Windows is just not ready for the desktop

[silverpig]

I've used linux exclusively for several years now and am familiar with most of the distros, and very comfortable with both gentoo and ubuntu. I like how things work, I like how they're free, and I like how so much software is readily available to me.

My main job is working in a physics lab, but I also have a part time job on the weekends at a golf course. The people there are nice, but not the most computer inclined. They can use their programs just fine, but when a laptop becomes infected with over 200 viruses, trojans, and other malware, they call me. Oh, and I get to install and set up printers as well.

So after trying to clean it out with virus scanners and spybot/adaware/etc and failing miserably, I come to the conclusion that the only recourse is a full reformat and reinstall of the laptop's operating system. After messing around with safe mode and trying to get my USB key to be detected long enough to copy over the 30 office docs he needed, I was ready to reformat. I asked for the disc that came with the computer and find that it has been lost.

Now with linux, I'd have just gone to any distro site, picked any of the hundreds of mirrors and had a new cd, but not with windows. With this laptop I had to bring it home and try to find a cd. After failing to find and XP Home cd, I tried venturing out onto the internet. I eventually found a cd on some site; XP Home OEM. I figured this would work and went ahead.

The install was fine, the cdkey on the bottom of the laptop was accepted and I updated all the drivers without too much trouble. There however was the nagging little "This copy of windows is not yet activated" reminder, which I tried to take care of after setting up the wireless. Well apparently my cdkey (which I copied from the bottom of the laptop on the OEM sticker mind you) had something wrong with it (actually, it seems as though the cd I downloaded off of the internet was the culprit, but what else could I do?). I gave up for the time being and returned the laptop to the guy at work, functional for the next 30 days.

Fast forward to today, 14 days later when I finally get around to fixing activation issue. I got walked through the procedure on the laptop and was told to phone a number and give a long number code to a computerized voice. Now, I'm a native english speaker, I don't have an accent, and I enunciate clearly, but the voice kept cutting me off telling me it couldn't understand what numbers I was saying. After keying the numbers in, the voice told me that there was a problem and that I would be transferred to a customer service representative.

I waited and was connected to ?>$preet who was in a c><$ ><#$ter in India. The qua*%)#$ of the co%)#($tion was ter*#$le to the po%)(# where I had to rep#($) the number to her 7 ti$)(# $)($#)(# I $)(# disconnected.

*sigh*

I dialed the number again, the computer lady couldn't understand me again, and so I resorted to keying in the product ID. The bloody thing couldn't understand this either, and tried to connect me to $)#(preet again. It didn't take long for that call to be dropped, and I decided to give up.

Printer installation: IE7 has this search bar which is similar to firefox and opera's default google search bar, but IE7 uses the MSN search. I, being familiar with my linux apps typed in the name and model of the printer and the word "driver" and hit enter. A bunch of junk about reviews and stores trying to get me to buy a new printer came up, at which point I went to google, typed the same thing in and got straight to the product page at HP. A few clicks later and I was installing a checker program to see if I needed the driver. Kinda funny how my printers seem to just "work" in linux. *shrug* Oh well.

So this checker program popped up a window saying it needed my permission to install when IE7 crashed. I went through the process a second time only to find out that in order to properly install the printer, I would first have to unplug it (huh?), run the install program, and then plug the printer in halfway through (ready... wait... wait... NOW!). I had to repeat the steps a third time to get it to work.

So I have a printer working on a laptop which was decimated by viruses, causing me to install an operating system I had to obtain somewhat shadily (even though the key and license are legit), which still doesn't work because it can't be activated due to microsoft not being able to use a phone.


Cliffs:

1. Laptop at work decimated by viruses.
2. I get called to look at it.
3. Antivirus/antispyware programs fail.
4. Guy lost original OEM cd.
5. I have to download shady copy of XP Home.
6. Install goes okay.
7. Activation does not.
8a. Activation on phone - robot lady can't understand me
8b. Lady in India's phone messes up.
8c. Robot lady again can't understand me, nor can she understand a touchtone phone.
8d. See 8b.
8e. *ARGH*
9. Okay, let's set up the printer.
10. MSN search in IE7 sucks.
11. IE7 crashes.
12. I have to unplug the printer to install it?
13. Please let me install linux.


