Windows 8 - another MS disaster waiting to happen?

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Dell already tried out Linux, twice i think,they customized a version of Ubuntu last time i believe...however, it never really sold very well,

I can not remember a single time when I went to the dell website, and a linux based system was on the front page.

One of the issues with not selling well is because companies hide other options behind microsoft products.


But Linux is making inroads in the form of Android and no one seems able to stop that.

One of the key phrases was posted by MrChad

which should allow software and hardware vendors to more easily adapt thereby improving stability and public perception

"Public perception" - its all about staying in the public eye. While droid is releasing a new phone every few months, it makes microsoft look inferior with their years between release dates.

With ipads and smart phones becoming more popular, and new models ever few months, microsoft is looking like its going to be forgotten about.

How long until someone ports a droid OS to a desktop so people can use the same OS on their home computer and smart phone.
 

Griffinhart

Golden Member
Dec 7, 2004
1,130
1
76
Whatever that is, it looks better than what I've seen of WP7 screenshots. I really dislike the default color scheme MS choose for WP7 and I don't really like the rigid blocks either. I'm obviously biased, but I like the way Android widgets can draw their borders however they like or not at all.

I almost always change the color schemes of about every OS I use. XP, Vista, Win7, Ubuntu, anything I have tried, I have always changed the scheme. But I like the tile approach to the new UI. At least for Tablets. I use a similar 3rd party app on my tablet (asus ep121) to get a similar result, which works fantastically.


They also didn't price it properly, sometimes it even cost more than getting Windows on the thing, they only put it on 1 or 2 SKUs and they were the ultra cheap stuff and I don't think there was any real marketing. Even Linux users end up not getting it that way because you couldn't get Linux on the machines worth buying. Whether that was because of Dell's incompetence, which seems to have no bounds, or pressure from MS, I don't know, but it was definitely setup to fail right from the start.

How should they price it? Most industry analyst think dell pays $30 or so for each copy of Windows they install on their PC's. Given they need to also support any linux box they sell, maintaining a staff of linux specialist can easily bump up the price of the product a little. It's easy to see that $30 cost advantage get eaten up this way for what is really just a niche product.

But Linux is making inroads in the form of Android and no one seems able to stop that. As mobile devices become more and more prolific and capable MS is going to have a harder and harder time convincing people they're still relevant simply because iOS and Android have the mindshare already and even though WP7 is nothing like Windows Mobile 6.x, a lot of people still have a bitter taste in their mouth from that product.
Linux has been making inroads in the mobile space, and the server space but not, for the most part, against Windows propper. Against Apple, Symbian, Blackberry, etc. Absolutely. At least on the smartphone front. Not quite as well on the tablet front.

Windows Mobile is losing share. But, that was expected with or without Android. Windows Phone is slowly growing. I think the jury is still out on this Mobile OS. I hear pronouncements of failure, to predictions of domination. I think reality will settle somewhere inbetween.

Linux is still practically dead on the desktop. Less than 1%.

Linux is making decent strides in the server market, but so is Windows. Both at the expense of Unix installs.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
How should they price it? Most industry analyst think dell pays $30 or so for each copy of Windows they install on their PC's. Given they need to also support any linux box they sell, maintaining a staff of linux specialist can easily bump up the price of the product a little. It's easy to see that $30 cost advantage get eaten up this way for what is really just a niche product.

I understand all of that, but it's difficult for any new product to make headway when it's priced higher or even the same than the current de facto standard. Dell had an opportunity to pull an Apple and sell systems where they have complete control over the hardware and OS but they blew it.

The failure wasn't the software, it was in Dell's commitment and execution. They either screwed up or didn't care.

Linux has been making inroads in the mobile space, and the server space but not, for the most part, against Windows propper. Against Apple, Symbian, Blackberry, etc. Absolutely. At least on the smartphone front. Not quite as well on the tablet front.

Windows Mobile is losing share. But, that was expected with or without Android. Windows Phone is slowly growing. I think the jury is still out on this Mobile OS. I hear pronouncements of failure, to predictions of domination. I think reality will settle somewhere inbetween.

Linux is still practically dead on the desktop. Less than 1%.

Linux is making decent strides in the server market, but so is Windows. Both at the expense of Unix installs.

And as phones and tablets become a lot of people's primary computing device, Linux in Android will have a large share of that space. Probably sharing it with iOS with WP7 and BB fighting over the last few percent. Google admitted that Honeycomb was a rushed tablet release, they'll clean it up and it should be a strong competitor with the iPad with the next release or two. MS' best tablet effort so far was XP Tablet edition, not exactly a strong contender these days.

