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Windows 8 plans leaked

To be honest, I wouldn't get too worked up in either direction at this point. In spite of MS's intentions to speed up development to get closer to a 3 year Windows cycle, the impression I'm getting is that they're still feeling out a number of ideas rather than listing features Windows 8 absolutely will have.
 
Is it just me or did that presentation seem very weak? That looked no better than the average presentation from college kids. I expected more out Microsoft.
 
agreed. it did seem weak. but then again they are pretty early in development and i think that this one wasn't meant for a fancy presentation but as more of info type powerpoint for internal use.
 
My predication is that in the coming decade what we know today as computing will take two Routes.

1. Serious use of computers for Work, Science, and other useful functional outcomes (Like the way we grow up from the 1970 mainframes into the end of 20th century PCs).

2. iComputing, iEntertaining, to the iMasses. Big part of what was presented in the link (if indeed it is genuine) is Microsoft starting to focused on the second direction.


Nothing is wrong with taking such Routes as long as it does not creating a society of 50 years old and above eternal obnoxious teenagers. :awe:-😵-😵-😛-🙄



😎
 
I like the How apple does it , slide. "this is something people will pay for !"

There are missing slides from the first link. This link has them all including the slides talking about windowsstore.com where MS hopes to be like the apple store and everyone gets there applications there.

http://msftkitchen.com/
 
It's still way early, but more "dumbed down" is pushing me closer to running Linux full time. I have a Win7 install I'm not using, so I may dual boot that with Ubuntu. I can then game on 7, and it should be supported for a long while, and do my primary computing on Ubuntu.
 
Wasn't M$ suppose to update the NTFS file system / create a new file system with Windows 7? What happened to those plans.
 
They've been talking about and rumoring a new file system for ages now. We'll see i guess.. it was apparently pretty difficult to do so we may not get even get a new one in the next version.
 
They should work on making a better UI. I mean, windows are great, but there's got to be a better way to manage applications than a start menu and a task bar.
 
ViRGE said:
To be honest, I wouldn't get too worked up in either direction at this point. In spite of MS's intentions to speed up development to get closer to a 3 year Windows cycle, the impression I'm getting is that they're still feeling out a number of ideas rather than listing features Windows 8 absolutely will have.

Exactly, none of the speculation means anything until the first public beta. I remember warez'ing an early Win98 beta that was just Win95 with IE4 tacked on and all the dynamic desktop shit enabled. Once it went RTM all of that crap was turned off by default.

Modelworks said:
I like the How apple does it , slide. "this is something people will pay for !"

Right now all Apple has to do is stick a lower case "i" in front of something and people line up in droves to pay 10x the hardware cost without thinking twice.

Odd as it sounds I think I actually like MS better as a company.

sivart said:
Wasn't M$ suppose to update the NTFS file system / create a new file system with Windows 7? What happened to those plans.

And they have, multiple times. Each major version of Windows since NT4, and sometimes SPs as well, have come with updated NTFS drivers that add more features to NTFS. They're just not things that are very visible from userland like transactions. Although with the advent of ZFS and now BTRFS, MS does look like they're sitting still with regards to NTFS.

WinFS was supposed to be a database-like filesystem but it keeps getting canned for various reasons. It's kinda funny how they never even got it to the point where it was on feature-parity with BeFS from like 15 years ago.

simonizor said:
They should work on making a better UI. I mean, windows are great, but there's got to be a better way to manage applications than a start menu and a task bar.

Until we actually get totally new user interface peripherals, I doubt that'll ever happen. The closest thing we've seen so far is the multitasking built into Android and WinMo. And both of those are just slightly different ways to manage windows with extremely limited screen real estate.

If MS would include a version of multiple desktops, like many of us have been using on unix-like systems for over 20 years now, I think that would be a huge step forward and would be enough for a long time. As it stands right now every multiple desktop app for Windows sucks in some different way and usually enough to make it unusable for me.
 
And they have, multiple times. Each major version of Windows since NT4, and sometimes SPs as well, have come with updated NTFS drivers that add more features to NTFS. They're just not things that are very visible from userland like transactions. Although with the advent of ZFS and now BTRFS, MS does look like they're sitting still with regards to NTFS.

