Will Western Europe ever be Islamized?

[Carfax83]

It is not self-evident. Islam could become the dominant Religion and not really change much at all or it could be very Fundamentalist. Hell, it could become the dominant Religion and still be a Minority of the population.

Islam by nature is domineering, and it encroaches upon several important aspects of human existence so I can't imagine things not changing much at all compared to the status quo..

If you look at the history of Islam pertaining to conquering and settling non Muslim lands, one repeating pattern asserts itself. Muslims are agreeable and pliant when greatly outnumbered, but as their numbers continues to grow, they become far more aggressive and demanding, to the point of complete and utter intolerance once they have enough strength to gain control..

 

[sandorski]

Islam by nature is domineering, and it encroaches upon several important aspects of human existence so I can't imagine things not changing much at all compared to the status quo..

If you look at the history of Islam pertaining to conquering and settling non Muslim lands, one repeating pattern asserts itself. Muslims are agreeable and pliant when greatly outnumbered, but as their numbers continues to grow, they become far more aggressive and demanding, to the point of complete and utter intolerance once they have enough strength to gain control..

It is the same for all Abrahamic Religions. However, Christianity was eventually forced to give up that tendency. Islam can be forced to give it up as well.

 

[Ronstang]

Doubtful, between the Muslims and Russia another real world war is likely and it will begin in the region. No one will care much about Muslims if anyone survives.

 

[pcgeek11]

Perhaps. If they don't get their head out of their ass and stop all of that BS.

 

[Carfax83]

It is the same for all Abrahamic Religions. However, Christianity was eventually forced to give up that tendency. Islam can be forced to give it up as well.

What on Earth does Christianity and Judaism have to do with this conversation?

Why do Islam apologists always try to make false equivalencies between Islam and other religions, when it's not even valid?

Christianity already had it's fangs pulled out, starting with the strong growth and trend towards secularism combined with the Renaissance movement that occurred in the West centuries ago.

Islam and Muslim societies have never undergone such a transformation, and if anything, they've gotten MORE religious and not less..

So saying Islam can be forced to "give in" is just pure fantasy. Unless the West is willing to use force to control and subvert Islam (and it isn't), I don't see Islam losing it's bite anytime soon. The only reason why they stopped expanding is because Muslim countries are Militarily impotent compared to the much stronger West, and other powerful countries like Russia, China, Israel and India etcetera that are bulwarks.

The only viable non violent solution to this, would be for non Muslim nations to band together and make Islam a pariah of the World and enforce trade sanctions on Muslim nations that support Islamic terrorism.. They must understand that the World will not tolerate this nonsense any longer..

 

[sandorski]

What on Earth does Christianity and Judaism have to do with this conversation?

Why do Islam apologists always try to make false equivalencies between Islam and other religions, when it's not even valid?

Christianity already had it's fangs pulled out, starting with the strong growth and trend towards secularism combined with the Renaissance movement that occurred in the West centuries ago.

Islam and Muslim societies have never undergone such a transformation, and if anything, they've gotten MORE religious and not less..

So saying Islam can be forced to "give in" is just pure fantasy. Unless the West is willing to use force to control and subvert Islam (and it isn't), I don't see Islam losing it's bite anytime soon. The only reason why they stopped expanding is because Muslim countries are Militarily impotent compared to the much stronger West, and other powerful countries like Russia, China, Israel and India etcetera that are bulwarks.

The only viable non violent solution to this, would be for non Muslim nations to band together and make Islam a pariah of the World and enforce trade sanctions on Muslim nations that support Islamic terrorism.. They must understand that the World will not tolerate this nonsense any longer..

It's a valid comparison because all 3 come from the same source. You don't think Sharia was simply the result of Islamic thought did you? It is drawn straight from Hebrew scriptures and the Old Testament. The exact same source that compelled Christians to act in that way and still compels some Christians to tend to those exact same behaviours. Certainly Islam is the main problem now, but it wasn't always. Islam can be reformed, it is the only viable solution, Demonizing them only makes the situation worse.

 

[Hugo Drax]

Look at Saudi Arabia, someone is getting 1000 lashes for blogging.

When France becomes an Islam controlled country like all other islam controlled countries. You can kiss your freedoms away.

Once they become the majority, you will see.