As for Linux on proper desktops, I'm not really concerned either way. I've been using on my desktops at home for like a decade now with minimal problems, far less with far more use than I've had with Windows over the years. I'm even typing this on my work laptop running Debian right now. With so much being pushed into web apps and "the cloud" there's less and less of a reason to care about the local OS, which just means it's easier to migrate away from Windows. The only thing Windows has going for it is historic installs, OEM install for the next handful of years and games.

With BPOS, Office 265, Google Docs, GMail, etc all running in a browser what do I need Windows for again?
 

Griffinhart

Golden Member
Dec 7, 2004
1,130
1
76
Dell had an opportunity to pull an Apple and sell systems where they have complete control over the hardware and OS but they blew it.
I'm not sure that's true. This is prior to Apple's and Android's App stores. This was when "completely open" were the hallmarks of the linux comments out there. A walled garden by Dell wouldn't have fared well at all.

The failure wasn't the software, it was in Dell's commitment and execution. They either screwed up or didn't care.
Look, I think Linux is a fine OS. I have no problems with it at all. I also think that OSX and Windows are fine Operating Sytems. The reason Dell didn't "commit" the way you wanted was that it was a pretty big risk for something that was, and is a niche market.

And as phones and tablets become a lot of people's primary computing device,
Studies are not supporting this claim. There are some that use tablets and phones as primary computing devices, I'm sure. But the vast majority of people use them as secondary devices. And while annecdotal, I personally, don't know a single person that uses their phone, Android tablet or iPad as a primary device.

Linux in Android will have a large share of that space. Probably sharing it with iOS with WP7 and BB fighting over the last few percent.
Android is one of the movers and the shakers in the phone market. There is no doubt. And I would take an Android phone over an iPhone any day. What the phone market will look like in 2 years is anyones guess. Especially when looking at international numbers. There are reasons why some industry analyst thing WP7 will top competitors in a few years. Now, I don't know if that's true, and given the popularity of Android and the iPhone and the way smart phones are used, I wouldn't bet money on backing anyone yet.

Google admitted that Honeycomb was a rushed tablet release, they'll clean it up and it should be a strong competitor with the iPad with the next release or two. MS' best tablet effort so far was XP Tablet edition, not exactly a strong contender these days.
Actually, I think Win7 is a better tablet effort than XP, Tablet edition. Being a tablet (convertable HP TN2, and Asus EP121) owner It's surprising how well Windows handles touch and pen input. Especially Pen input. It's also shocking how bad it is in certain areas as well. Personally, I use Rainmeter and a WP7 style interface that works remarkably well. It is definately a work around, and I hate that I really need to use it if I want a pure touch/pen experience. This is one of the reasons I am really interested in seeing what Win8 can do for me.

One thing that really frustrates me about Microsoft is the way they can release absolutly fantastic stuff, that could and should be game changing, yet totally fail to capitalize on it for one reason or another. Media Center is an excellent example. Windows Home Server is another. Their under the covers work with Pen and touch is phenominal, but their total lack of finding a good UI metaphor to capitalize on it sooner is shameful.

At least on the tablet front, I think it's early enough where MS can still manage to be an important player.


As for Linux on proper desktops, I'm not really concerned either way. I've been using on my desktops at home for like a decade now with minimal problems, far less with far more use than I've had with Windows over the years. I'm even typing this on my work laptop running Debian right now.
As I mentioned. Linux is a fine OS. For some, such as yourself, it fits the bill. For me, it doesn't. I can't live without my Office Apps (OneNote being the primary killer app for my tablet), Photoshop CS5, and my games (EverQuest 2, Company of Heroes, Civ 5, Battlefield 2 and soon 3!).

With so much being pushed into web apps and "the cloud" there's less and less of a reason to care about the local OS, which just means it's easier to migrate away from Windows.
That, certainly, is the primary hope and push of Google for the computing future. We'll see how it pans out over time. I much prefer local apps and using the cloud to backup data. This is going to be the preference of a lot of people and companies too.

The only thing Windows has going for it is historic installs, OEM install for the next handful of years and games.
Time will tell. I suspect Windows has a bit more going for it than that.

With BPOS, Office 265, Google Docs, GMail, etc all running in a browser what do I need Windows for again?
Office 365 is the replacement for BPOS, from what I understand. And includes full, local versions of Office with access to the web version. It also a hosted service for Exchange and Sharepoint. Primarily for companies that don't want or don't have dedicated IT staff to manage these systems.