WinFS was supposed to be a database-like filesystem but it keeps getting canned for various reasons. It's kinda funny how they never even got it to the point where it was on feature-parity with BeFS from like 15 years ago.
Database as a file system never made any sense. It's completely unintuitive for a normal user (files & folders is heavily rooted in the real world) and always struck me as MS throwing around buzzwords. On the other hand indexing files after the fact makes a ton of sense for the purposes of finding files, and in many ways we're already there with Windows Search. It's not BeFS, but then I'm not sure there's enough of a difference to be appreciated any more beyond the fact that the indexes are files for an application rather than being part of the file system.

With that said, I would keep an eye on WHS's Drive Extender v2. Whether intentional or not it certainly seems to liberally take features from ZFS, and if it does well for WHS I wouldn't be shocked if it started showing up in Win 7.x kernels (have I ever mentioned how much I hate the fact that Win7 is 6.1?).
 
Database as a file system never made any sense. It's completely unintuitive for a normal user (files & folders is heavily rooted in the real world) and always struck me as MS throwing around buzzwords. On the other hand indexing files after the fact makes a ton of sense for the purposes of finding files, and in many ways we're already there with Windows Search. It's not BeFS, but then I'm not sure there's enough of a difference to be appreciated any more beyond the fact that the indexes are files for an application rather than being part of the file system.

I agree, I like my files and directories and can't come with anything better than the hierarchical scheme we have now. I really hate Windows' drive letters and the fact that the Windows installer is such crap that you can't even setup mount points during the install, but the basic ideas are fine.

I'm comfortable with putting together SQL queries so I'd probably be fine with whatever WinFS interface they came up with but I imagine most users wouldn't. And frankly we could have 99% of what they were thinking about with extended attributes, which we have already. The problem is the UI, if apps actually started using them explorer would have to have some UI to pick from when defining a search and if app developers started using them that list would become unmanageable real quick. And the fact that EAs aren't portable (just look at the crap a Mac will spew onto a filesystem when you copy a file to it) kind of kills that.

But yea, I think we have most of what people would want with Libraries and Windows Search, if Windows Search worked better.

ViRGE said:
With that said, I would keep an eye on WHS's Drive Extender v2. Whether intentional or not it certainly seems to liberally take features from ZFS, and if it does well for WHS I wouldn't be shocked if it started showing up in Win 7.x kernels (have I ever mentioned how much I hate the fact that Win7 is 6.1?).

Maybe. If Win8 doesn't get delayed it'll probably only be included in it. MS seems to use some sort of random number generator to decide if they're going to add a new feature onto an existing OS or only include it in the successor. Sometimes they're a free download, sometimes they're snuck in behind your back with a service pack and sometimes they just tell you to f' off and buy the new version. For a company that makes such a big deal about platform consistency and integration, they could really learn a lot from some Linux distributions.

And I just wish MS would pick a naming scheme and stick with it. Some of their apps use versions, some use years and some seem to have just been put together by a dyslexic kid with ADD that just chugged a RedBull. The very fact that they had to write a KB article explaining how to find your SQL Server version and that it requires SQL commands just screams "WTF?!?".
 
holy crap this is creepy
steve-ballmer-microsoft.jpg
 
Microsoft fucking sucks and their dominance is doomed. Fuck Microsoft and may they rot in hell. Also, fuck Apple.

iDiots will use Apple or Microsoft's new iStupid store

Microsoft has promised innovation and hasn't delivered shit with Windows 7.. They will not be delivering anything useful with Windows 8 either.

By now (and some of this more than two operating systems ago) we were supposed to have:

1. Vector graphic gui - A gui where you can set the resolution and text size independent of each other so that higher resolution is always better.. A gui where you can resize windows and still see everything on them..

2. Better filesystem - How about a filesystem that handles my data and keeps redundant backed-up copies of everything important? one that can located files based on keywords.. one where I can search through my archive of pictures independent of directories? one that actually treats a hard drive like it's volatile storage that can fail at any time?

3. Drivers that actually download from the Internet.. (this works maybe 10% of the time).. Where you have a list of the drivers YOU (the user.. the OWNER of the fucking computer) can have a choice to install. Windows 7 can't even fucking install some external hard drives any more.. ones that worked fine in XP.

4. 64bit.. WTF Microsoft.. Just use 64bit already.

5. Instant boot/shutdown for laptops.. works perfectly on Mac.. fucks up 99% of the time in Windows

6. A version of Internet explorer that doesn't hiccup on complicated web pages.. Seriously.. While Internet Explorer is busy loading some pages, it prevents or ignores user interaction with the buttons.. So you, the user, don't even get to close a page until Internet Explorer decides it is ready for you to close it.

