Windows is 'collapsing,' Gartner analysts warn

Cygnus X1

Senior member
Sep 5, 2005
812
0
71
http://www.computerworld.com/a...asic&articleId=9076698



Cut'n'Paste...

By Gregg Keizer

April 10, 2008 (Computerworld) Calling the situation "untenable" and describing Windows as "collapsing," a pair of Gartner analysts yesterday said Microsoft Corp. must make radical changes to its operating system or risk becoming a has-been.

In a presentation at a Gartner-sponsored conference in Las Vegas, analysts Michael Silver and Neil MacDonald said Microsoft has not responded to the market, is overburdened by nearly two decades of legacy code and decisions, and faces serious competition on a whole host of fronts that will make Windows moot unless the software developer acts.

"For Microsoft, its ecosystem and its customers, the situation is untenable," said Silver and MacDonald in their prepared presentation, titled "Windows Is Collapsing: How What Comes Next Will Improve."

Among Microsoft's problems, the pair said, is Windows' rapidly-expanding code base, which makes it virtually impossible to quickly craft a new version with meaningful changes. That was proved by Vista, they said, when Microsoft -- frustrated by lack of progress during the five-year development effort on the new operating -- hit the "reset" button and dropped back to the more stable code of Windows Server 2003 as the foundation of Vista.

"This is a large part of the reason [why] Windows Vista delivered primarily incremental improvements," they said. In turn, that became one of the reasons why businesses pushed back Vista deployment plans. "Most users do not understand the benefits of Windows Vista or do not see Vista as being better enough than Windows XP to make incurring the cost and pain of migration worthwhile."

Other analysts, including those at Gartner rival Forrester Research Inc., have highlighted the slow move toward Vista. Last month, Forrester said that by the end of 2007 only 6.3% of 50,000 enterprise computer users it surveyed were working with Vista. What gains Vista made during its first year, added Forrester, appeared to be at the expense of Windows 2000; Windows XP's share hardly budged.

The monolithic nature of Windows -- although Microsoft talks about Vista's modularity, Silver and MacDonald said it doesn't go nearly far enough -- not only makes it tough to deliver a worthwhile upgrade, but threatens Microsoft in the mid- and long-term.

Users want a smaller Windows that can run on low-priced -- and low-powered -- hardware. And increasingly, users work with "OS-agnostic applications," the two analysts said in their presentation. It takes too long for Microsoft to build the next version, the company is being beaten by others in the innovation arena, and in the future -- perhaps as soon as the next three years -- it's going to have trouble competing with Web applications and small, specialized devices.

"Apple introduced its iPhone running OS X, but Microsoft requires a different product on handhelds because Windows Vista is too large, which makes application development, support and the user experience all more difficult," according to Silver and MacDonald.

"Windows as we know it must be replaced," they said in their presentation.

Their advice to Microsoft took several forms, but one road they urged the software giant to take was virtualization. "We envision a very modular and virtualized world," said the researchers, who spelled out a future where virtualization -- specifically a hypervisor -- is standard on client as well as server versions of Windows.

"An OS, in this case Windows, will ride atop the hypervisor, but it will be much thinner, smaller and modular than it is today. Even the Win32 API set should be a module that can be deployed to maintain support for traditional Windows applications on some devices, but other may not have that module installed."


Backward compatibility with older applications should also be supported via virtualization. "Backward compatibility is a losing proposition for Microsoft; while it keeps people locked into Windows, it also often keeps them from upgrading," said the analysts. "[But] using built-in virtualization, compatibility modules could be layered atop Win32, or not, as needed."

Silver and MacDonald also called on Microsoft to make it easier to move to newer versions of Windows, re-think how it licenses Windows and come up with a truly modular operating system that can grow or shrink as needed.

Microsoft has taken some new steps with Windows, although they don't necessarily match what the Gartner analysts recommended. For instance, the company recently granted Windows XP Home a reprieve from its June 30 OEM cut-off, saying it would let computer makers install the older, smaller operating system on ultra-cheap laptops through the middle of 2010.

It will also add a hypervisor to Windows -- albeit the server version -- in August, and there are signs that it will launch Windows 7, the follow-on to Vista, late next year rather than early 2010.
 

Continuity28

Golden Member
Jul 2, 2005
1,653
0
76
"Windows as we know it must be replaced," they said in their presentation.