DISCLAIMER

Okay, it's pretty obvious that people here aren't understanding my post. First of all, I know how to use windows. I used it exclusively for several years, and then dual booted for several after that. I can install windows, I can reformat, I can install programs, set up printers and networks and have rarely had virus trouble. As of now that laptop I was working on works perfectly. The printers work, activation has been completed and there are no viruses.

The point of this post is to show that those griping about linux in similar posts do so out of being used to something else. With linux I probably wouldn't have to mess with the printer, download drivers, wouldn't have to activate, and wouldn't have had virus problems in the first place.

 

[mechBgon]

You being a Linux guy, I hope you applied security concept #1 and set the user up with a non-root account. It's a very valuable layer of defense, as long as the people with Admin access don't go downloading & installing stuff they shouldn't.

Other tips:

1) if you have to talk to the robot, key in the code on the telephone's number keys if you're not being understood well by the voice recognition.

2) for gosh sakes do not install HP's junky detector thingie. What are you, some kind of noOb? Just go to HP.com, download the driver for the product and install it. This isn't that difficult, the domain name is just two letters long, eh

3) if you don't like the Live search... see the lil' down-arrow next to it? Click that and change it to Google search if you want. Or maybe AOL


Out of curiosity, what sorts of viruses and spyware did the laptop have? Remember some of the family names of the stuff it was infected with? There's some pretty tough stuff out there...

 

[hasu]

C'mon, Cool down!
Windows is ruling the desktop world and you think it is not ready yet !!

I struggle with Linux whenever something doesn't work in it. Just 5 minutes back I lost my wireless connection (I switched off router inadvertently) and I really struggled to get the network re-connect. Since I always use GUI (wherever possible) I had to dig all over the place to find the option to re-connect! It is all about your acquaintance!!

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
You being a Linux guy, I hope you applied security concept #1 and set the user up with a non-root account. It's a very valuable layer of defense, as long as the people with Admin access don't go downloading & installing stuff they shouldn't.

Other tips:

1) if you have to talk to the robot, key in the code on the telephone's number keys if you're not being understood well by the voice recognition.

2) for gosh sakes do not install HP's junky detector thingie. What are you, some kind of noOb? Just go to HP.com, download the driver for the product and install it. This isn't that difficult, the domain name is just two letters long, eh

3) if you don't like the Live search... see the lil' down-arrow next to it? Click that and change it to Google search if you want. Or maybe AOL


Out of curiosity, what sorts of viruses and spyware did the laptop have? Remember some of the family names of the stuff it was infected with? There's some pretty tough stuff out there...

Don't worry, I'm pretty capable with windows too, I'm making a partially sarcastic post mirroring windows users' attempts at linux.

1. I did try keying the number in. That's how I succeeded the first time, and yet it still failed the second time.

2. Yeah I know I could have gone to hp.com, but the search bar is there and my experience with google is I can just type in the printer model and go straight to the download page. It just saves a few clicks. Oh, and the check program was the only option available. I selected "download driver" and the only option was to run that other program. This was meant to comment on how I didn't have to install anything in linux.

3. Yeah, I know. I was mainly commenting on how "things just work" like the windows users say when they find openoffice doesn't save to .doc by default.

I can't remember the names of the viruses off hand anymore. It seemed like cleaning some of them out just allowed others to run more rampant.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: hasu
C'mon, Cool down!
Windows is ruling the desktop world and you think it is not ready yet !!

I struggle with Linux whenever something doesn't work in it. Just 5 minutes back I lost my wireless connection (I switched off router inadvertently) and I really struggled to get the network re-connect. Since I always use GUI (wherever possible) I had to dig all over the place to find the option to re-connect! It is all about your acquaintance!!

There is a MAJOR difference between "ruling" by choice and "ruling" by force.

In the past 2 decades, you had no choice but to buy a computer with Windows on it, due to licensing agreements between Microsoft and computer vendors.

I have to salute them in their business creativity. In business, they have no equal. However, speaking from a technical perspective, Windows does not fit all the requirements of everyone on the planet. As much as it tries to, for many things, Windows just doesn't fit the bill.

Many folks use Windows are content using it because they don't know any better. Do they care? No. To them, problems with computers is just a normal part of life. However, after all the time they spent learning Windows, they rather not waste their time learning something else (happens to many). Is that bad? All depends on what field they are in.