7. Instantaneous feedback.. By now, you should be able to open and close windows, open main programs, click the back button on browsers, and not have to wait more than 200ms! Windows 7 improves slightly.. but imo it's not near good enough..

8. Reliable file copy.. ftp programs from 15 years ago had the ability to queue files and retry on transfer errors so you don't lose your place.. Windows Explorer? Nope, you're fucked.

Microsoft, you are an asshole. You have pretty much the entire business community and you spend 100% of your effort on iCandy useless bullshit. Get innovating and stop copying. And you suck.
 
If MS would include a version of multiple desktops, like many of us have been using on unix-like systems for over 20 years now, I think that would be a huge step forward and would be enough for a long time. As it stands right now every multiple desktop app for Windows sucks in some different way and usually enough to make it unusable for me.

lol so true, but even in mac or linux i never find a use for multiple desktops. But on a smaller screens it might.
 
lol so true, but even in mac or linux i never find a use for multiple desktops. But on a smaller screens it might.

And I can't live without it regardless of screen size. I've got 2 monitors here at work here running 1280x1024 each and I still use 3 or 4 of the 8 desktops I have setup regularly. Every time I have to use a Windows machine I feel cramped and almost trapped.
 
Microsoft fucking sucks and their dominance is doomed. Fuck Microsoft and may they rot in hell. Also, fuck Apple.

iDiots will use Apple or Microsoft's new iStupid store

Microsoft has promised innovation and hasn't delivered shit with Windows 7.. They will not be delivering anything useful with Windows 8 either.

By now (and some of this more than two operating systems ago) we were supposed to have:

1. Vector graphic gui - A gui where you can set the resolution and text size independent of each other so that higher resolution is always better.. A gui where you can resize windows and still see everything on them..

2. atBetter filesystem - How about a filesystem that handles my data and keeps redundant backed-up copies of everything important? one that can located files based on keywords.. one where I can search through my archive of pictures independent of directories? one th actually treats a hard drive like it's volatile storage that can fail at any time?

3. Drivers that actually download from the Internet.. (this works maybe 10% of the time).. Where you have a list of the drivers YOU (the user.. the OWNER of the fucking computer) can have a choice to install. Windows 7 can't even fucking install some external hard drives any more.. ones that worked fine in XP.

4. 64bit.. WTF Microsoft.. Just use 64bit already.

5. Instant boot/shutdown for laptops.. works perfectly on Mac.. fucks up 99% of the time in Windows

6. A version of Internet explorer that doesn't hiccup on complicated web pages.. Seriously.. While Internet Explorer is busy loading some pages, it prevents or ignores user interaction with the buttons.. So you, the user, don't even get to close a page until Internet Explorer decides it is ready for you to close it.

7. Instantaneous feedback.. By now, you should be able to open and close windows, open main programs, click the back button on browsers, and not have to wait more than 200ms! Windows 7 improves slightly.. but imo it's not near good enough..

8. Reliable file copy.. ftp programs from 15 years ago had the ability to queue files and retry on transfer errors so you don't lose your place.. Windows Explorer? Nope, you're fucked.

Microsoft, you are an asshole. You have pretty much the entire business community and you spend 100% of your effort on iCandy useless bullshit. Get innovating and stop copying. And you suck.
Put the crack pipe down.

Half of that doesn't even make sense. Have you heard of libraries in windows 7? I'm going to guess your clueless if you can't download drivers 90% of the time correctly.

What kind of hard drive are you using that doesn't work in W7 that worked in XP? 64bit? It's getting there. WHS is 64big only as are a few of their server operating system now. They can't drop x86 completely as there are way too many p4's out there that don't support 64bit yet.

Blaming MS for not having fast hard drives? That makes sense.
 