I have yet to see any evidence that Google Docs, or even MS's own free MS Office web client will put significant hurt on the traditional MS Office software. Time will tell, though, I feel we will end up with a combination of rich, local apps, using local and online resources. The best of both worlds if you will.

Of course, someone looking to do minimal e-mail, surfing, media consumption and light office work can get away with a simple browser. But I haven't seen anything that would take the place of Windows or any other Full OS, without a complete change of how and what I use my computer for.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
I'm not sure that's true. This is prior to Apple's and Android's App stores. This was when "completely open" were the hallmarks of the linux comments out there. A walled garden by Dell wouldn't have fared well at all.

I don't even see how App store's come into it, Apple has had a walled garden since their creation. They've just been building up the walls a lot more recently and making them prettier so they seem less bad.

Look, I think Linux is a fine OS. I have no problems with it at all. I also think that OSX and Windows are fine Operating Sytems. The reason Dell didn't "commit" the way you wanted was that it was a pretty big risk for something that was, and is a niche market.

Then don't do it. Half-assing it to placate a vocal minority of Linux users is just dumb and almost always backfires, as it did here. Of course the market for Linux desktops is small, most people don't know it exists or why they would want it. But there is a market for cheap computers and they could've leveraged Linux to enter that market. Instead they put it on like 3 machines that were hard to find on the website and priced almost the same as if you had gotten Windows on them. None of that makes any sense if they really wanted to try and sell them.

Studies are not supporting this claim. There are some that use tablets and phones as primary computing devices, I'm sure. But the vast majority of people use them as secondary devices. And while annecdotal, I personally, don't know a single person that uses their phone, Android tablet or iPad as a primary device.

Studies say whatever the company funding them wants them to say. But I'm not saying there are droves of iPad-only users out there, hell you need iTunes on a PC to activate, backup, etc the thing. But the future sure looks that way. The Cisco Cius was supposed to be a corporate tablet that could pretty much replace the desktop of a secretary, phone agent, etc. I don't know if they actually got all of that functionality in and working in the initial product, but that doesn't seem too ambitious these days and I could easily see that working for a number of people. I just don't know how much infrastructure it would require and Cisco loves to require a server for every "feature" of their stuff.

The Samsung Tabs already have docks, keyboards, etc being released so why is it so far fetched to think if someone at home using their Tab in a dock with a BT keyboard and mouse for email, Angry Birds, browsing, Google Docs, etc?

Android is one of the movers and the shakers in the phone market. There is no doubt. And I would take an Android phone over an iPhone any day. What the phone market will look like in 2 years is anyones guess. Especially when looking at international numbers. There are reasons why some industry analyst thing WP7 will top competitors in a few years. Now, I don't know if that's true, and given the popularity of Android and the iPhone and the way smart phones are used, I wouldn't bet money on backing anyone yet.

True, MS is good at pulling upsets and putting out products that have just enough of the features of the current market leaders to erode their lead while working on duplicating the rest of the features. Hyper-V is a good, recent example of that. But they don't seem to get consumers, while Apple, HTC, Motorola, etc do, and that will make their job of gaining mobile marketshare very hard.

Actually, I think Win7 is a better tablet effort than XP, Tablet edition. Being a tablet (convertable HP TN2, and Asus EP121) owner It's surprising how well Windows handles touch and pen input. Especially Pen input. It's also shocking how bad it is in certain areas as well. Personally, I use Rainmeter and a WP7 style interface that works remarkably well. It is definately a work around, and I hate that I really need to use it if I want a pure touch/pen experience. This is one of the reasons I am really interested in seeing what Win8 can do for me.

One thing that really frustrates me about Microsoft is the way they can release absolutly fantastic stuff, that could and should be game changing, yet totally fail to capitalize on it for one reason or another. Media Center is an excellent example. Windows Home Server is another. Their under the covers work with Pen and touch is phenominal, but their total lack of finding a good UI metaphor to capitalize on it sooner is shameful.

At least on the tablet front, I think it's early enough where MS can still manage to be an important player.

And that's MS' problem. They understand business, not people. And even though Win8 will run on ARM, I think most people have forgotten that tablets used to run Windows at some point. Apple successfully convinced everyone that a giant iPad Touch is a tablet, so now people see them as smaller, locked down devices that can't run Windows apps and that's fine because the App Store and Android Market have enough apps and games for them.

As I mentioned. Linux is a fine OS. For some, such as yourself, it fits the bill. For me, it doesn't. I can't live without my Office Apps (OneNote being the primary killer app for my tablet), Photoshop CS5, and my games (EverQuest 2, Company of Heroes, Civ 5, Battlefield 2 and soon 3!).