 

[stash]

Many folks use Windows are content using it because they don't know any better. Do they care? No. To them, problems with computers is just a normal part of life.

You forgot those of us who don't have problems in Windows. For the most part, ****** just works, and I've never gotten hit with any malware. *shrug*

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: stash

Many folks use Windows are content using it because they don't know any better. Do they care? No. To them, problems with computers is just a normal part of life.

You forgot those of us who don't have problems in Windows. For the most part, ****** just works, and I've never gotten hit with any malware. *shrug*

Same here........

As a matter of fact, I just spent 2 hours trying to get sound working with Ubuntu on my Toshiba notebook..... it still does not work, apparently alsa will not incorporate a fix to my problem until the final version of a build that is currently in release candidate state. It also gives me error messages due to the TI 5 in 1 card reader (known problem with my model) and the startup hangs for 5 minutes due to this.

[*]I do not have any problems with Windows XP Pro (and on the rare occasion that something goes wrong, I am able to fix it quickly myself)
[*]It rarely locks up (probably locks up about once a month tops, usually due to a poorly coded EA game)
[*]I do not get infected with viruses / spyware because I take the proper security measures
[*]XP works with all of my games
[*]XP works perfectly with my Microsoft applications (Visual Studio and Microsoft Office)
[*]I do not have to fool with WINE to run the applications that I need
[*]I do not have to jump through hoops to install drivers
[*]XP is easier to use (and thus saves time)
[*]I do not have to enter my password whenever I try to do something when I am logged in as administrator
[*]I can use a graphical explorer rather than a command prompt for just about any task
[*]XP works with all of my hardware (see sound issue above)
[*]I spend 2 minutes tops on the phone to activate windows (even with my heavy southern Mississippi accent)
[*]I cannot recall the last time that IE 7 has crashed (and you can change to google from live search, you know)
[*]People that are unfamiliar with computers (like you mentioned in the OP) should always be set up to use a limited account
[*]I do not have to disconnect my Dell laser printer to install the drivers for it (although I did not have to in Linux either, which did not even have a driver for it, but I still managed to get it to work printing black and white in Linux using a generic driver, XP has a driver and can print in color as well).

Do I hate Linux? No
Do I love Microsoft? No
I am going to use Linux as my primary operating system? Not anytime soon
Do I think Windows XP is superior to Linux? Each has its place

I am trying my best to learn how to use Linux properly, for I need to be well rounded and open minded to compete in the IT job market.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: stash

Many folks use Windows are content using it because they don't know any better. Do they care? No. To them, problems with computers is just a normal part of life.

You forgot those of us who don't have problems in Windows. For the most part, ****** just works, and I've never gotten hit with any malware. *shrug*

Don't forget those who are educated enough in running a computer that they view "problems" as minor hiccups and can fix them right away.

OR, are educated enough to avoid problems which occur on a periodic basis, ie, malware.

Just remember that not everyone is technically inclined.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: stash

Many folks use Windows are content using it because they don't know any better. Do they care? No. To them, problems with computers is just a normal part of life.

You forgot those of us who don't have problems in Windows. For the most part, ****** just works, and I've never gotten hit with any malware. *shrug*

Same here........

As a matter of fact, I just spent 2 hours trying to get sound working with Ubuntu on my Toshiba notebook..... it still does not work, apparently alsa will not incorporate a fix to my problem until the final version of a build that is currently in release candidate state. It also gives me error messages due to the TI 5 in 1 card reader (known problem with my model) and the startup hangs for 5 minutes due to this.

[*]I do not have any problems with Windows XP Pro
[*]It rarely locks up (probably locks up about once a month tops, usually due to a poorly coded EA game)
[*]I do not get infected with viruses / spyware because I take the proper security measures
[*]XP works with all of my games
[*]XP works perfectly with my Microsoft applications (Visual Studio and Microsoft Office)
[*]I do not have to fool with WINE to run the applications that I need
[*]I do not have to jump through hoops to install drivers
[*]XP is easier to use (and thus saves time)
[*]I do not have to enter my password whenever I try to do something when I am logged in as administrator
[*]I can use a graphical explorer rather than a command prompt for just about any task
[*]XP works with all of my hardware (see sound issue above)
[*]I spend 2 minutes tops on the phone to activate windows (even with my heavy southern Mississippi accent)
[*]I cannot recall the last time that IE 7 has crashed
[*]People that are unfamiliar with computers (like you mentioned in the OP) should always be set up to use a limited account
[*]I do not have to disconnect my Dell laser printer to install the drivers for it (although I did not have to in Linux either, which did not even have a driver for it, but I still managed to get it to work printing black and white in Linux using a generic driver, XP has a driver and can print in color as well).