Not that anyone really needs another opinion on this, but I can't sleep. When reading the following, just know that I like/have liked/haven't liked Microsoft/Apple/Linux in the past for different reasons:

1.) Faster Boot - Nice, I guess. I tend to hibernate a lot, but I understand the desire.
2.) Ambient lighting response - Great, but this is a "key feature?"
3.) Awesome Graphics - Great, something else that can be skinned and have another funky interface. Windows Media Player of a few generations ago, I'm looking at you. Right now, I love Apple for their consistency of UI elements.
4.) Touch displays - Why for the love of God would I want this on a desktop computer? Sure, I like my iPod Touch. It's great. It's also Hand-held. Why would someone want to scale this up to a large monitor?
5.) Camera-based log-in. Seriously? This is what we developed high performance processors for? I mean, sure, I guess it's nice, but.... how are you going to make sure people don't hack it with a photograph of me? And, as someone else said, how hard is it to remember a password? The real kicker, I think, is that this is going to make it REALLY easy for you to forget your password (after all, you'll only use it when the camera system doesn't work).... combine this with better HDD encryption and, Houston, we may have a problem.
6.) Better encryption. Great, but what if people forget their password (see above).
7.) Apps and Settings follow me. This I like. BUT, I don't necessarily like the Cloud storage issues (your mileage may vary). Keeping some things synced (bookmarks, files, calendar, contacts, etc.) painlessly would be GREAT. But, I use different programs on different computers. AutoCAD might be on the most-often used apps of my work computer, but NEVER be used on my laptop. And do I really want work files accessible on my home computer (and vice-versa?) Surely my employer doesn't want those security headaches.

By the way, even though that was supposed to be an internal presentation, it really did suck as far as graphics go. Far smaller firms have internal graphic artists who help make these presentations (or at least make sure that the fonts don't change halfway through a slide for some reason).
 
3.) Awesome Graphics - Great, something else that can be skinned and have another funky interface. Windows Media Player of a few generations ago, I'm looking at you. Right now, I love Apple for their consistency of UI elements.

This is something that depends on your perspective. While I comment Apple on their dedication to consistency, I hate the draconian stranglehold they use to enforce it. And it's funny how MS is probably he worst offender on their own platform. I always found it hypocritical how they tout their UI guidelines and then apps like VS, WMP, Office, etc all get a non-standard look and dialogs. But given a choice between the two I'll take Windows' flexibility over Apple's death grip any day.

4.) Touch displays - Why for the love of God would I want this on a desktop computer? Sure, I like my iPod Touch. It's great. It's also Hand-held. Why would someone want to scale this up to a large monitor?

The lobby of our office building has a touchscreen with various menus about the building and it's tenants running XP. And as mobile devices get faster MS may be able to merge the core of their mobile and desktop OSes like Apple and Linux. You really think you've exhausted all of the possibilities in your head just now?

6.) Better encryption. Great, but what if people forget their password (see above).

Windows already uses AES which is virtually unbreakable. Yes, people have lost data because they didn't realize that, but you can't deny the rest of us the capability because some people out there don't understand how their computer works.

7.) Apps and Settings follow me. This I like. BUT, I don't necessarily like the Cloud storage issues (your mileage may vary). Keeping some things synced (bookmarks, files, calendar, contacts, etc.) painlessly would be GREAT. But, I use different programs on different computers. AutoCAD might be on the most-often used apps of my work computer, but NEVER be used on my laptop. And do I really want work files accessible on my home computer (and vice-versa?) Surely my employer doesn't want those security headaches.

So you just won't sync your work computer, how hard is that? MS is plenty of stupid, but you don't think they've considered that?
 
Thanks for some intelligent responses. Hopefully mine are somewhat cogent as well:

This is something that depends on your perspective. While I comment Apple on their dedication to consistency, I hate the draconian stranglehold they use to enforce it. And it's funny how MS is probably he worst offender on their own platform. I always found it hypocritical how they tout their UI guidelines and then apps like VS, WMP, Office, etc all get a non-standard look and dialogs. But given a choice between the two I'll take Windows' flexibility over Apple's death grip any day.

You're right, this is definitely personal preference all the way. I imagine that most of the folks here would side with you on this one -- most techies like to have more control rather than less. It's just a personal peeve to me. (And I definitely agree with you about MS being a huge offender on their own platform.)

The lobby of our office building has a touchscreen with various menus about the building and it's tenants running XP. And as mobile devices get faster MS may be able to merge the core of their mobile and desktop OSes like Apple and Linux. You really think you've exhausted all of the possibilities in your head just now?

I suppose I'm just "offended" by the idea of packing more and more stuff into the core of an operating system even when it will be used on a very small number of devices.* I think that there is a use for multitouch in things like atrium computers, but I really don't ever see it coming into massive use on a desktop computer (at least one that someone actually sits on a desk to use). My reading of the presentation was that MS was going to try to encourage users to use multitouch while sitting at a desk -- but obviously I may be mistaken. However, I don't think that MS has implemented past versions of new input devices very well. For instance, the Stickies in Windows 7 are great, but are really designed primarily for stylus interaction. In this case, I think MS was so concerned about getting this "feature" in that they really ignored the whole user experience. I'm afraid that they'll do something similar with multitouch.