Obviously if you're committed to certain, Windows-only apps then your choices are extremely limited. For work I have a few of those, but an RDP session or small VM can cover those too these days. At home I hate to even see Windows, it's just so frustrating to use after using Linux for so long. Things just seem to work so much smoother in Linux.

That, certainly, is the primary hope and push of Google for the computing future. We'll see how it pans out over time. I much prefer local apps and using the cloud to backup data. This is going to be the preference of a lot of people and companies too.

I prefer local apps as well, but I don't mind having a copy of my mail kept in Gmail just in case. Or using Dropbox to get stuff to/from all of my devices at once. A ChromeOS laptop would never fly with me, but a Linux laptop with bits in it to sync with those services would work great.

Time will tell. I suspect Windows has a bit more going for it than that.

I dunno, even MS isn't sure how their partners are going to make money off their cloud. At the last partner conference they had a big thing on migrating customers to the cloud, how easy it is, etc. And if we migrate a customer to BPOS we get to charge for the migration time, etc but after that's done so are we. MS gives us a pittance each month since they're "our customer" but they do all of the maintenance of the Exchange infrastructure so there's nothing left for us to do but setup new accounts and such. It's more than a little scary for MS' partners.

Office 365 is the replacement for BPOS, from what I understand. And includes full, local versions of Office with access to the web version. It also a hosted service for Exchange and Sharepoint. Primarily for companies that don't want or don't have dedicated IT staff to manage these systems.

I have yet to see any evidence that Google Docs, or even MS's own free MS Office web client will put significant hurt on the traditional MS Office software. Time will tell, though, I feel we will end up with a combination of rich, local apps, using local and online resources. The best of both worlds if you will.

Of course, someone looking to do minimal e-mail, surfing, media consumption and light office work can get away with a simple browser. But I haven't seen anything that would take the place of Windows or any other Full OS, without a complete change of how and what I use my computer for.

And the BPOS name is appropriate, the trials we did were riddled with random problems that should've been easy to handle. Even a simple support ticket for Exchange transaction logs to track down an email went weeks without reply, eventually we just said f' it and told them to close the ticket. They'll need a major overhaul for O365 to work well. Exchange 2010 should take care of some of it, but their support needs ramped up too. Luckily there are other Exchange hosting providers out there that actually know what they're doing already.

I feel the same way about Windows, every time I'm using it and want to do something I wonder why some standard tool in Linux isn't there like 'whois' or 'wget' and then I have to figure out a way to work around it. Windows does a few things better, but they're minor. Hell, just recently I setup bonded NICs on 2 Linux servers and a half-dozen Windows ones. After a few minutes of reading in Linux I knew what I had to do and was done in another 10 min, had the interfaces renamed to match the docs, bonded on the switch side and servers, rebooted and tested. Largely because once I had one done I was able to just copy the config files over to the other host, change the MACs and IPs and that was it. For Windows I had to install the NIC manufacturer software because Windows doesn't do 802.3ad link aggregation, then I had to deal with the random NIC names (literally, on one server they'd be named blah #4, #85, #30 and #40 on a single 4 port NIC. I have no idea where those numbers come from and the only way to figure out which was which was to pull cables and see which goes down. And as an aside that means I can't bond 2 ports on NICs from different manufacturers, a limitation that doesn't exist in Linux because the bonding module is standard and the drivers are all open source. But I digress... =)

I'm sure local apps, data, etc aren't going away in our lifetime. But the requirements of a specific OS being eroded and Apple is doing their best to exploit that and hopefully Google does too.
 

Griffinhart

Golden Member
Dec 7, 2004
1,130
1
76
The Samsung Tabs already have docks, keyboards, etc being released so why is it so far fetched to think if someone at home using their Tab in a dock with a BT keyboard and mouse for email, Angry Birds, browsing, Google Docs, etc?
We've seen similar concepts in past, of dockable mobile devices. They have been interesting on paper but haven't managed to get many users for one reason or another. It's entirely possible this will be the wave of the future now that portable devices like phones and tablets are an order of magnatude faster than they used to be.

It's also an area that I don't think we'll see any clear winners quite yet, and MS with Win8 may be a serious contender here. If they do what it looks like they are doing, a single platform across all device types will be a seriously strong position.

True, MS is good at pulling upsets and putting out products that have just enough of the features of the current market leaders to erode their lead while working on duplicating the rest of the features. Hyper-V is a good, recent example of that. But they don't seem to get consumers, while Apple, HTC, Motorola, etc do, and that will make their job of gaining mobile marketshare very hard.