Do I hate Linux? No
Do I love Microsoft? No
I am going to use Linux as my primary operating system? Not anytime soon
Do I think Windows XP is superior to Linux? Each has its place

I am trying my best to learn how to use Linux properly, as I need to be well rounded and open minded (but Apple can bite me) to compete in the IT job market.

Lock ups? You mean those exists?
What are viruses? Oh yeah, those windows thingies
Games, I'll give you that. But not everyone is interested in games
Well no sh!t XP works with all your Microsoft apps. Can you try to be a bit more creative here?
There are thousands of open source apps out there and I'm sure at least one has equivilant functionality to those from windows. Choose one.
So now you place the blame on Linux for lack of drivers? Why not the hardware vendors?
XP is easier to use? (depends what your perspective of easy is. I can get more done faster in Linux. I'd call that easier if I do say so myself)
Running as administration is not recommended. But hey, it's your pc
Personally, I can get stuff done FASTER using the command prompt then a graphical file manager. But if I
REALLY feel like it, I can also use konqueror (a linux file manager, yes, it does exist)
Sound card issues - see drivers. Best of luck to you on that one
I spent 0 minutes to activate Linux. It was so painless, so transparent, not even sure it happened.
PS: It takes me at least 15 mins to activiate Windows XP. Most it took me was 40 mins. I always seem to need to talk to customer rep.
IE7? That just gives me shivers. You actually use that crap? My sympathies.
I agree that people unfamiliar with computers should have a limited account. Unfortunately, admin account is set by default, hense folks tend to use it without bothering creating a limited account. It's mostly education which is required on that aspect.

Do I hate Linux? Sometimes. I'm being honest here. It sometimes is a hit and miss. But I will say it fits my requirements better then Windows does in many cases.
Do I hate Microsoft? I really don't care about them. People use what they want to use. I just try to educate people. To say that Microsoft Windows is user friendly because it owns 85-90 percent of the market is a bit naive in my opinion.

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: silverpig
Don't worry, I'm pretty capable with windows too, I'm making a partially sarcastic post mirroring windows users' attempts at linux.

That's what I get for not recharging my AT Forums Sarcasm Detector often enough

To them, problems with computers is just a normal part of life. However, after all the time they spent learning Windows, they rather not waste their time learning something else (happens to many). Is that bad? All depends on what field they are in.

I once had an IT job as your average all-around base-model I.T. drone. With about 65-80 computers running Win2000 & WinXP on a WinNT domain, in the hands of average office workers, for almost 5 years, I think I would've noticed if Windows desktop systems were that difficult to work with.

The employees all had non-Admin accounts and no access to the Admin privileges. Result: the systems stayed squeaky-clean and thus ran smoothly (up until my pengiun-hugging Pointy-Haired Boss demanded we install FireFox, anyway ). If there was a BSOD reported, it was a HDD going bad, period.

Granted, a well-cared-for business computer is very different from the average home user's Compaq Presario that's tottering along under the burden of Compaq's pre-installed babysitting stuff, plus everything else they can't keep their hands off of. So maybe you have a point about the Windows experience in that sense. There's a lot of junk that gets foisted on them and they don't know that it doesn't have to be like that.

IE7? That just gives me shivers. You actually use that crap? My sympathies.

Yeah, I use it for this stuff. IE7 on Vista is teh excellent.

I just try to educate people.

So do I, as you can see from the last link in my sig. It's a lot of work, and I don't make a cent doing it, so I hope it's helping someone

 

[silverpig]

[*]I do not have any problems with Windows XP Pro (and on the rare occasion that something goes wrong, I am able to fix it quickly myself)
Same here with linux.

[*]It rarely locks up (probably locks up about once a month tops, usually due to a poorly coded EA game)
I haven't had a linux lock up in years that wasn't hardware related.

[*]I do not get infected with viruses / spyware because I take the proper security measures
I just run linux and don't worry about it.