*Admittedly, I don't know much technically about how multitouch would need to be implemented at a "core" level -- I suppose it would mean implementing APIs that would be able to deal with multitouch input (e.g. we can't just pass the fact that the mouse double-clicked on the window to maximize it, we might need to pass the fact that two touches occurred on the edges of the window, and the movement of those touches to get a window being resized.) Am I right about that?

Windows already uses AES which is virtually unbreakable. Yes, people have lost data because they didn't realize that, but you can't deny the rest of us the capability because some people out there don't understand how their computer works.

True. My concern was just increasing awareness of it/promoting the feature. Sure, more people should use it -- definitely in a work setting or with regard to personal data (.PDFs of brokerage statements, etc.), but now, most of the folks who do use encryption know enough to remember the password. But if Mom/Dad/Aunt Sally are encouraged to use the new feature (especially on a Desktop, which doesn't really face the same risks as a laptop) and they then forget the password (again, made more likely by facial-recognition log-in), it's going to be hard to tell them that they aren't getting their data back. Should they have made backups/a restore key disk/USB key. Absolutely. What are the odds (especially if you're not administering the computer for them?)

I think a LOT of people see computer security as something akin to a traditional lock. If I forget the password, I can always call a locksmith (a/k/a one of us). That's when we have to explain that encryption (if done right) is slightly stronger than a deadbolt.

So you just won't sync your work computer, how hard is that? MS is plenty of stupid, but you don't think they've considered that?

Oh, sure, they've considered it, but in some ways, there goes a lot of the benefit right there (e.g., I can't automatically sync an article that I came across while browsing the web at work to look at at home). Or, why should a game that requires a killer system (Crysis, that's resource-intensive, right?) appear as available on a netbook machine? Will mom/dad get confused if one of them changes the wallpaper on one computer and it automagically changes on their other one as well (and yes, I know they should be using multiple accounts, but it's harder to enforce in practice!) What if a different color scheme is better for a home-office computer (lots of Photoshop work, needs neutral colors) and a netbook (very dark, use it to read in bed.) And I would still suggest that people run different types of programs on their desktops than they do on their media centers or their laptops.

These seem to be the type of small user-interaction that (IMHO) Apple is much better at than Microsoft, and I just imagine that they'll find a way to screw up. I'd rather then first work on things like easy universal access of files before they go into "wouldn't it be cool if the screen saver on all of your computers were synchronized." That sort of seems like one of the worst tendencies on Linux-programmers -- creating the crazy beautiful UI feature before making sure that the boring parts, you know, actually work.

However, I admit that I may just be (mis)reading between the lines here. Anyway, just my $0.02.
 
AtlantaBob said:
I suppose I'm just "offended" by the idea of packing more and more stuff into the core of an operating system even when it will be used on a very small number of devices.*

Except that it shouldn't really matter. If done properly it'll be a loadable driver so it shouldn't affect anyone not using it.

AtlantaBob said:
However, I don't think that MS has implemented past versions of new input devices very well. For instance, the Stickies in Windows 7 are great, but are really designed primarily for stylus interaction. In this case, I think MS was so concerned about getting this "feature" in that they really ignored the whole user experience. I'm afraid that they'll do something similar with multitouch.

You're probably right, at least at first. It generally takes them a good 5 years or so to make anything decent.

AtlantaBob said:
*Admittedly, I don't know much technically about how multitouch would need to be implemented at a "core" level -- I suppose it would mean implementing APIs that would be able to deal with multitouch input (e.g. we can't just pass the fact that the mouse double-clicked on the window to maximize it, we might need to pass the fact that two touches occurred on the edges of the window, and the movement of those touches to get a window being resized.) Am I right about that?

It might be as simple as a second pointer instance and having apps check for both presses. I'm 99% sure X can do this already but I'm not sure how well it works since most apps only expect 1 pointer.

AtlantaBob said:
I think a LOT of people see computer security as something akin to a traditional lock. If I forget the password, I can always call a locksmith (a/k/a one of us). That's when we have to explain that encryption (if done right) is slightly stronger than a deadbolt.

