Windows 3.1 and the internet

[imported_goku]

I'm glad to know that you believe filling up system ram with redundant information is "wise use" of ram. Good, I guess you also believe that 80MB of ram being sucked away from AOHELL is being put to "good use". Or the 30Mb of ram being wasted by Kazaa or any online client (Aim, Kazaa, e-mule etc.) Is also "wise" use of memory. Yes I thank you for providing those links but what pisses me off is when you say I created this thread to get around the SYSTEM Cache Thread because it was blocked. I simply mentioned it because another user from that THREAD mentioned it HERE! It seems like its also VERY CLEAR that you never used Windows 3.1 for longer than a minute. Don't rag on people who use older operating systems because you think they are "out dated" or they aren't 32bit. Heck if I could use internet explorer in dos, I would be surfing the internet on my IBM 8088! If you were a true Power user, you wouldn't mind assigning IRQs to your devices or figuring out how to install complicated software because at the end of the day most Power users ARE constantly Tweaking their machine or TRYING to see if you can play CS on a 386 (Not that you could/would but atleast to TRY!). Every auto techie I know is CONSTANTLY tweaking his/her car because they simply want to get more familiar with it.

One more note, Windows 3.0 was the first Windows OS to have VM! And I know this because a VERY VERY Long time ago I read a book on Windows 3.0 and yes I said Windows 3.0. I have the book right beside me, telling me the Wonderful features of Windows 3.0. Only thing that surprised me, is that it never mentioned the virus scanner built into windows 3.0 (I know for SURE it's in 3.1 but unsure about 3.0).

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: goku2100
I'm glad to know that you believe filling up system ram with redundant information is "wise use" of ram. Good, I guess you also believe that 80MB of ram being sucked away from AOHELL is being put to "good use". Or the 30Mb of ram being wasted by Kazaa or any online client (Aim, Kazaa, e-mule etc.) Is also "wise" use of memory. Yes I thank you for providing those links but what pisses me off is when you say I created this thread to get around the SYSTEM Cache Thread because it was blocked. I simply mentioned it because another user from that THREAD mentioned it HERE! It seems like its also VERY CLEAR that you never used Windows 3.1 for longer than a minute. Don't rag on people who use older operating systems because you think they are "out dated" or they aren't 32bit. Heck if I could use internet explorer in dos, I would be surfing the internet on my IBM 8088! If you were a true Power user, you wouldn't mind assigning IRQs to your devices or figuring out how to install complicated software because at the end of the day most Power users ARE constantly Tweaking their machine or TRYING to see if you can play CS on a 386 (Not that you could/would but atleast to TRY!). Every auto techie I know is CONSTANTLY tweaking his/her car because they simply want to get more familiar with it.

One more note, VM started with Windows 3.0! And I know this because a VERY VERY Long time ago I read a book on Windows 3.0 and yes I said Windows 3.0. I have the book right beside me, telling me the Wonderful features of Windows 3.0. Only thing that surprised me, is that it never mentioned the virus scanner built into windows 3.0 (I know for SURE it's in 3.1 but unsure about 3.0).

Windows 3.0 was the first OS to have VM? Interesting.

By your definition I'm not much of a poweruser. I don't tweak a whole heck of a lot. 🙁

 

[bsobel]

I'm glad to know that you believe filling up system ram with redundant information is "wise use" of ram. Good, I guess you also believe that 80MB of ram being sucked away from AOHELL is being put

Ugh, it's not redundant.

Only thing that surprised me, is that it never mentioned the virus scanner built into windows 3.0 (I know for SURE it's in 3.1 but unsure about 3.0).

Your wrong (again). Windows 3.0 and Windows 3.1 (and Windows 3.11) did not have a virus scanner DOS 6 (6.22?) did include a dos scanner (it was licensed from CentralPoint, who we later acquired), but that was NOT part of Windows.

also VERY CLEAR that you never used Windows 3.1 for longer than a minute

Before you go there with me, I wrong Norton Desktop for Windows and had been doing Windows 3.0 development very early in the beta process. I knew that OS inside and out (mostly because we wound up rewriting big parts of it to do what we wanted)

but what pisses me off is when you say I created this thread to get around the SYSTEM Cache Thread because it was blocked

Keep it up and this one will be too.

Bill

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: goku2100
Heck if I could use internet explorer in dos, I would be surfing the internet on my IBM 8088!

Speed isn't great, but do a search for "Arachne", it was a web browser (and I think e-mail client too) written in DOS. It was kind of a neat creation.

Originally posted by: goku2100
One more note, VM started with Windows 3.0!

If you are talking about the use of virtual memory in Windows'-based OSes, then you would be correct. If you are talking about VM usage in OSes in general, then no.

An interesting fact, you actually don't need a 386 for virtual memory support in Windows 3.0. You see, there are actually two different layers of "virtual memory" in Win3.1. One is based on 16-bit protected-mode code, and uses "swapping", it can swap unused 16-bit pmode segments out to disk. The other does require a 386, to implement "386 Enhanced Mode", which allowed things like paging, and being allowed to open more than one DOS-box window at a time, since the OS could use the 386's v86 mode to create multiple virtual DOS machines.

