Windows 7 Boot Drive Confusion

[MehmetN]

Dear All,

I am pretty sure people encountered similar problems and even though I do know my IT to a degree I'd be the first to admit that I've been out of the loop for a very long time so searching and reading up on it did not help at all.

Therefore, apologies if this exact same problem was posted at any point.

I do understand from other posts what my problem might be but I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing both in understanding the Win7 sense and making most of my SSD drive sense.

Set-up:

Win7 Ultimate with both the 64 bit and 32 bit DVDs (naturally, haven't used the 32 bit one yet)

i5 2500k on Asus P8Z68-V Pro with 8 GB DDR3 RAM and an MSI 6950 TwinFrozr III. Marvell Chip is off from BIOS (don't need it, optical drive is SATA 3Gb/s).

OCZ Agility 3 60 GB SSD (as far as I can tell it is on the first SATA 6 Gb/s slot) AHCI on BIOS

WD 1TB Caviar Black (same goes, on second slot) AHCI on BIOS

Problem space:

First install was problematic. The 100 MB boot section for Win7 was on WD.

I cleaned up the SSD (Part Magic or some such) and did a reinstall thinking I am putting everything OS related on the SSD.

Used it a couple of days. Left it overnight for my Steam downloads. Got a backup.

Did some more Steam downloads and in the morning had a BSOD and hit the "Bootmgr not found" problem. FWIW, Steam is on WD along with games.

Tried to recover, failed.

Wiped SSD, tried to restore image, got message "D: (WD) will be wiped clean for this to happen" or something like that making me think that the 100 MB partition was indeed on the WD again for some reason.

Wiped again, reinstalled, did the same things and got a BSOD again with "Bootmgr not found" problem.

This time Win7 could fix the boot problem but now I have a C: (OS), a D: (100 MB, I don't know which physical drive it is on, I will check when I'm back home) which I suspect would have been invisible if it was the boot drive for Win7 and an E: (WD).

I am starting to suspect that the physical arrangement of the drives is the problem and I am thinking about doing the following.

Oh, and most importantly, Win7 thinks my WD is a system disk so I can't back up onto it.

Proposed solution:

Check that SSD is indeed on the first SATA 6Gb/s slot.
Check from bios that it is the "Drive 0".
Backup all the data to an external drive from WD.
Remove WD SATA cable.
Wipe SSD using Parted Magic RAM Drive Linux DVD thingie.
Install Win7 from scratch.
Reattach WD.
Wipe clean WD using the same bootable DVD.
In OS, partition and format WD as desired.
Q: Should I avoid "active" tag for this HDD?
Profit.

At last:
1. Would this solve my problem? Do you think my problem is related to this at all?

2. If this is not a likely problem-solution pair, what do you recommend I do? I really do want to fix this myself as the repairs/warranty sections of the company where I bought the parts are fair but notoriously slow.

3. Also, do you think wiping an SSD and then restoring an image would cause problems in the "SSD alignment" sense? Should I first create partitions and format using Win7 DVD?

Thanks for reading this and any suggestions will be appreciated!

Cheers...

 

[stargazr]

The problem is with Win 7 you cannot have any other drives connected during install, or for some reason it gets confused with the boot table. I would just unplug the WD drive like you suggested yourself. If you format the SSD from the install disc and reload the OS you should be fine. And yeah, the WD should be cleaned up too.

If you set the controller to AHCI for the SSD, you would need to install drivers when prompted early in the install or it will blue screen.

Doing an image won't work because the boot structure is messed up. remember? If you have data that's important you will have to save it on an external drive before formatting.

FTR there can be alignment problems imaging to an SSD, but there are programs to fix that (Paragon has one).

 

[MehmetN]

The problem is with Win 7 you cannot have any other drives connected during install, or for some reason it gets confused with the boot table. I would just unplug the WD drive like you suggested yourself. If you format the SSD from the install disc and reload the OS you should be fine. And yeah, the WD should be cleaned up too.

Cheers for that. I will do this. Would it matter re the physical sequence of drives on the SATA controller?

If you set the controller to AHCI for the SSD, you would need to install drivers when prompted early in the install or it will blue screen.

Never have been prompted for them. What do you mean? They have always been in AHCI mode. Could this be the problem? Maybe when it tries to garbage collect or TRIM or something? Should I switch this to IDE for my fresh install?

Doing an image won't work because the boot structure is messed up. remember? If you have data that's important you will have to save it on an external drive before formatting.

Apologies, my mistake, wasn't clear in the OP. My 3rd question is a general one. To reiterate: "Once I've got my system up and running with this problem out of the way, do you think wiping an SSD and then restoring an image would cause problems in the 'SSD alignment' sense?"

FTR there can be alignment problems imaging to an SSD, but there are programs to fix that (Paragon has one).