[*]XP works with all of my games
Linux works with mine

[*]XP works perfectly with my Microsoft applications (Visual Studio and Microsoft Office)
Linux works perfectly with open-source apps.

[*]I do not have to fool with WINE to run the applications that I need
Neither do I...

[*]I do not have to jump through hoops to install drivers
Neither do I. I did in windows (see OP).

[*]XP is easier to use (and thus saves time)
By familiarity perhaps. Linux is easier for me.

[*]I do not have to enter my password whenever I try to do something when I am logged in as administrator
You don't have to enter passwords if you log in as root in linux either.

[*]I can use a graphical explorer rather than a command prompt for just about any task
Same

[*]XP works with all of my hardware (see sound issue above)
Linux works with mine, most of the time I don't even have to install drivers

[*]I spend 2 minutes tops on the phone to activate windows (even with my heavy southern Mississippi accent)
I spend no time at all activating anything

[*]I cannot recall the last time that IE 7 has crashed (and you can change to google from live search, you know)
Google IE7 crash. It has virtually the same number of hits as firefox crash and opera crash despite being significantly younger.

[*]People that are unfamiliar with computers (like you mentioned in the OP) should always be set up to use a limited account
"Hi tech support? Yeah, I can't install anything."

[*]I do not have to disconnect my Dell laser printer to install the drivers for it (although I did not have to in Linux either, which did not even have a driver for it, but I still managed to get it to work printing black and white in Linux using a generic driver, XP has a driver and can print in color as well).
*shrug*

 

[RebateMonger]

What you are seeing here is basically caused by four things, which, unfortunately, ARE problems:

1) Operating Systems and Applications designed ten years ago, which emphasize ease-of-use over security.

2) The overwhelming popularity of Windows, which causes it to be the main target for anyone intent on taking over other people's PCs.

3) Lack of basic computer security education among users.

4) Microsoft's segmentation of it's OS distributions between OEM, SLP OEM, and Retail, resulting in multiple versions of Windows and its Activation Keys, which can cause lots of confusion and hassle when a System restoration is required.

Microsoft seems to be correcting some of these issues with Vista, especially 1) and 4).

 

[Schadenfroh]

A lil late to be getting into a Linux versus Windows discussion (and I really have no loyalties either way), so this is my last reply to clarify my previous post, feel free to grill me as I am still a bit of a linux noob (and probably tend to be biased to Microsoft mainly due to being more familiar with it, since I grew up using their products in both home and school):

Lock ups? You mean those exists?

Yes and they are caused by the great people at EA, VIA, Atari, and other software / hardware vendors mostly (although stock IE 7 or stock WMP 11 crashes are rather inexcusable)

But not everyone is interested in games

They are not the only interest of mine on the PC either (see Visual Studio), but I do enjoy them and unfortunately DirectX seems to be the dominant force, even though I would prefer things to go OpenGL so I would have more alternatives

Well no sh!t XP works with all your Microsoft apps. Can you try to be a bit more creative here?

Know of any native Linux Visual Basic IDEs? I need Visual Studio for my classes and on rare occasions when I am asked to write an Access database for certain places that use Microsoft Office exclusively. I can live without Visual C++, plenty of IDEs for that floating around. I actually prefer Dev C++ when writing console applications.

So now you place the blame on Linux for lack of drivers? Why not the hardware vendors?

For the same reason that so many people blame Microsoft for all of the viruses and crashes in the world (although that is directed more so at another unnamed group rather than Linux fans)

Running as administration is not recommended

I maintain and use a limited account in addition to my administrator account

IE7? That just gives me shivers. You actually use that crap? My sympathies.

I use Firefox as my primary browser due to AdBlock Plus and a few other plugins, but I do have to use IE 7 sometimes due to the occasional need of ActiveX.

PS: It takes me at least 15 mins to activiate Windows XP. Most it took me was 40 mins. I always seem to need to talk to customer rep.

I was speaking figuratively to express my quick and painless past experience with activation via phone. It does take a bit longer than two minutes to speak to the computer on the other end and enter in the code, usually when I do have to talk to a representative, I do not have to wait on hold long and it is very brief.

People that are unfamiliar with computers (like you mentioned in the OP) should always be set up to use a limited account
"Hi tech support? Yeah, I can't install anything."