So in fact, the "virtual memory pagefile" in Win3.1, and all of the Win9x OSes, are actually a combination hybrid of both "swapping" (segment-based) and "paging".

(Neat slightly-related fact - IIRC, I think VMS also had a seperate swap and paging file, because it also supported both mechanisms.)

Originally posted by: goku2100
is that it never mentioned the virus scanner built into windows 3.0 (I know for SURE it's in 3.1 but unsure about 3.0).

Like bsobel mentioned below, there was no built-in virus-scanner, but if you ran the included Win16 installer that came with "MS-DOS 6.22 with Enhanced Tools", it would install Program Manager shortcuts to Win16 versions of the AV bundled with DOS 6.22.

Ok, no more replies from me in this thread, I'm having Program Manager flashbacks now. 🙁

 

[imported_goku]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry

Originally posted by: goku2100
Heck if I could use internet explorer in dos, I would be surfing the internet on my IBM 8088!

Speed isn't great, but do a search for "Arachne", it was a web browser (and I think e-mail client too) written in DOS. It was kind of a neat creation.

Originally posted by: goku2100
One more note, VM started with Windows 3.0!

If you are talking about the use of virtual memory in Windows'-based OSes, then you would be correct. If you are talking about VM usage in OSes in general, then no.

An interesting fact, you actually don't need a 386 for virtual memory support in Windows 3.0. You see, there are actually two different layers of "virtual memory" in Win3.1. One is based on 16-bit protected-mode code, and uses "swapping", it can swap unused 16-bit pmode segments out to disk. The other does require a 386, to implement "386 Enhanced Mode", which allowed things like paging, and being allowed to open more than one DOS-box window at a time, since the OS could use the 386's v86 mode to create multiple virtual DOS machines.

So in fact, the "virtual memory pagefile" in Win3.1, and all of the Win9x OSes, are actually a combination hybrid of both "swapping" (segment-based) and "paging".

(Neat slightly-related fact - IIRC, I think VMS also had a seperate swap and paging file, because it also supported both mechanisms.)

Originally posted by: goku2100
is that it never mentioned the virus scanner built into windows 3.0 (I know for SURE it's in 3.1 but unsure about 3.0).

Like bsobel mentioned below, there was no built-in virus-scanner, but if you ran the included Win16 installer that came with "MS-DOS 6.22 with Enhanced Tools", it would install Program Manager shortcuts to Win16 versions of the AV bundled with DOS 6.22.

Ok, no more replies from me in this thread, I'm having Program Manager flashbacks now. 🙁

Ah, that makes sense with the virus scanner. Yes I didn't know that the virus scanner was a part of dos 6.22. Didn't know that you could still use "swapping" a simplier form of virtual memory in Windows 3.1 on 286based machines (Including lower too). Oh and thanks for the web browser tip! Maybe I should run the system with dos for the internet and Windows 3.1 for other applications. Having not tried it yet (I'm on vacation) does anyone know if the archane browser for dos includes a dialer or not?

 

[CQuinn]

Originally posted by: goku2100
Ask your self, if you have ever used Windows 3.1, Do I recognize a button called 386 Enhanced? Where has this reappeared over and over and over agian through out Windows' Recent Existance. Do you know what was so amazing about the 386 Processor? I do, you know what it was??? Virtual Memory, the memory that lets you extend your existing Physical memory.

It's been so long I had to do a google search to refresh my memory...

http://www.knowwareglobal.com/...al/optimal_windows.htm">http://www.knowwareglobal.com/...al/optimal_windows.htm</a>

"Win 3.1 can run in protected or enhanced mode. While Windows is running in enhanced mode, every DOS program is given memory as if it were running on an 8086-based PC. If you have four DOS programs running, you are simulating four of the classic PCs. This mode is called Virtual 8086, shortened to V86 mode, and here the 386 processor simulates an 8086 processor, while it runs in protected mode."

 

[imported_goku]

T'was what VirtualLarry Meant? If So, I knew of it 1000 fortnights ago.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: goku2100
T'was what VirtualLarry Meant? If So, I knew of it 1000 fortnights ago.

You might want to re-consider your arithmetic, just a little bit.
A fortnight is 14 days, or two weeks. 1000 fortnights, is 14000 days, or more than 38 years ago.

According to this link, Windows 3.0 was released on May 22, 1990. That's only a little bit over 14 years ago. I suspect that it doesn't matter though, since I somehow doubt that you are even old enough to have existed for 1000 fortnights.

 

[imported_goku]

Yea I knew it was 2 weeks but didn't bother doing the calculations for how long it was (Approx 10yrs) LOL! Before then, I was mainly clueless but knew alot just not enough about VM or any of that crap.