Their advice to Microsoft took several forms, but one road they urged the software giant to take was virtualization.

Of course this is the advice given, but I thought this was already precisely what Microsoft had in store for Windows 7?

Am I mistaken?
 

tommo123

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2005
2,617
48
91
maybe they have more plans than they said for singularity? an OS for the 'what if' scenario?
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Here is the *key*

"This is a large part of the reason [why] Windows Vista delivered primarily incremental improvements," they said. In turn, that became one of the reasons why businesses pushed back Vista deployment plans. "Most users do not understand the benefits of Windows Vista or do not see Vista as being better enough than Windows XP to make incurring the cost and pain of migration worthwhile."
it is not the fault of Vista nor is it the fault of MS customers

sh!tty PR .. Awful marketing .. one of the worst OS launches in MS' history.. ... Vista is "OK" they are just unable to sell it ... MS IS going down the tubes; maybe they should 'give it away' as a prelude to Vista 7

it is a *perception* problem .. maybe Bill should use his old friend Steve's ["new and improved"] Hype to sell it .. and give his marketing department a thorough Enema

it is very similar to formerly arrogant Sony launching their PS3 with out a Plan and without a clue. Sony *depended* on their PS2 fans to "jump" at a chance to spend $650 on .. a technological marvel Sony's marketing was too stupid to sell. It did not "sell itself" .. Only by SLASHING the price and moving the PR emphasis to "Blue Ray" [and winning the Hi-def war] was Sony finally able to sell PS3 .. better luck Sony - IF there is a next time with PS4

Same with MS .. the PR dumbsh!ts could not figure how to "sell" Vista
- here we are .. better luck with Vista 7, MS .. get your bean counters and Risk managers to analyze what went *wrong* - i just did it superficially for free :p
 

seemingly random

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2007
5,277
0
0
Why does Gartner exist? How do they get their money? Have they ever made a correct prediction?

I seem to remember them (and Forrester) at the brink of bankruptcy some years ago.
 

VinDSL

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2006
4,869
1
81
www.lenon.com
Originally posted by: apoppin
.. the PR dumbsh!ts could not figure how to "sell" Vista - here we are .. better luck with Vista 7, MS

There's an (overlooked) lesson to be learned here...

I don't want to turn this into a ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz rant, so I'll keep it short - read between the lines.

I'm typing this post on Firefox 3 Beta 5 - updated daily. Why?

Mozilla allows ANYBODY to download alphas, betas, nightlys, yada, yada, yada.

MS does the same thing, but to a V special select group of ppl...

This is how Vista got off to a bad start!

Without mentioning names, there are certain ppl (some in these very forums) that lead a privileged existence - the rest of 'us' are treated like red-headed stepchildren by MS.

Vista SP1 was yet another example of this failed policy of princes & paupers!

"For Microsoft, its ecosystem and its customers..."

Horsesh!t !!!

Microsoft, et al, *thinks* acts like a bunch of feudal lords, and 'us' their surfs! It's all too Machiavellian - that's THE problem!

We're not part of their ^%$& 'ecosystem' or anything else - they're part of 'ours' - and they better start acting like it if they want to survive.
 

BehindEnemyLines

Senior member
Jul 24, 2000
979
0
76
Originally posted by: VinDSL
Originally posted by: apoppin
.. the PR dumbsh!ts could not figure how to "sell" Vista - here we are .. better luck with Vista 7, MS

There's an (overlooked) lesson to be learned here...

I don't want to turn this into a ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz rant, so I'll keep it short - read between the lines.

I'm typing this post on Firefox 3 Beta 5 - updated daily. Why?

Mozilla allows ANYBODY to download alphas, betas, nightlys, yada, yada, yada.

MS does the same thing, but to a V special select group of ppl...

This is how Vista got off to a bad start!

Without mentioning names, there are certain ppl (some in these very forums) that lead a privileged existence - the rest of 'us' are treated like red-headed stepchildren by MS.

Vista SP1 was yet another example of this failed policy of princes & paupers!

"For Microsoft, its ecosystem and its customers..."

Horsesh!t !!!

Microsoft, et al, *thinks* acts like a bunch of feudal lords, and 'us' their surfs! It's all too Machiavellian - that's THE problem!

We're not part of their ^%$& 'ecosystem' or anything else - they're part of 'ours' - and they better start acting like it if they want to survive.