It's what Goolge did with Android too. I think the next year or so is going to be really interesting in the phone market. Apple, Google and MS all have a compelling phone product. Apple has the appeal of having the gadget people want to have because it's the cool thing to own. Google has great functionality while having a much broader selection of phones to select from. MS has a great phone, but more importantly, the recent Nokia thing has the potential to explode them onto the scene with a sizable marketshare. Nokia, ouside of the US, is simply everywhere and the brand you see more often than not.


And that's MS' problem. They understand business, not people. And even though Win8 will run on ARM, I think most people have forgotten that tablets used to run Windows at some point. Apple successfully convinced everyone that a giant iPad Touch is a tablet, so now people see them as smaller, locked down devices that can't run Windows apps and that's fine because the App Store and Android Market have enough apps and games for them.
It's infuriating. MS has tons of great products that eventually companies like Apple come out with something similar, improve a few aspects, and then make them poplular. Then when MS finally starts doing what they should have been doing all along we hear "Redmond start your copiers" even though they have had the same basic funtionality all along.

There is some lack of cohesive strategy to bring a lot of this stuff together and then make it known. All the ingredients are there, they are combined, in the pan and in the oven, but they just never turn the damn oven on.

For years we've been hearing Apple TV this, Google TV that, but nothing on the stuff MS has out in homes TODAY and has had in homes for years. Why isn't it widely known that if you have a PC and an Xbox that you can stream video and music to your TV from your PC? Why isn't it known that you can add a card (Or USB) based tuner (Even Cable Card) and add Live TV including premium HD content to your PC like a Tivo box? You can even stream this stuff to multiple TV's in the house. All with a beautiful UI. Every time I have shown people this ability, they are blown away. This stuff is extremely well done, mature, flexible and already in place on every Vista Home or Premium and every copy of Windows 7. Millions and millions of installs where people have no clue that it's there. MS is stunningly incompetent in this regard.


Obviously if you're committed to certain, Windows-only apps then your choices are extremely limited. For work I have a few of those, but an RDP session or small VM can cover those too these days.

There is just no substitute for Photoshop CS5 and OneNote, I've yet to see an Equal. Evernote is popular, but, the handwriting portion of OneNote is amazing and has been an important part of what I use it for. It's less that I am commited to certain windows only apps, amd more than I am committed to using the best tools available for the tasks at hand.


I prefer local apps as well, but I don't mind having a copy of my mail kept in Gmail just in case. Or using Dropbox to get stuff to/from all of my devices at once. A ChromeOS laptop would never fly with me, but a Linux laptop with bits in it to sync with those services would work great.
Substitute Linux with OS of your choice and Laptop with form factor of your choice, and I think we'll see where we eventually will be at.



I'm sure local apps, data, etc aren't going away in our lifetime. But the requirements of a specific OS being eroded and Apple is doing their best to exploit that and hopefully Google does too.

Well, one thing is clear, paradigms are changing. I think there will be a large number of people that really don't need to run any specific OS to do what they want. I think there will be enough cross platform development to make OS a little less relevant. There will still, however, be a large portion of the market that will go Windows because it's what they know and use at work.

Perhaps the most important thing that Windows 8 has going for it is that it IS Windows. While IT departments have to figure out how to incorporate iOS and Android devices into their infrastructure Windows 8 will allow them to easily fit tablets, desktops, laptops and possibly phones, into existing environments. If Windows 8 is compelling enough on the alternate computing platforms MS can win big here.

It's an interesting time ahead of us.
 

ShadowVVL

Senior member
May 1, 2010
758
0
71
There is just no substitute for Photoshop CS5

I have to agree, I dled and played with the cs5 trial about 2 months ago and it was amazing compared to gimp. wacom tablet functionality is perfect, but im still sticking with gimp thanks to adobe's ridiculous price tag.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
We've seen similar concepts in past, of dockable mobile devices. They have been interesting on paper but haven't managed to get many users for one reason or another. It's entirely possible this will be the wave of the future now that portable devices like phones and tablets are an order of magnatude faster than they used to be.

It's also an area that I don't think we'll see any clear winners quite yet, and MS with Win8 may be a serious contender here. If they do what it looks like they are doing, a single platform across all device types will be a seriously strong position.

Yea, there's always been some incredibly huge hole that made them really frustrating or unusable in the previous offerings but now a phone or tablet can have comparable power to a low end desktop. People have gotten full Ubuntu running on Android phones, although I wouldn't want to use the Gnome UI on a phone.