I do not image to an SSD (moneys) but image the OS on the SSD to my WD. Would restoring this image to a wiped SSD using Win7 cause problems "alignment-wise?"

Cheers!

 

[stargazr]

It doesn't matter whether the boot drive is on channel 0 or 1 etc.

Not sure why you didn't have trouble with the AHCI setting. All I know is every time I tried it I got a blue screen.

AFAIK there could be problems imaging from a different size drive, but like I said there are programs to fix that.

 

[MehmetN]

Thank you stargzr. This answers a lot of my questions - especially the physical arrangement ones.

However, for my OCZ Agility 3, a lot of people say I'd be much better off using AHCI and I cannot find any drivers for that mode (again, people say Win7 would sort this out). I am starting to think that my BSOD's could be because of this - I'll look into it more.

Cheers!

 

[stargazr]

Thank you stargzr. This answers a lot of my questions - especially the physical arrangement ones.

However, for my OCZ Agility 3, a lot of people say I'd be much better off using AHCI and I cannot find any drivers for that mode (again, people say Win7 would sort this out). I am starting to think that my BSOD's could be because of this - I'll look into it more.

Cheers!

I should have explained that further. Yes, it is a good idea to have AHCI set on an SSD. There are ways to get around this without loading the drivers. Here's a link to a recent thread with more links to information on these methods, as well as older threads on this topic.

One involves a registry tweak with a very easy to use utility available to download (I can vouch for this method, as well as others in older linked thread). Another member said to load the OS with the drive on IDE, then after setting it to AHCI use the Win 7 install disc's repair mode to load the proper drivers although I haven't tried that myself.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2196640

 

[MehmetN]

I should have explained that further. Yes, it is a good idea to have AHCI set on an SSD. There are ways to get around this without loading the drivers. Here's a link to a recent thread with more links to information on these methods, as well as older threads on this topic.

One involves a registry tweak with a very easy to use utility available to download (I can vouch for this method, as well as others in older linked thread). Another member said to load the OS with the drive on IDE, then after setting it to AHCI use the Win 7 install disc's repair mode to load the proper drivers although I haven't tried that myself.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2196640

OK, please bear with me, not a native speaker, apologies (also, I quite often have this pitfall, you know, thinking I understood some basic issue involved while being off by a million miles all along).

I am going to do a clean install now since the boot structure is messed up.

I was hoping to do it like this: (a) Enable AHCI on BIOS. (b) Use a bootable linux disk thingie to wipe both drives. (c) Unplug WD (d) Install OS (e) Plug WD.

Now, my SSD has no drivers that come with it. I also thought Win7 recognises SSD's and AHCI mode to install proper MS drivers.

Is this incorrect? At which stage I should be installing drivers? This is assuming I am to install drivers from Win7 setup DVD.

Sorry to be a pain, just want to make sure I understand the issue.

Cheers...

 

[stargazr]

OK, please bear with me, not a native speaker, apologies (also, I quite often have this pitfall, you know, thinking I understood some basic issue involved while being off by a million miles all along).

I am going to do a clean install now since the boot structure is messed up.

I was hoping to do it like this: (a) Enable AHCI on BIOS. (b) Use a bootable linux disk thingie to wipe both drives. (c) Unplug WD (d) Install OS (e) Plug WD.

Now, my SSD has no drivers that come with it. I also thought Win7 recognises SSD's and AHCI mode to install proper MS drivers.

Is this incorrect? At which stage I should be installing drivers? This is assuming I am to install drivers from Win7 setup DVD.

Sorry to be a pain, just want to make sure I understand the issue.

Cheers...

No problem, no worries

The reason I gave you the links to older threads is that this is a can of worms in itself. There are different opinions as to whether AHCI needs to be set at all with an SSD, if you're using an OS that supports TRIM like Win 7. AHCI also supports features such as NCQ and hot swapping.

Normally, when you set AHCI there will be a message very early in the install process prompting you to hit the F6 key to load AHCI drivers ( XP was like this). They are for the controller, not the drive. Win 7 should have the drivers AFAIK. On a HDD this would probably work fine, no F6 involved. I think this is an SSD issue where there is usually a problem loading the drivers at this point. Someone more knowledgeable can clarify. I used IDE mode, and the registry change previously mentioned.

Also I suggest formatting the SSD with the Win 7 disc to prevent alignment issues. It's easier too.

 

[MehmetN]

Thank you stargzr. I have most of my problems sorted out now. Got my new set-up going.

Although, the core of my problems was not boot sector in weird places (a symptom actually) - it was OCZ Agility 3. As it turns out there is a dark (or rather blue) side to that product.

I've flashed the FW to latest and disabled trim - we'll see if it's going to be more stable now.

Cheers!

 

[stargazr]

Sounds good. Hope the firmware update clears this up for you. Unfortunately OCZ drives seem to have a relatively high percentage of *issues*.