That would probably be the same thing that tech support at Dell would hear if someone was to install Linux for the use of average Joe, "Hey tech support, I bought {x} at Wal-Mart and when I try to put it on my computer, it gives me some strange pop up about displaying and running and then it says invalid when I run it, I think I might need to redownload to the internet maybe?"



I have a dual boot setup with Ubuntu and I believe that it is a good operating system (and I really like the cost), I use it when I need to run my computer algebra software (linux version works better than the windows port of it), when I know I am primarily just going to be browsing the internet, or when I want to play around with Linux. I prefer having the best of both worlds rather than just using one or the other, especially since through my university Microsoft products are rather cheap

 

[bersl2]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
2) The overwhelming popularity of Windows, which causes it to be the main target for anyone intent on taking over other people's PCs.

This is justification for Security by Diversity of Implementation. No amount of resources being applied to one environment will eliminate all the bugs without further development grinding to a halt. Giving the vast majority of computers (who don't know what they're doing) the same implementation of software for a given task is asking for disaster.

I bring this up because diversity plays a similar role in another significant system, to which I wish to draw a parallel, namely the one that runs on the principle of Evolution by Natural Selection. That system's been pretty successful if you ask me.

Anyway, to get to what I originally wanted to say:

The moral of the story is that perspective changes perception. That seems obvious, but it sure doesn't shape our behavior.

 

[n0cmonkey]

This stupid debate again?

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
This stupid debate again?

Yeah, but it's the opposite this time.

 

[tcsenter]

OK, edited for my over-harshness. It seems the tone of the discussion was meant to be light and not meant too serious, so my response was inappropriate.

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: silverpig
...
12. I have to unplug the printer to install it?
...

best part :laugh:

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
...
[*]XP works perfectly with my Microsoft applications (Visual Studio and Microsoft Office)

...
Well no sh!t XP works with all your Microsoft apps. Can you try to be a bit more creative here?

Oh man, my side hurts I was laughing so hard after reading this

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

I use Firefox as my primary browser due to AdBlock Plus and a few other plugins, but I do have to use IE 7 sometimes due to the occasional website being lazily coded with Frontpage (and thus sometimes does not display properly, although this is getting a lot better) or when I use Microsoft update.

Hmm, you use IE 7 as a fallback from Firefox? I don't use IE 7 much but in evaluating it here at work, it seems IE7 doesn't work correctly on the same websites that Firefox does not work correctly on, and vice versa. However IE 6 WILL display those sites.

I'm not saying you are wrong by any means, I've just been keeping _IE6_ as my fallback, because IE7's rendering seems to be close to Firefox's rendering - in the good and the "bad" ways, though I use the term "bad" lightly because sites that don't render correctly are using IE6's bastardized specifications instead of legit w3c specifications that Firefox and IE7 conform to.

That would probably be the same thing that tech support at Dell would hear if someone was to install Linux for the use of average Joe, "Hey tech support, I bought {x} at Wal-Mart and when I try to put it on my computer, it gives me some strange pop up about displaying and running and then it says invalid when I run it, I think I might need to redownload to the internet maybe?"

This may come as a a shock to some people who have already labeled me a linux-fanboi (since if you say _any_one_thing_ positive about linux, some people automatically label you a Microsoft-hating communist linux-zealot), but... I actually like Vista's UAC much much better than Ubuntu's prompting for root access.

Reasons (you can skip this part if you don't care why
----------------------------------------------------
Vista: an administrator only has to click ok to get admin privileges
Vista: admin access doesn't require your own password (obviously I know my own password, I logged in with it).
Vista: when supporting limited users, if I need to do a quick something as admin, I can.
Ubuntu: Must type my own password, again, and again, and again.
Ubuntu: caches sudo access for a time, leaving a window for the 1337 haxxx0rs, theoretically.
Ubuntu: if working with a limited user, I have to log out to do a quick admin thing.
-----------------------------------------------------

UAC is so easy to work with and is a big step in security. I cringe every time I see these Vista "guides" and the first thing they tell you to do is to disable the UAC.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Brazen
Reasons (you can skip this part if you don't care why
----------------------------------------------------
Vista: an administrator only has to click ok to get admin privileges

sudo -s

Vista: admin access doesn't require your own password (obviously I know my own password, I logged in with it).