A single platform on them all sounds like a good thing up front and has advantages, but it also means that 1 exploit can potentially affect everything you own. Imagine a website that can install fake A/V on your phone, tablet and PC. =) And WP7 is so limited compared to everything else, I'm sure they'll put restrictions on what you can on Win8 on non-PC devices in the name of performance and battery life. So even though they'll all be running Windows, they'll be different enough that it won't really be 1 platform in anything other than name and look and feel.

It's what Goolge did with Android too. I think the next year or so is going to be really interesting in the phone market. Apple, Google and MS all have a compelling phone product. Apple has the appeal of having the gadget people want to have because it's the cool thing to own. Google has great functionality while having a much broader selection of phones to select from. MS has a great phone, but more importantly, the recent Nokia thing has the potential to explode them onto the scene with a sizable marketshare. Nokia, ouside of the US, is simply everywhere and the brand you see more often than not.

And depending on how you look at it, what Apple did to RIM and/or Palm too. And Apple didn't even want apps on iOS, they were pushing for web apps so everything would just be a bookmark in mobile safari but eventually they changed their mind and created the App Store to capitalize on it. Apple took the "premium" market and Google decided they could apply their Linux experience to the rest of the spectrum, including the high end, and it seems to be working. Pretty much every day I see the announcement of a new Android phone. It looks like Apple's extremely tight grip on their products is going to relegate them to a niche in this market as well.

Nokia definitely owns the cell phone market in the rest of the world, but I thought that was mostly dumb/feature phones? They don't seem to know what they want to do with smartphones. They've touched on Meego, Android and now they've jumped in with MS and, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any sort of timeline or product plan from either of them. Just an announcement about a partnership. I'm don't doubt it'll help WP7 adoption, but I'm thinking it might be too little too late.

It's infuriating. MS has tons of great products that eventually companies like Apple come out with something similar, improve a few aspects, and then make them poplular. Then when MS finally starts doing what they should have been doing all along we hear "Redmond start your copiers" even though they have had the same basic funtionality all along.

There is some lack of cohesive strategy to bring a lot of this stuff together and then make it known. All the ingredients are there, they are combined, in the pan and in the oven, but they just never turn the damn oven on.

For years we've been hearing Apple TV this, Google TV that, but nothing on the stuff MS has out in homes TODAY and has had in homes for years. Why isn't it widely known that if you have a PC and an Xbox that you can stream video and music to your TV from your PC? Why isn't it known that you can add a card (Or USB) based tuner (Even Cable Card) and add Live TV including premium HD content to your PC like a Tivo box? You can even stream this stuff to multiple TV's in the house. All with a beautiful UI. Every time I have shown people this ability, they are blown away. This stuff is extremely well done, mature, flexible and already in place on every Vista Home or Premium and every copy of Windows 7. Millions and millions of installs where people have no clue that it's there. MS is stunningly incompetent in this regard.

Sort of like tablets, MS essentially had them first but they were so cumbersome, problematic and un-marketed that no one outside of a few die hard Windows people knew they even existed. Now that MS has refined it, it's too late.

There is just no substitute for Photoshop CS5 and OneNote, I've yet to see an Equal. Evernote is popular, but, the handwriting portion of OneNote is amazing and has been an important part of what I use it for. It's less that I am commited to certain windows only apps, amd more than I am committed to using the best tools available for the tasks at hand.

I don't need PS, GIMP does what I need just fine. And I've never touched OneNote, if I do take notes in a meeting it's usually just in gvim, notepad or Word. But no matter how awesome OneNote is, I wouldn't switch to Windows just for it. =)

Substitute Linux with OS of your choice and Laptop with form factor of your choice, and I think we'll see where we eventually will be at.

Obviously, I was saying specifically for me.

Well, one thing is clear, paradigms are changing. I think there will be a large number of people that really don't need to run any specific OS to do what they want. I think there will be enough cross platform development to make OS a little less relevant. There will still, however, be a large portion of the market that will go Windows because it's what they know and use at work.

Perhaps the most important thing that Windows 8 has going for it is that it IS Windows. While IT departments have to figure out how to incorporate iOS and Android devices into their infrastructure Windows 8 will allow them to easily fit tablets, desktops, laptops and possibly phones, into existing environments. If Windows 8 is compelling enough on the alternate computing platforms MS can win big here.

It's an interesting time ahead of us.