 

[Modder N Art]

All these ugly flashbacks are all well and good, but what about Win 3.1 and the Internet?

I have a 486 laptop with 4mb RAM out of the closet, and I'd like to get it on the internet. All it has to do is sit there and display a web cam page all day.

It seems ones does indeed need a third party TCP/IP stack, and that's what's hard to find today.

I'd consider trying to upgrade it to Win95, if it had a CD drive, or had a USB port to hook up an external.

Lisa

 

[VirtualLarry]

Could always download GEOS or a QNX trial version, I think it includes a network stack.
4MB of RAM isn't enough to even support a Windows' OS showing a BSOD screen, never mind run anything though.
I don't think a 486 has enough "juice" to handle the compression overhead for showing a webcam either.

Edit: OMG, what did I do, I just bumped this thread. Sorry, sleep-deprivation calls...

 

[jhu]

Originally posted by: Modder N Art
All these ugly flashbacks are all well and good, but what about Win 3.1 and the Internet?

I have a 486 laptop with 4mb RAM out of the closet, and I'd like to get it on the internet. All it has to do is sit there and display a web cam page all day.

It seems ones does indeed need a third party TCP/IP stack, and that's what's hard to find today.

I'd consider trying to upgrade it to Win95, if it had a CD drive, or had a USB port to hook up an external.

Lisa

if it just needs to display a web page, then just get the qnx demo disk. this one-disk os demonstration has support for a few ethernet cards and includes a web browser. you don't even need a harddrive.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: goku2100
Wow you kids have no love for legacy software or hardware. By the sound of things you never used 3.1 with an actual Midrange- Upper Range computer (Meaning that it was midranged back in the day 386,486). To be exact, they stopped with Internet explorer 5.0/ I think 5.5 but likely not. I had Internet explorer 5.0 for Windows 3.1 but I lost it on another machine and haven't been able to find it.

This is for you Nothinman:
I find it funny that you of all people, the one who thinks he is a GURU of Virtual Memory doesn't know that Windows 3.1 was one of the first operating system to pioneer Virtual Memory (To be accurate it's Win 3.0).
Don't believe me? Ask your self, if you have ever used Windows 3.1, Do I recognize a button called 386 Enhanced? Where has this reappeared over and over and over agian through out Windows' Recent Existance. Do you know what was so amazing about the 386 Processor? I do, you know what it was??? Virtual Memory, the memory that lets you extend your existing Physical memory. No more out of memory errors! The only time you can get those is if your out of Hard drive space!

The only time the NT Memory manager does things wrong, is when a program fully maximized or in full use doesnt get the resources it deserves. Like I said, who really gives a sh!t if my start menu will load faster or Internet explorer load quicker if I am using Adobe Premiere and it's been about 7 hours since I used another program. The later Windows Operating Systems are resource hogs and thats my biggest pet-peve, wasted memory.

(I take it back for Bleep,jhu and synthdude2001) Thanks for the help!
Yeah so I am wondering now, how with the network hookup would I be able to get IE to work and get online? I know they have NIC drivers but what about TCP/IP ones, only one i know of is Winsock. (I'm kinda sketchy about this stuff for older systems).

I do, i have a 486 running as a firewall, what i have no love for is DOS which is the operating system nor Win3.1 which is the (optional) gui.

Anyhow, if you are going to run something as crappy as that, at LEAST get 3.11.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: jhu
you kids and your gui operating systems. back in my day, i dialed into the school server and used gopher to "browse the web," although back then we called it that-electronic-information-black-hole-doohicky-thingy.

Yup but i didn't use DOS back then, nor did i use W3.x

 

[Modder N Art]

Originally posted by: jhu

Originally posted by: Modder N Art
All these ugly flashbacks are all well and good, but what about Win 3.1 and the Internet?

I have a 486 laptop with 4mb RAM out of the closet, and I'd like to get it on the internet. All it has to do is sit there and display a web cam page all day.

It seems ones does indeed need a third party TCP/IP stack, and that's what's hard to find today.

I'd consider trying to upgrade it to Win95, if it had a CD drive, or had a USB port to hook up an external.

Lisa

if it just needs to display a web page, then just get the qnx demo disk. this one-disk os demonstration has support for a few ethernet cards and includes a web browser. you don't even need a harddrive.

Lovely, I'll definitely look that up. Thanks for the tip, anc to VirtualLarry as well.

Lisa

 

[Auric]

All this and not one mention of Trumpet or Mosaic? Trumpet made the WinSock that everyone and their cat used in the mid 1990's before Microsoft belately acknowledged "there may just be something to this information superhighway thingy afterall". Ah, the joys of writing one's own dialup scripts. I remember uploading packages of 'em to CompuServe where, much to my delight, they were mighty popular (this was before internet integration with "online services"). It would be cool to try out some of those old programs again... someone mentioned Gopher - I wonder if there are still any servers to connect to? Now I am getting all nostalgic for the days of Archie, Veronica and Jughead. Any good source for proggies older than those at oldversion.com?