And that's not something that software can fix or something that should stop MS from working on better cryptography. It's kind of like the iPhone4 reception saga, it might only affect 10% of iPhone4 users but that's enough that everyone's talking about it and knows about it. The only real way to get awareness out there is to have people lose their data. It sucks for those people, but it's true.

AtlantaBob said:
Oh, sure, they've considered it, but in some ways, there goes a lot of the benefit right there (e.g., I can't automatically sync an article that I came across while browsing the web at work to look at at home).

And hopefully it'll be controllable via GPO so employers that care can disable some/all of the functionality and the users won't even have the option. People are already too loose with their work data and need a kick in the ass as it is.

AtlantaBob said:
Or, why should a game that requires a killer system (Crysis, that's resource-intensive, right?) appear as available on a netbook machine?

Steam users seem to get by like that just fine.

AtlantaBob said:
These seem to be the type of small user-interaction that (IMHO) Apple is much better at than Microsoft, and I just imagine that they'll find a way to screw up

Apple is only better at it because they give you less choices. You either do it Apple's way or not at all.

AtlantaBob said:
That sort of seems like one of the worst tendencies on Linux-programmers -- creating the crazy beautiful UI feature before making sure that the boring parts, you know, actually work.

Now that's funny. I remember when Linux programmers were crazy because they never cared about the presentation, just the low level bits. "As long as the kernel and shell work, why should I care about an OpenGL screensaver?". It's nice to see how perceptions have changed over the years. =)

AtlantaBob said:
However, I admit that I may just be (mis)reading between the lines here. Anyway, just my $0.02.

I think you're only slightly overreacting. I'm sure MS will find a way to screw it up, but I doubt it will be as bad as you think.
 
Now that's funny. I remember when Linux programmers were crazy because they never cared about the presentation, just the low level bits. "As long as the kernel and shell work, why should I care about an OpenGL screensaver?". It's nice to see how perceptions have changed over the years. =)

NO they havent changed, dunno what that guy is talking about.
 
It might be as simple as a second pointer instance and having apps check for both presses. I'm 99% sure X can do this already but I'm not sure how well it works since most apps only expect 1 pointer.

I'm just concerned if it's multitouch a la Apple, it seems like they might need at least three if not more points. But thanks for clarifying.

And that's not something that software can fix or something that should stop MS from working on better cryptography. It's kind of like the iPhone4 reception saga, it might only affect 10% of iPhone4 users but that's enough that everyone's talking about it and knows about it. The only real way to get awareness out there is to have people lose their data. It sucks for those people, but it's true.

Agreed, at some point that might be what's necessary. But it does seem irresponsible to tout the feature without SERIOUSLY explaining that encrypted means encrypted.

And hopefully it'll be controllable via GPO so employers that care can disable some/all of the functionality and the users won't even have the option. People are already too loose with their work data and need a kick in the ass as it is.

Good point, it might be good to selectively allow for some types of synchronization -- I didn't think of that.

Steam users seem to get by like that just fine.

Sorry -- I don't know what you're saying here. More my ignorance than anything else. Can you explain?

Apple is only better at it because they give you less choices. You either do it Apple's way or not at all.

Sadly, I think you're right. On the whole, I think that Apple makes the right limiting decisions most of the time. But there is definitely a freedom issue here which is non-negligible. If only MS/Linux employed designers who could determine which features to remove access to (or, as Apple sometimes does, makes access to those features preferences for those who are interested in changing them -- through obscure key-strokes or terminal commands.) Again, not to make light of your concerns -- Apple dominance would be a bad thing. But they can show MS and Linux something about selectively offering options.

Now that's funny. I remember when Linux programmers were crazy because they never cared about the presentation, just the low level bits. "As long as the kernel and shell work, why should I care about an OpenGL screensaver?". It's nice to see how perceptions have changed over the years. =)

Sure, there are a lot of Linux/OpenSource programmers who just work -- I had a thread on a Python module the other day that bemoaned the fact that it's installation didn't "just work." But there are a lot of Linux programmers working on Comiz/Fusion and all of the rest of that. For a lot of folks, programming "sexy" is fun -- and I understand. I would be doing the same thing if I were working for free. I think that's one of the reasons why open source development is always going to require some (if not a lot) of paid labor -- for a lot of people, optimizing boring functions or doing the minutia of interface design isn't going to be something they do on their free time.

Anyway, thanks guys, for some interesting conversation!
 
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