It depends on how you got access to the account. Was it through logging into the console, or was it through a client side exploit?

How does UAC authenticate on use?

Vista: when supporting limited users, if I need to do a quick something as admin, I can.
Ubuntu: Must type my own password, again, and again, and again.

Only because you didn't customize sudo.

Please see sudoers(5):

timestamp_timeout
Number of minutes that can elapse before sudo
will ask for a passwd again. The default is
5. Set this to 0 to always prompt for a pass-
word. If set to a value less than 0 the
user's timestamp will never expire. This can
be used to allow users to create or delete

And hell, check out the NOPASSWD option.

Ubuntu: caches sudo access for a time, leaving a window for the 1337 haxxx0rs, theoretically.

Set the timeout to be smaller then. For some reason on my Ubuntu install I have to reauthenticate for every terminal window I have open when using sudo (caches only follow the terminal window), so this may help against those 1337 hax0rz (who probably have their own cache of local privilege escalation exploits anyhow ).

Ubuntu: if working with a limited user, I have to log out to do a quick admin thing.

Read su(1).

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
(stuff)

I used to often give myself the NOPASSWD: ALL option before Ubuntu, when I had to set up sudo to begin with. I know, it would only take like 10 seconds to do it on Ubuntu and save myself from typing my password over and over, but 90% of what I work on are servers, and my servers don't need much maintenance once they are set up, beyond applying updates periodically.

I wonder, though, how that would work in Gnome with gksudo? Would it still ask you to click OK so you still have to grant the privileges, just without a password? I would hope it will still prompt; I'll should try this when I'm feeling less lazy.

As for using su on limited accounts, how would that work in Ubuntu's default setup? You need the root password, but there is no root password in Ubuntu (I suppose you could set one, if you think to do it beforehand).

I know, you can configure linux to do pretty much anything in a way capable of an operating system to do (did that sentence make sense?). Maybe this is just something I'm too lazy to tweak. So out of the box anyway, I nod this to Windows, but for customization options I will give the nod to Gnu.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
(stuff)

I used to often give myself the NOPASSWD: ALL option before Ubuntu, when I had to set up sudo to begin with. I know, it would only take like 10 seconds to do it on Ubuntu and save myself from typing my password over and over, but 90% of what I work on are servers, and my servers don't need much maintenance once they are set up, beyond applying updates periodically.

I wonder, though, how that would work in Gnome with gksudo? Would it still ask you to click OK so you still have to grant the privileges, just without a password? I would hope it will still prompt; I'll should try this when I'm feeling less lazy.

As for using su on limited accounts, how would that work in Ubuntu's default setup? You need the root password, but there is no root password in Ubuntu (I suppose you could set one, if you think to do it beforehand).

su admin_user -c "sudo command"

Forget root. ;0

I know, you can configure linux to do pretty much anything in a way capable of an operating system to do (did that sentence make sense?). Maybe this is just something I'm too lazy to tweak. So out of the box anyway, I nod this to Windows, but for customization options I will give the nod to Gnu.

sudo isn't gnu.

I don't care which one people cconsider better for whatever reasons. I have no opinion in the matter (having never used UAC I'm not entitled). I just wanted to point a couple of things out, none of which take more than 15 seconds to impliment.

 

[nweaver]

My problem with UAC versus SUDO is level of access...


Lets say I want user1 to have admin access to only do XY and Z....now, I CAN do that with GPO's, but it's much more difficult, and with UAC they have an ADMIN password.

With SUDO...lets say I want you to have the rights to restart the web server but that is it....easy, I can give you a whitlist of commands so that you can do that, and I don't have to give you a root (admin) password.

SUDO has SOOOOO much more customization and flexibility...but then, I usually feel that way in any Linux vs Windows debates...windows is the 10K lb gorilla...it moves slowly, but when it moves, everyone notices. I don't need/want that, I want lots of abilities and features in my OS, so I choose linux.

btw, imho troubleshooting linux >>> troubleshooting windows.

 

[Smilin]

Wow, dude do you really want to pull me into this thread? It sounds like you and your user are not ready to own a Windows computer. I'm going to go help some folks on some other threads then come back if I have time. For now, the cliff notes:

1. My Grandmother knows more about Windows than you and could have gotten this working.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: silverpig
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