You are essentially alpha testing a web browser versus an entire operating system - it's much more complex. The last thing Microsoft needs is some average joe saying how shitty the alphas are. I will agree with you for betas and maybe even nightly builds. But I just don't see them spending that much effort compiling the OS every night, even if it means compiling only the changed sources.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
14
81
www.markbetz.net
Mozilla allows ANYBODY to download alphas, betas, nightlys, yada, yada, yada.

MS does the same thing, but to a V special select group of ppl...

This is how Vista got off to a bad start!

You're not right and you're not wrong. Most of the replies in this thread will proabably have some grain of truth in them. I would only ask that fans of the FOSS model of openness and collaboration stop for a sec and consider the differences between the two communities. The Linux gates are open, and very smart people stroll through them on a regular basis. If MS opens the gates in comes the entire current population of Disneyworld. Which leads me to...

"For Microsoft, its ecosystem and its customers..."

Horsesh!t !!!

Microsoft, et al, *thinks* acts like a bunch of feudal lords, and 'us' their surfs! It's all too Machiavellian - that's THE problem!

You're being picky. There's nothing grandly illuminating about the phrase the writers chose (and I assume it was the writers, and not MS, that chose it). Microsoft certainly has an ecosystem, both practical and economic. If you don't like the word "ecosystem" and would rather the writers had spelled out "user base and corporate customers" then drop them a note. 'Ecosystem' obviously sounds much more new media sexy.

 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
2
0
"Apple introduced its iPhone running OS X, but Microsoft requires a different product on handhelds because Windows Vista is too large, which makes application development, support and the user experience all more difficult," according to Silver and MacDonald.

the iphone os is identical to a mac pro? can anyone confirm?
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Why do people pay any attention to Gartner?

Who?
:confused:

probably because the OP posted a link? :p

rose.gif


At least the KEY Part of their analysis is correct:

"Most users do not understand the benefits of Windows Vista or do not see Vista as being better enough than Windows XP to make incurring the cost and pain of migration worthwhile."

the rest is *fluff* .. most analysts are like that when they don't really have much to say - they USE a LOT of words to say just one thing many ways; maybe it's so only the smart [or dullest] people can figure it out [doubtful] - or they else they get paid for each word [more likely]. ;)
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Why do people pay any attention to Gartner?

QFT.

EDIT: If 'collapsing' is what they term 85%+ market share, I'm betting all corporate America hopes for 'collapse'!
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Heh, those analysts talks a big game but actually don't know $hit about technology. I's be the last person to side with MS, but virtualization is the answer? come on, now they want to add another layer to the OS that is most used in server environment and most consumer won't care for?

I don't think MS has anything to worry about. They have always been following instead of leading in the technology department, their code is bloated and their OS is not the most stable or secure. But they still dominate, why? cause every software/hardware under the sun work with Windows, and there is no other alternative. Those analyst can praise Mac and bash Windows all they want, but people will still use Windows, and this won't change until 99% of hardware/software works with Mac OS or Linux. And people will move to Vista eventually when MS stop supporting XP, and most hardware/software are designed/tested for Vista. It's just a matter of time.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: mechBgon
We seriously need a tinfoil-hat smilie around here.

new avatars also .. *bug* them for me please!

my cat is cross-eyed

. . .and i want a Jackal :p
-or an Egyptian god with the 4 heads
:laugh:

N-E-W-S


Conspiracies are real

welcome to the Matrices

 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
This is exactly what Microsoft has already said. It's like watching a bunch of firefighters put out a fire and walking up to one of them and saying, "You should do something about that fire".
1. Everyone already knows this.
2. The person/people you're telling it to already know this.

Useless...
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: XZeroII
This is exactly what Microsoft has already said. It's like watching a bunch of firefighters put out a fire and walking up to one of them and saying, "You should do something about that fire".
1. Everyone already knows this.
2. The person/people you're telling it to already know this.

