Will there be a NAU?

[zCypher]

Hello all,

Since there already exists the European Union, African Union and a proposed South-Asian Union - do you think that, given the increasingly integrated economies of Canada, US and Mexico - such a union is inevitable here? If you think such a union is not likely, please explain why. If you think it is already happening, please include reliable sources for your assertions.

Would you accept an RFID card that serves as passport, ATM card and social security card valid in Canada, US and Mexico? Would you view this card and NAU as a threat to national sovereignty?

If the leaders of these three countries already collaborate on North American Free Trade (NAFTA), Security and Prosperity (SPP) and the economies are already tightly woven together - does this not make North America somewhat of an economic and political entity even if there isn't yet an officially stated North American Union? Do you think a unified currency for the North American Union would be a beneficial change, or a detrimental one? Why?

What would happen to each country's respective constitutions? Would they become obsolete in favor of a new constitution or possibly amended?

Although I've read somewhat, I don't have a full understanding of how the Federal Reserve really works. Some sources state that the Federal Reserve is a fully independent institution, others state that it's simply a branch of government - and others state it is partially private, overseen by government. Is this taught in your schools? If so, what do they teach of this? A quick search found Section 10 of the Federal Reserve Act which states the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System (hereinafter referred to as the "Board") shall be composed of seven members, to be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. Does this mean it really is 100% government-run? Would this mean that Rothschild and Friends don't really have any controlling interest? Please help me understand if you know more about this. Their site does show Paul Warburg as Vice Chairman till 1918. Paul Warburg apparently said "We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent." before the US Senate Feb 17, 1950.

Got a little off topic but I think it's relevant, given the huge influence the US has. The Bank of Canada more or less plays the same role as the Federal Reserve, also being a fiat currency.

One thing is certain, we are living in very interesting times!

So the bottom line is - do you think there will be a North American Union, and will it be a good thing?

 

[NoStateofMind]

FYI, RFID is already in your passport. text

NAU is a possibility regardless what some here may say. Lots of news lately of a one world currency as of late so its at least being talked about. Wait and see I guess.

EDIT: Not to mention Vincente Fox on Larry King touched on this very topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVe_sZkvRY8

 

[frostedflakes]

I'm sure it will happen eventually, but I doubt it will be anytime soon. Maybe in two or three decades, though.

 

[Bitek]

Yeah, I'm sure America and Canada and just lining up to allow hordes of poor and uneducated Mexicans flooding across the border. At least more than usual that is.

The US will become a colony of UK (or vice versa ) before we hook up w/ mexico. At least we speak the same language and share the same culture. This conspiracy theory makes as much sense as India and China uniting.

 

[zCypher]

Hi Bitek,

What conspiracy theory? It was even discussed on Lou Dobbs and Larry King (thanks PC Surgeon). NAFTA and SPP are both real, signed by all three countries - there is already a tangible economic integration as well. I don't think, given that information, one can seriously think there's a conspiracy? It's definitely an idea. A possible future outcome. Maybe not, too. I'm open to all possibilities. I'm curious about the topic mainly because of the European Union.

Have a look at the European Union member states. Are you telling me that we have greater differences among one another, or that a union of our three countries would be more cumbersome or complicated than the union of the European member states? I'm not saying that it's a good idea, or even commenting on whether or not the EU was a good idea - simply trying to get a good understanding of what you said. I got the impression that you think it unlikely because of the big differences. Clearly, such a union can exist despite significant cultural differences.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Not until you bow to our Queen.

 

[Bitek]

It is a consp theory as presented and all the fearmongering behind it. One world gov't, loss of sovereignty, national IDs and loss of privacy, all at the driving of powerful individuals.

We are closer to the EU than to Mexico culturally at the end of the day, and have more trade. Why on earth would we ever, ever unionize w/ Mexico? Being close really is irrelevant, ie china/india.

 

[zCypher]

Originally posted by: Bitek
It is a consp theory as presented and all the fearmongering behind it. One world gov't, loss of sovereignty, national IDs and loss of privacy, all at the driving of powerful individuals.

