Windows 98 Networking Question

[tkistre]

At my wife's school, they have a computer lab with 22 PCs all running Win98SE. They are all networked Pier to Pier, as is the rest of the school (appr. 150 PC's). As that goes, they can actually see other computers in the entire Parish (County) School Sytem. All PC's have access to a main computer in the lab to save documents to, since it has a large hard drive. This hard drive is no where near full. Here is my question...

The kids in my wife's class are making personal portfolios as web pages. They have also made personal PowerPoint shows. All of these are being saved to the main computer in the lab. More times than not, after they have done work on them, when they try to save them to the main computer, either the program or the whole PC they are working on locks up. Matter of fact, this also happens sometimes when you are actually opening these files. For the fact that this only happens when going through the network, I assume it is a network problem. I don't know if it is too much traffic or what. Most of the PC's the kids work on are at minumum: 128mb memory, Celeron 500, Intel or 3Com network adapters running TCP/IP on automatic settings (School Board requirement), Win98SE, Office 2000. Some of the PC's are actually heftier than that.

Is there anything I could look for or do to help this situation? Is this just too much traffic for Pier to Pier enviroment? Would it help if I made all of my wife's PC's (9 PC's) in their own workgroup and made them save their files to one of her PC's instead?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Lord Evermore]

The peer to peer network doesn't mean a whole lot. It only means that each computer is able to act as a client and a server -- each computer accepts inbound connections if anybody else wants to look at the shared folders. There isn't any activity on the network other than announcements of a computer's NetBIOS name when it boots up, unless someone connects to a shared folder. Even then, the traffic level shouldn't result in the computer locking up trying to transfer a file.

If none of the machines are being used to share files, if everyone saves their files to the main computer when they're done for the day and never needs to transfer them between computers, then file sharing can simply be turned off entirely on each machine. They don't need to have file/printer sharing enabled in order to download files from the server, it only needs to be turned on if computer A needs to get a file from computer B; only the server needs it turned on. (The computers act only as a client in this way; they then turn into a server as well when you enable sharing.) Netware is really the only OS that still works primarily on the client/server basis in a local network. The only reason each machine might need to be sharing files is so an administrator can easily check the contents of each machine to make sure they don't have anything illicit on them.

Are the kids reading and saving directly to the shared folder on the server? Or do they first copy the file from the server to the local machine, edit and save it, then copy the new version back to the server? If they're saving directly to the server, it may be due to the applications just having to deal with the much slower network transfer of the file rather than saving locally. Do they lock up and stay that way, or does the lockup stop after any length of time?

 

[Carapace]

It's actually peer to peer, as in all computers are equal (no server).

First off, change the so called "servers" role from workstation to server. Been a long time since I did this in Win 98 hopefully someone here can refresh my memory. What this will do is optimize the computer for network traffic vs foreground applications.

If you are using the NetBEUI protocol.............DON'T! NetBEUI is a very chatty protocol (meaning it broadcasts a lot) and 150 nodes is way too many to have on a NetBEUI network (this is just my opinion, hopefully most will agree.)

If possible, put each classroom or dept on it's own switch, this will cut down on broadcast traffic throughout the LAN.

Wow, 150 nodes on a network can be classified as a "large" LAN. If all of those nodes are hammering on one workstation constantly.....I can see where there could be troubles.

 

[tkistre]

Hey "Lord Evermore," I'll have to check on the "file/printer sharing" to see if it is enabled. I can see where that would cause some problems traffic wise. I thought I had read at one time that "Peer to Peer" was good for say 10-20 PC's, but after that, you should switch to a "Client/Server" type network. That isn't going to happen on the school's budget. The kids are reading and saving directly to the shared folder on the server. They are "not" saving them on their PC and copying to the server. My wife said that occasionally the lockup stops after a length of time. Hard to say since the kids generally do not wait a long time before resetting the PC. She claims to her, it almost acts as though it was low on memory when the lockup begins. No errors or BSOD, but objects on screen start closing one at a time, very slowly, while it's saving and then locks up. Or when you're opening the file, it opens slowly and then locks up.

Hey "Carapace," they are Peer to Peer. They are using TCP/IP not NetBeui. Each classroom does have a switch and not a hub. Though there is probably about 150 PC's on the school network, there probably isn't more than 10 or so PC's actually opening or saving files from the server at a time, and not at the same time, if you know what I mean. I'll have to check on the status of computer's role to see if they are set to server.

Again, I was wondering if it would help if I made all of my wife's PC's (9 PC's) in their own workgroup and made them save their files to one of her PC's instead? I realize in one way it's the same thing, but there would be less network distance and traffic?

 

[RustyNale]

Originally posted by: Carapace
First off, change the so called "servers" role from workstation to server. Been a long time since I did this in Win 98 hopefully someone here can refresh my memory. .

Right click on my computer-->properties--->performance-->file system--> open the drop down menu and pick network server.

 

[Lord Evermore]

Switches don't stop broadcasts. Switches forward all broadcasts. They just don't flood traffic with a specific destination to all ports like a hub. When they receive a broadcast, they forward it to all ports, including ports to other switches. The only broadcast traffic SHOULD be announcements of NetBIOS names (Windows Networking uses NetBIOS over TCP/IP now).

I think the problem is simply that the kids aren't waiting long enough. For some reason, applications saving a file over a network to another machine is slower by a HUGE amount than if they just saved it locally then moved the file back onto the server in Windows Explorer. I'd bet that the machines aren't actually locking up, they're just slowed down severely and the kids don't wait.

The number of switches it has to pass through to reach the server wouldn't be an issue, unless there really is so much traffic to that server on a continuous basis that its own network connection is being maxed out. In that case, it isn't even necessary to change workgroups, just make one machine on each switch the "local server" that the kids save their work on. Being in a different workgroup won't change the amount of broadcast traffic.

 

[carolinaviking]

i agree with lord evermore...when i first read of your issues, the first thing that popped into my head was that the file was being saved to the "server" but it was just taking a while and the kids were shutting down before it finished saving. also, this is too big for a peer-to-peer network, regardless of how few computers are connecting at one time. set the main brain as a server. putting a main storage computer in each classroom that backs up to the brain at the end of the day is a good idea, too. that way, the data gets saved faster and gets retrieved faster, too. plus it is a good backup for their projects.

 

[tkistre]

 

[tkistre]

Thanks for all the help. I didn't realize till this morning I'll be out of town for a week and then school will be closed the week after for EASTER. It will most likely be two weeks before I check everything suggested and try them out. I just finished printing everything up. Assuming the post is still here, I'll try and update. Thanks again for the ideas!

 

[Carapace]

Lord Evermore,

I guess our definitions of broadcasts somewhat differ. Hubs forward data to all nodes on a LAN, and a switch only forwards it to the intended node. Now I understand that this is not considered broadcast traffic by TCP/IP definitions, but when data from one PC hits all nodes on a network.........it's a broadcast (and the devil) in my book.

I also haven't worked with a normal switch in quite some time. We use layer 3 switches (almost a router, but not quite), which do stop broadcast traffic. I just caught myself assuming that all switches work like a layer 3.

Anyway, the only point I was trying to make was use switches.....cheaper than routers, more effective than hubs.

 

[Lord Evermore]

When the traffic goes to all ports simply due to the "repeater" nature, it's a flood. Broadcast implies the device inspected the packets and determined they should go to all ports.

 

[Carapace]

As I said above, I tend to use the term broadcast very loosely. Nonetheless, I still think everyone got the point, and a learned the differences between a flood and broadcast.

Thanks for the lesson, I must have missed that when I was sleeping in my TCP/IP course.