It will take a very long time for most corporations to migrate away from MS products, but I would love to see it. It's funny how companies will be ultra paranoid about physical storage of documents and yet are willing to store the electronic versions in black boxes of proprietary formats. There is absolutely no reason that corporations, and especially governments, should be storing their docs in anything that's not 100% open and standard.

I think WP7 and Win8 are different enough that it won't be as seamless of an integration as you're hinting at, but I'm sure there will be extra MS-only features that will make them attractive to places. Another problem is that Google and Apple are liked brands, while MS is just something that's perceived as required, like electricity. I don't pay Duq Light because I like their company, service, etc, I just do it because I have to if I want electricity. MS has that feel pretty much every company I look at, they don't use Windows because they like it, they use it because it's the de facto standard and they don't want to risk being the odd man out.
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
2
76
W7 is Windows Vista with a few tweaks which MS ought to have published as updates to Vista.

So now we will have some more GUI changes, which OUGHT to be pushed out as additional Vista updates, but MS hornswaggled people into paying for a whole new OS, W7.

More of what should be free updates, mostly to the GUI, but MS wants us to PAY to buy the essentially same OS AGAIN.

LINUX is the future!!!

really? a re engineered kernel structure is a 'tweak'?

you probably said the same thing about vista and xp too right?


I will try out Windows 8 like I did with Windows 7 before sticking with Windows XP. Maybe Windows 9 will be the OS which will make me upgrade from Windows XP. lol ;)



arent they cutting support for XPin the next 18-24months?

I wouldnt run an OS that isnt getting security and driver updates.

if you can't handle the change to 7(unless its due to some app you cant seem to get to work, but sorry, I have configured a few dos vm's that work just fine so thats unlikely) you are just lazy or too stupid to change
 
Last edited:

nemesismk2

Diamond Member
Sep 29, 2001
4,810
5
76
www.ultimatehardware.net
really? a re engineered kernel structure is a 'tweak'?

you probably said the same thing about vista and xp too right?

arent they cutting support for XPin the next 18-24months?

I wouldnt run an OS that isnt getting security and driver updates.

if you can't handle the change to 7(unless its due to some app you cant seem to get to work, but sorry, I have configured a few dos vm's that work just fine so thats unlikely) you are just lazy or too stupid to change

The last I heard is that Windows XP will reach it's end of life on 08/04/2014. After that there will be no support from Microsoft such as security patches or updates etc.

Why are you calling me lazy and stupid?

I just like Windows XP and can get more work done faster with that.
 
Last edited:

GrumpyMan

Diamond Member
May 14, 2001
5,780
266
136
Have you used it or you just hate things you never tried before? Don't knock something till you try it.

I'm using this, its similar and honestly it works out really well. access to all information and apps is a lot quicker

1280i.jpg


To me personally (not knocking you taste or anything) that looks really ugly and I would never in a million years have my desktop look like that. I might use something like that for a laptop or netbook, but that's about it.
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
2
76
The last I heard is that Windows XP will reach it's end of life on 08/04/2014. After that there will be no support from Microsoft such as security patches or updates etc.

Why are you calling me lazy and stupid?

I just like Windows XP and can get more work done faster with that.

I said lazy OR stupid. and it was voerly harsh sorry

I was assuming lazy :p

7 when you get used to it will allow you to work way faster.

they need to stop pushing back XP support if they are really commiting to 7/8
 
Last edited:

nemesismk2

Diamond Member
Sep 29, 2001
4,810
5
76
www.ultimatehardware.net
I said lazy OR stupid. and it was voerly harsh sorry

I was assuming lazy :p

7 when you get used to it will allow you to work way faster.

they need to stop pushing back XP support if they are really commiting to 7/8

you are atleast 50% right, I am not stupid just a bit lazy lol ;)

I already have windows 7 (used it before service pack 1 so maybe will give windows 7 another go with service pack 1) but didnt really like it so just continued using windows xp instead of taking the time to really learn how to use it well.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
They are going to have to do something about tablets and the interface. Currently having used various tablet interfaces with windows 7 it just doesn't work well. No matter how well you adjust the current OS there will be at least one thing every day that irks you with how it performs on the interface because you tapped somewhere and something happened you didn't want, or a finger tap was interpreted as a double click.
I have a calculator program that I use in windows that works well with a mouse or keyboard but touch screen forget it. Even when trying carefully not to, a tap of the 0 key will give you 000 sometimes and 00 others.

A touch interface OS is a tricky thing. Screens are smaller on touch devices so making everything larger leaves no room for the information the user wants.
 

spikespiegal

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2005
1,219
9
76
I cringe every time I have to work on a Win2K3 server or XP machine now.