Useless...

not really .. you'd be surprised .. it took own OWN analysis to tell Sony to Cut the Price on the PS3 and concentrate on selling Blu-ray - that they had "missed" how to SELL their OWN product

. . . XBox360 and PS3 ARE *Doomed*
[it doesn't really get good or "going" till around page 6 when everything starts to "click"; video is a hard place to analyze anything]

If you don't believe me, see how they *answer* me using their official and unofficial PR to try and discredit my analysis .. after they figure it out - then they adopt it. i was just "genesis" for the analysis here - so many others took it and ran off to their blogs :p
:roll:

.. and i never even got a PS3 for my accurate on-the-fly analysis that pinpointed their screw-up .. and the way to "fix" it .. maybe it was the "way" i said it - kinda rudely, looking back - too bad.
- it's the last time i ever suggest anything for Sony

rose.gif


oh .. MS is in the same spot with Vista - due to Supreme Arrogance and sh!tty PR - but Bill would have to pay me for an analysis to fix it .. they are no longer free.
 

RebateMonger

Elite Member
Dec 24, 2005
11,586
0
0
All companies eventually fail. It's inevitable.

But, compared to the rest of the world, both governments and corporations, Microsoft actually works pretty well. For now.
 

EarthwormJim

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 2003
3,239
0
76
Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
"Apple introduced its iPhone running OS X, but Microsoft requires a different product on handhelds because Windows Vista is too large, which makes application development, support and the user experience all more difficult," according to Silver and MacDonald.

the iphone os is identical to a mac pro? can anyone confirm?

The iPhone doesn't use an x86 processor, so I there's no way it's identical.
 

Slappi

Member
Dec 7, 2002
72
31
86
Originally posted by: VinDSL
Originally posted by: apoppin
.. the PR dumbsh!ts could not figure how to "sell" Vista - here we are .. better luck with Vista 7, MS

There's an (overlooked) lesson to be learned here...

I don't want to turn this into a ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz rant, so I'll keep it short - read between the lines.

I'm typing this post on Firefox 3 Beta 5 - updated daily. Why?

Mozilla allows ANYBODY to download alphas, betas, nightlys, yada, yada, yada.

MS does the same thing, but to a V special select group of ppl...

This is how Vista got off to a bad start!

Without mentioning names, there are certain ppl (some in these very forums) that lead a privileged existence - the rest of 'us' are treated like red-headed stepchildren by MS.

Vista SP1 was yet another example of this failed policy of princes & paupers!

"For Microsoft, its ecosystem and its customers..."

Horsesh!t !!!

Microsoft, et al, *thinks* acts like a bunch of feudal lords, and 'us' their surfs! It's all too Machiavellian - that's THE problem!

We're not part of their ^%$& 'ecosystem' or anything else - they're part of 'ours' - and they better start acting like it if they want to survive.

Do you by any chance come from a small town and cling to guns and religion?
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
he has a many, many good points. Ironically...he could've written that 5+ years ago also and it still would've applied. (Eg. too much dependancy on legacy code etc..etc...)
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Slappi
Originally posted by: VinDSL
Originally posted by: apoppin
.. the PR dumbsh!ts could not figure how to "sell" Vista - here we are .. better luck with Vista 7, MS

There's an (overlooked) lesson to be learned here...

I don't want to turn this into a ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz rant, so I'll keep it short - read between the lines.

I'm typing this post on Firefox 3 Beta 5 - updated daily. Why?

Mozilla allows ANYBODY to download alphas, betas, nightlys, yada, yada, yada.

MS does the same thing, but to a V special select group of ppl...

This is how Vista got off to a bad start!

Without mentioning names, there are certain ppl (some in these very forums) that lead a privileged existence - the rest of 'us' are treated like red-headed stepchildren by MS.

Vista SP1 was yet another example of this failed policy of princes & paupers!

"For Microsoft, its ecosystem and its customers..."

Horsesh!t !!!

Microsoft, et al, *thinks* acts like a bunch of feudal lords, and 'us' their surfs! It's all too Machiavellian - that's THE problem!

We're not part of their ^%$& 'ecosystem' or anything else - they're part of 'ours' - and they better start acting like it if they want to survive.

Do you by any chance come from a small town and cling to guns and religion?

it doesn't matter where you "come from" :p

it matters where you are now

Guns and Religion
:music: Welcome to the Bungle :music:

 

seemingly random

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2007
5,277
0
0
...
In a presentation at a Gartner-sponsored conference in Las Vegas, analysts Michael Silver and Neil MacDonald said Microsoft has not responded to the market, is overburdened by nearly two decades of legacy code and decisions, ...
At what point does code become legacy code? Take for example the supposedly freshly written memory management code in vista.

Also, is a legacy product the same as legacy code? For example, assume the ip stack in vista is the same as that was in xp.