobel
Originally posted by: Muse
Running Windows 2000 SP4, I checked out one of my boot HD's partitions and there was 17.2 GB available. I deleted some files, maybe 1 GB (Shift+Delete - i.e. doesn't go in recycle bin, it just goes "poof"!), and it still said there was only 17.2 GB space available! WTF?
Well, I create a directory and dump some files in there, almost 17 GB worth. I run an application that uses the files but doesn't change them in any way. The application is on another parition, as is my OS and swap file.
I then delete that entire directory, so I should have at least that original 17.2 GB space left, right? No! Now it says I have only 16.4 GB left. Is this Microsoft levying a tax on me? The recycle bin is empty. What is this about?

Not really enough information here to comment on (without guessing). The first issue is certainly normal if you had compression turned on and the file where highly compressible (such as text log files)

As for the second, if there where a lot of small files, you created a bunch of MFT entries (each at probably 4k on your system) that (while now free for reuse) won't get returned to the 'drive' as free.

Bill
I'm not using any compression. There were 15 files in that directory. All but one were 2 GB, one was about 1.6 GB. BTW, this partition is FAT32.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,570
10,202
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Hmm. When I read your original post, I was going to agree with bsobel, the MFT was probably growing and eating up some of your free space, but now you mention you are running FAT32, which is probably more in my dept. :)

First, basic rundown - are you running any Norton/Symantec products on the system? Do you have "Norton Protected Recycle Bin" enabled? If you right-click on your recycle bin, you should see an additional entry for the Norton Protected Recycle Bin if you do have it installed. If that's true, then SHIFT+DEL will bypass the normal recycle bin, but not Norton's, and you will have to manually empty it.

If that's not the case, then time to look elsewhere. Do you have a Win98se DOS-mode boot-disk available? If you do, I suggest booting with it, and running a SCANDISK /ALL (skip the surface scan if you like, although take a quick peek at it, to see if any of the clusters on the graphical map are show as "B" - that would indicate that the FAT32 filesystem thinks that some of your disk has gone bad). The SCANDISK should, at the end, check the "free space count", and adjust it if necessary. Sometimes it doesn't get properly updated, especially if the system is not shut down properly (among other things). Hopefully, that should fix it.

If you did see any "B" clusters (another way is to do a "CHKDSK" within Windows, it will show the number of "bad clusters" in the summary as well - normally that number should be zero), then you need to: 1) backup your data/system, and 2) scan your HD using a boot disk from your HD mfg, such as WD's DataLifeguard, Maxtor's PowerMax, etc., and it will tell you if you have any bad sectors on the drive, and allow you to fix them (usually).

If none of this applies, then I think what you might be seeing, is differences in the sizes of files reported by the various means inside of Windows'. For example, in certain cases (depending on file names and attributes), right-clicking a directory in Explorer and selecting "Properties". and looking at the size totals, will return different numbers than if you open a Command Prompt window, and do a "DIR /A/S" command. Ordinarily, right-clicking on an entire drive in Explorer, will show a number for allocated space and total space; those should be accurate regardless, unless the FAT32 "free space count" is mistaken, but that should have been fixed by the prior step I mentioned.

Have you tried running the "Disk Cleanup" wizard? Perhaps there are some large temp files that were left around somewhere by the application that you were using? Consider emptying the IE cache too.

If that still doesn't help, then please post back, because I think that I've covered all of the common bases for that problem. (Don't forget that your hibernation and paging files take up space on the HD too.)
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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but now you mention you are running FAT32, which is probably more in my dept. :)

Oh, whys that? Just because I think fat needs to die a horrible (and quick death) doesn't mean I forgot everything I had to know about it writing Norton Utilities ;)

First, basic rundown - are you running any Norton/Symantec products on the system? Do you have "Norton Protected Recycle Bin" enabled? If you right-click on your recycle bin, you should see an additional entry for the Norton Protected Recycle Bin if you do have it installed. If that's true, then SHIFT+DEL will bypass the normal recycle bin, but not Norton's, and you will have to manually empty it.

Big duh from me, I should have asked that (would definately explain the behaviour)...

Bill
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,570
10,202
126
Originally posted by: bsobel
but now you mention you are running FAT32, which is probably more in my dept. :)

Oh, whys that? Just because I think fat needs to die a horrible (and quick death) doesn't mean I forgot everything I had to know about it writing Norton Utilities ;)

I just meant that because I'm a big "fan" of FAT32, whereas you .. don't seem to be, although I'm sure that you're quite proficient with it as well.

Originally posted by: bsobel
First, basic rundown - are you running any Norton/Symantec products on the system? Do you have "Norton Protected Recycle Bin" enabled?

Big duh from me, I should have asked that (would definately explain the behaviour)...
Bill

Well, I did think, after posting that, "actually, maybe this is bsobel's dept. after all". :)

PS. Do you think that you could put in a good word with your buddies over there at the "big S" to add support for 48-bit LBA calls to the DOS version of Norton DiskEdit? Also, I've found some inconsistencies in regular LBA support in the most recent versions (System Suite 2003, I think?), it seems that when they finally added support for LBA rather than only supporting CHS geometries, they left out a few of the bits having to do with "virtual geometry" support, as part of the "Advanced Recovery Feature" mode. (I think I've got that right, it's been some time since I last used that tool. It has been a lifesaver though, numerous times. It would be a shame if it were completely discontinued.)
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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PS. Do you think that you could put in a good word with your buddies over there at the "big S" to add support for 48-bit LBA calls to the DOS version of Norton DiskEdit? Also, I've found some inconsistencies in regular LBA support in the most recent versions (System Suite 2003, I think?), it seems that when they finally added support for LBA rather than only supporting CHS geometries, they left out a few of the bits having to do with "virtual geometry" support, as part of the "Advanced Recovery Feature" mode. (I think I've got that right, it's been some time since I last used that tool. It has been a lifesaver though, numerous times. It would be a shame if it were completely discontinued.)

I'm not sure what the status of the product is to be honest (I'll have to go peak), but yes, I'll be happy to send the right team the feedback.

Cheers,
Bill
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
39,616
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136
Thanks!!! VirtualLarry, you were right on it with your first stab - Norton Protected Recycle Bin (it's on 7 day hold). I guess I should turn that off since I always go Shift+Delete. I don't delete unless I'm sure. I figure I don't want a bunch of files piling up in a recycle bin. Sigh. Well, I have 18.4 GB free now and THAT mystery has been resolved.

Isn't there a way to turn it off for all drives? I had to do it one drive at a time - about a dozen.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: Muse Thanks!!! VirtualLarry, you were right on it with your first stab - Norton Protected Recycle Bin (it's on 7 day hold). I guess I should turn that off since I always go Shift+Delete. I don't delete unless I'm sure. I figure I don't want a bunch of files piling up in a recycle bin. Sigh. Well, I have 18.4 GB free now and THAT mystery has been resolved. Isn't there a way to turn it off for all drives? I had to do it one drive at a time - about a dozen.

Good call VL. :)