Ask yourself how are minorities treated in Islamic countries?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Look at Saudi Arabia, someone is getting 1000 lashes for blogging.

When France becomes an Islam controlled country like all other islam controlled countries. You can kiss your freedoms away.

Once they become the majority, you will see.

Ask yourself how are minorities treated in Islamic countries?

Israel has several Muslim majority countries as major allies. They don't seem to believe this prophecy you guys keep preaching either

 

[PingviN]

You also have native Europeans that convert to Islam, but I don't think this would be a significant factor. I knew a British woman that converted to Islam though, and she was COMPLETELY different afterwards.

And I mean it in a not so good kind of way..

She probably became completely different before converting. No sane person would convert to Islam unless forced to do so at gunpoint. Maybe the convertion was a result of sever head trauma? She should see a doctor.

 

[Guurn]

Based on the people I know personally about 40% have stopped being active in the Muslim faith since moving here. We are talking about first generation. Most are vehemently anti Islam or Agnostic. By the time we are talking about 3rd gen it will be far higher. Conversions won't make up for it.

I suspect that it is similar to what is happening with the younger generation and the Christian faith except they have more atheists thrown in.

 

[StinkyPinky]

I don't think all of Europe ever will, but there are a few cities where it may happen. Rotterdam in the Netherlands for example.

 

[Abwx]

Look at Saudi Arabia, someone is getting 1000 lashes for blogging.

But then why is the US eagerly supporting this retarded regime while destroying laic regimes like say Iraq, Lybia and now Syria, all countries that are partly under extremists control..??.

 

[Phynaz]

But then why is the US eagerly supporting this retarded regime while destroying laic regimes like say Iraq, Lybia and now Syria, all countries that are partly under extremists control..??.

Dunno, why does France? Couldn't be the oil, could it?

 

[Blue_Max]

Keep your eyes on the French city of Marseilles... It's approaching muslim majority. What happens there will happen everywhere.

Heck, look up how great Marseilles is doing with its "multiculturalism" today.

 

[Carfax83]

It's a valid comparison because all 3 come from the same source. You don't think Sharia was simply the result of Islamic thought did you? It is drawn straight from Hebrew scriptures and the Old Testament. The exact same source that compelled Christians to act in that way and still compels some Christians to tend to those exact same behaviours. Certainly Islam is the main problem now, but it wasn't always. Islam can be reformed, it is the only viable solution, Demonizing them only makes the situation worse.

Again, the similarities in origin are irrelevant to the conversation. You just wanted to slam Christianity, admit it.

Whatever it says in the Old Testament makes no difference, as no nation today incorporates those archaic laws; not even Israel. Militant Christianity died out a long time ago. Militant Islam on the other hand, is alive and well..

As for Sharia, it had it's origins in the cultural similarities between peoples in that part of the World. Stoning prostitutes and adulterers for instance was practiced by several Semitic cultures, including the Jews at one point.

As for reformation, that's the responsibility of Muslims. Non Muslims should not try to force reformation on Muslims, or burden themselves with the task of doing it..

 

[Carfax83]

Israel has several Muslim majority countries as major allies. They don't seem to believe this prophecy you guys keep preaching either

Right, those same countries that tried to destroy them several decades ago but got their asses kicked.

 

[sandorski]

Again, the similarities in origin are irrelevant to the conversation. You just wanted to slam Christianity, admit it.

Whatever it says in the Old Testament makes no difference, as no nation today incorporates those archaic laws; not even Israel. Militant Christianity died out a long time ago. Militant Islam on the other hand, is alive and well..

As for Sharia, it had it's origins in the cultural similarities between peoples in that part of the World. Stoning prostitutes and adulterers for instance was practiced by several Semitic cultures, including the Jews at one point.

As for reformation, that's the responsibility of Muslims. Non Muslims should not try to force reformation on Muslims, or burden themselves with the task of doing it..

...and specifically commanded in the Old Testament. Sorry, you can not honestly divorce these 3 Religions from each other.

 

[Carfax83]

Based on the people I know personally about 40% have stopped being active in the Muslim faith since moving here. We are talking about first generation. Most are vehemently anti Islam or Agnostic. By the time we are talking about 3rd gen it will be far higher. Conversions won't make up for it.