 

[MehmetN]

Oh dear. I think this rig is cursed. Got a power failure and now my Bios and Win7 can see but do nothing on my WD.

I am a very unlucky bloke.

Cheers for your helps mate, I think I'll go and kick something now.

 

[stargazr]

Damn. Did you update the BIOS?

What PSU?

 

[MehmetN]

Damn. Did you update the BIOS?

What do you mean? BIOS sees the disk (the WD 1 TB where everything other than OS resided) but everything says it is a bad disk and cannot create a partition. Not really bothered about the data (sets me back a day at most, only games etc.) - can't initialise the disk. Also Win7 takes forever to boot up (guessing it searches for TMP and user folders and such).

What PSU?

It is a 750 Watt 80+ Bronze Cooler Master own brand (can't remember its name).

Pretty bummed now, was planning a gaming weekend and now I'll have to go back to the vendor and jump hoops. Might as well buy a new drive
while I'm at it. Darnedestest...

Anyways, not the end of the world, eh?

Cheers!

 

[MehmetN]

ADD: Partition Recovery Wizard on the Minitool Partition Wizard is going through the disk. It can see the number of sectors. GOing thorugh them in an extremely slow manner to find something. It sees a "deleted/lost" partition there. It can't be the controller then, can it? If I'd lost the controller (and by that I may be meaning a completely different thing - I mean the board on the drive) it should go "nothing there to see matey" shouldn't it? I may be misunderstanding these concepts - just a materials scientist, no IT pro - but it seems like if it can see that there is a disk and there are sectors albeit problematic, it should be salvagable - the disk I mean.

Should I move this issue to the Storage by the way? Other would learn from this I suppose...

Cheers...

 

[stargazr]

There are many issues with Sandy Bridge MB's, some of which are addressed with BIOS updates. Seems like a lot of HDD problems. I would visit your mb manufacturer's webpage -
http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Z68V_PRO/

and, in the downloads section choose your OS, and see what version is the latest BIOS. Get into the BIOS and see what version your mb currently has. If it is an earlier version I would consider updating. Your MB manual should instruct you on the procedure. If there are two ways to do it, make sure you don't update through Windows. Use a USB flash drive or burn a CD and boot from that.

Flashing the BIOS is usually pretty easy. Know that it's very important not to lose power during a flash. Updating the BIOS is risky. You mentioned something about losing power?

Also I wouldn't wipe the WD drive until you sort these issues out, your data may still be intact.

This should be in the Motherboard forum. The Z68 chipset seems to require particular BIOS settings and I don't have this hardware personally.

 

[MehmetN]

There are many issues with Sandy Bridge MB's, some of which are addressed with BIOS updates. Seems like a lot of HDD problems. I would visit your mb manufacturer's webpage -
http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Z68V_PRO/

and, in the downloads section choose your OS, and see what version is the latest BIOS. Get into the BIOS and see what version your mb currently has. If it is an earlier version I would consider updating. Your MB manual should instruct you on the procedure. If there are two ways to do it, make sure you don't update through Windows. Use a USB flash drive or burn a CD and boot from that.

Flashing the BIOS is usually pretty easy. Know that it's very important not to lose power during a flash. Updating the BIOS is risky. You mentioned something about losing power?

Also I wouldn't wipe the WD drive until you sort these issues out, your data may still be intact.

This should be in the Motherboard forum. The Z68 chipset seems to require particular BIOS settings and I don't have this hardware personally.

Ah, I see what you mean. I've got the second more recent BIOS rev. New one does not seem to address my issue but I will flash it anyway. If this doesn't solve my problem (WD lifeguard thinks the drive is healthy but can't wipe it by the way - lol) I'll go spend my kid's college fund on a new drive while waiting for the vendor to replace my beautiful caviar black brick

Cheers...

 

[MehmetN]

OK, new BIOS.

Although no change. Bios and OS can see the disk but it says (when I try to initialise it) "Request cannot be completed due to I/O read error" or some such.

Stumped. I think I'll have to go to the vendor. Like I said, I do not care about the data, I just need to initialise the disk and can easily download from Steam again. Could AHCI mode limit my options? Should I try IDE and partitioning on a boot disk or something?

Also, if a moderator / Admin could change the title to "Data disk lost after power loss" or something like that and move this to Storage, I'd be grateful.

Cheers...

 

[MehmetN]

Update.

I am very happy that I decided to take the Caviar Black to the vendor today. By tomorrow, they would have sent it to the distributor but today they told me that they will check to see if it is a "soft" problem and fix it or (most probably) give me a replacement. They will do one or the other within the next 48 hours.

Since I was there and they had a 25% sale I got myself a Caviar Green to just use as a data dump too. Everything is alright now.

Thanks mate, all your help during these dark times (of not playing games, really, I'm hoping to mature at some point) greatly appreciated.

Cheers!