I just finished a gig a few month ago with a health care provider rebuilding all the mucked up Citrix boxes in their data center. After a lot of pondering they decided to stay with Server 2003, and frankly their engineers and IT directors had better reasons to stay than you do to migrate. After rebuilding the boxes from scratch on XenApp 5 performance was actually better than Server 2008, straight Win 7 desktops or *ANY* bloody incarnation VDI.

I just recently took over data center opps for a large school district, and the previous geek has everything on Server 2008. Only real advantage I'm encountering is Server 2008 meshes really, really nice with mass storage topologies, and unlike 2003 is actually aware there is a SANs going on and can perform gymnastics accordingly. Otherwise, it's that same old MS crap where Exchange servers stop clustering for no reason and AD piles up hordes of cryptic Kerberos Event log errors which google as INII (it's normal - ignore it). Also, Exchange takes great advantage of 16gig of RAM so Store.EXE doesn't have to write to disk as often with it's high performance (Gag) Jet database engine. Why are we 64-bit again?

I also like the fact that you can brush up on your regedit skills adding manual ARP entries in 2008's network config so it stops fist fighting with local Cisco appliances with DHCP turned on (not my fault). Who needs malware when somebody at MS doesn't quite get IP discovery, and can brick a Server with something as simple as that. But, but, but, but 64-bit is faster. All in all, better SANs integration is about the only saving grace with Server 2008. Claiming it's better than Server 2003 when I can run an enterprise and all their apps on the later at 1/2 the infrastructure costs is a bit arrogant. Frankly I'm sick of discussing OS's in Enterprise environments because all it does is make CIO's look harder at cloud hosting, which I don't blame them. Nobody runs operating systems instead of applications.

Win 7 suits me fine for multimedia, and I've never liked XP given it was a downgrade from Win 2000, especially given XP's greater bloat and worse network performance. I also agree it's more secure with Malware than XP and doesn't have to be sandboxed as heavily to prevent unauthorized data execution. Vista > Win 7 was otherwise the best marketing move since Coke > New Coke. Win 8 is being pushed mostly for cash influx reasons, although I'm not opposed to it.
 

HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,838
39
91
To me personally (not knocking you taste or anything) that looks really ugly and I would never in a million years have my desktop look like that. I might use something like that for a laptop or netbook, but that's about it.

wasnt meant to look good nor said such. i was just saying it is in fact useful and easy to use with mouse/kb. Cause many are trying to say it can't without even trying such.
But seems obvious MS's intent for this interface is tablets. They still have the standard interface as was displayed very briefly in their demo.
many are working themselves up over nothing. its an addition, an option. nothing wrong with options.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
putting xp on any of my computers is the equivalent to giving them aids!

Only if you insist on ignoring every safety precaution, which is the equivalent of sharing needles with a bunch of homeless junkies.
 

uberman

Golden Member
Sep 15, 2006
1,942
1
81
I'm not fond of WIN7. I still like XP and I use WIN98SE on a music and movie machine. I can't see really being very happy with anything new created by Microsoft.

I'm wondering if I'd be happy with Linux? Not sure what flavor of that to go to or which website to start at, since there are so many.

It just feels that with each new edition of Windows that it is Windows that is the boss, rather than the user. Windows seems less configureable and tamper resistant with each newer version. And much larger OSs which are resource hogs. That is IMHO, and the info was free.
 
Last edited:
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
W7 is Windows Vista with a few tweaks which MS ought to have published as updates to Vista.

So now we will have some more GUI changes, which OUGHT to be pushed out as additional Vista updates, but MS hornswaggled people into paying for a whole new OS, W7.

More of what should be free updates, mostly to the GUI, but MS wants us to PAY to buy the essentially same OS AGAIN.

LINUX is the future!!!

It is the future and Linux isn't it.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
I'm not fond of WIN7. I still like XP and I use WIN98SE on a music and movie machine. I can't see really being very happy with anything new created by Microsoft.

I'm wondering if I'd be happy with Linux? Not sure what flavor of that to go to or which website to start at, since there are so many.

It just feels that with each new edition of Windows that it is Windows that is the boss, rather than the user. Windows seems less configureable and tamper resistant with each newer version. And much larger OSs which are resource hogs. That is IMHO, and the info was free.

Win 7 is hardly a resource hog. It is much more optimized that Vista, and It actually runs better on some hardware than XP. Windows 7 has so many more useful features than XP.
How do you mean less configurable? And Tamper resistant is a good thing. Ever hear of Secuirty?