I suspect that it is similar to what is happening with the younger generation and the Christian faith except they have more atheists thrown in.

The problem is, full integration of Muslims in European countries is much more difficult than here in the U.S, because European nations are ethnically and culturally monolithic for the most part.

Can a Muslim immigrant from Afghanistan for instance ever really be considered Danish even after years of living in Denmark, when he's not an ethnic Dane and doesn't adhere to Danish culture?

The U.S is different, since we have no ethnic Americans other than native Americans, and they are a very small percentage of the population. So anyone can be an American and become easily integrated.. Also, American culture is an amalgamation of several cultures, and easily absorbs and adapts to new cultures..

I myself am a first generation American, and I feel right at home here in the U.S. I've never had anyone question my belonging to this country, and I doubt anyone ever will.

But for Habib or Abdullah in Germany, it's a different story. They probably will never feel comfortable singing the Deutschland uber alles..

 

[Carfax83]

...and specifically commanded in the Old Testament. Sorry, you can not honestly divorce these 3 Religions from each other.

I am not divorcing these religions, as I know they are all very similar.

What I am saying, is that no Christian majority nation adheres to archaic biblical laws (other than perhaps gay marriage and even that's going away), so making a comparison in that light is pointless.

If Christian majority nations used the Old Testament for their laws, then maybe you'd have a point..

 

[sandorski]

I am not divorcing these religions, as I know they are all very similar.

What I am saying, is that no Christian majority nation adheres to archaic biblical laws (other than perhaps gay marriage and even that's going away), so making a comparison in that light is pointless.

If Christian majority nations used the Old Testament for their laws, then maybe you'd have a point..

Not anymore, but at one time many did.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Right, those same countries that tried to destroy them several decades ago but got their asses kicked.

Make a list of all the Muslim majority countries, and a list of the countries that went to war with Israel. Cross out the countries that are on both lists. How many countries are left?

 

[Carfax83]

Make a list of all the Muslim majority countries, and a list of the countries that went to war with Israel. Cross out the countries that are on both lists. How many countries are left?

How about I just link to this wiki page which lists all the conflicts Israel has had with it's Arab neighbors:

Israel vs Arab nations.

According to that list, Israel has been attacked directly, or indirectly by practically every Arab nation in the region; and multiple times at that.

All of it's neighbors, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinian territory has waged war on Israel at some point.. And nations like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq etcetera has aided those aggressions by providing arms and troops.

Iran also wages War on Israel via their proxy terrorist group Hezbollah.. So you can downplay Arab/Muslim aggression towards Israel as much as you want, but history tells us all we need to know.

If Israel was a weaker nation, it would have already been Islamized.

 

[Orignal Earl]

How about I just link to this wiki page which lists all the conflicts Israel has had with it's Arab neighbors:

No, then you would completely miss the point. Your reply only helps me to see how you end up wrong

 

[redzo]

My hope and belief is that those naturalized european muslims will change a lot in their ways because of the fact that they'll be living in countries where religion =/= from government.

Living in a society where everyone can practice his/her any religious belief in freedom will definitely have a great impact on the behavior of that individual compared to a society where a certain religious belief is enforced by the government.

My belief is that this will lead to tolerance where there is none or less and the fear of a country turning into non-secular because of a projected majority of people of a more violent non-tolerable religious ideology will fade away...

This what "Islamized Europe" means right? The fear of european countries turning into religious wacky and non-secular because of their islamic centered citizens gaining majority.

 

[Timorous]

No.

In terms of population, Muslims will likely be a majority eventually, in the UK some estimates are in 4 generations or so it will occur based on current projections, either a plurality or majority. However that's only numerically on the continent itself. In the medium run Muslims and Non-Muslims will just live in different neighborhoods in cities, in the long run probably more severe segregation until eventually nation-states with Muslim majorities will just balkanize like Yugoslavia, which may or may not be a peaceful process.

From the 2011 census Muslims make up 4.4% of the population in the UK and you think in 4 generations that will exceed 50%? Just for reference Christians made up 59.5%, non-religious 25.7%, not stated was 7.2% and the rest was 3.2%

According to the BSA survey 2013 those changed to 50.6% for non-religious, 41.7% for Christian, 4.6% for Muslim and the rest was 3.1%.

In 4 more generations it will be a non-religious majority by far.