I wasn't presenting fear mongering or conspiracies. Individuals make up the whole, so knowledge is an important tool. Regardless of whether you think there are conspiracies, what I've brought up are valid discussion topics.

Originally posted by: Bitek
We are closer to the EU than to Mexico culturally at the end of the day, and have more trade. Why on earth would we ever, ever unionize w/ Mexico? Being close really is irrelevant, ie china/india.

Like I said, have a look at the EU member states. Do you really think they are all culturally closer together than us? They are many and their differences are many. Why would we unionize with Mexico? I don't know, but they would probably play on currently existing issues somehow presenting the union as a type of solution or movement towards an eventual solution. Like I said - I don't know - I'm curious, which is why I posted this thread.

 

[ranmaniac]

Originally posted by: Bitek
It is a consp theory as presented and all the fearmongering behind it. One world gov't, loss of sovereignty, national IDs and loss of privacy, all at the driving of powerful individuals.

We are closer to the EU than to Mexico culturally at the end of the day, and have more trade. Why on earth would we ever, ever unionize w/ Mexico? Being close really is irrelevant, ie china/india.

We already have RFID in passports, and if you had to submit a thumbscan to get your driver's license, you already have a national ID, as that information is accessible through a centralized database. As far as privacy goes, we don't have any, the NSA has been monitoring emails, faxes, telephone calls etc for a few decades, not to mention warrantless wiretapping etc.

Have you lived in any of the border states? Spanish is pretty much the unofficial second language of California and Texas.

 

[Shortass]

There is definitely a shift towards a NAU though I would imagine Mexico to be excluded for at least a decade until they get their country under control. The EU has some very specific guidelines that applying countries need to meet before acceptance - education levels, gdp, poverty, etc, and at this moment it would be hard to argue that Mexico would pass ANY of them.

NAU is inevitable, though, and I would be surprised if I don't see it in my lifetime. Massive trading blocs are becoming the status quo as increasingly globalized economies look for ways to gain an edge. A global currency may be a ways off but I could very easily see Canada and the US sharing currency and policy within 20 years. It's probably a good thing.

 

[zCypher]

I've read that certain legislation strips Americans of liberties, giving the US unquestionable power to enter your home without a warrant, arrest and detain you indefinitely with no access to a lawyer - if they 'suspect' anything to do with their vague description of domestic terrorism. Is this an accurate description, or are sites that explain this going over the top?

ranmaniac - Have they not created this issue by allowing or even encouraging it to happen? I know that on the Canada-US border they now have droves (unmanned aircraft) patrolling the border. They must have the same on the US-Mexico border?

Shortass - I see your point. I definitely think that a strengthened unified economy will be one of the factors touted as benefit because of the economic downturns, they'll probably claim that it will reduce poverty as well. If they did combine the three economies formally though would this not put each country at the peril of their respective economic weaknesses (assuming one currency for the 3)?

Finally I also wonder if it continues as fiat currency, is this not ensuring eventual collapse?

 

[zCypher]

China calls for global currency
Washington Post
Financial Times

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Not until you bow to our Queen.

:thumbsup:

Seriously though, tighter integration of the Canadian and American economies and security policies is smart policy. Both nations bring something beneficial to the table, and both nations basically have a free flow of goods and people as is. I would have little problem with that occurring.

Because of the large amount of cheap labour that would immediately flood both countries, adding Mexico to the club is probably a very long way away. The situation is akin to Turkey's problematic accession into the European Union.

Originally posted by: Titan
But in an economic sense it is very likely that a north american currency will emerge as a first step. But even that is years away. If anyone gets in on the ground floor with some Ameros lemme in because I wanna get them while they are cheap!

It's far more likely that a common currency will be the last step. It's not even accepted globally in the EU.

 

[Titan]

Last I heard the main focal point of the NAU was the superhighway through mexico and the midwest to canada, supposedly so american trade with china through mexican ports would become easier.

The first leg of the highway in the US was called the trans-texas corridor. Land was being seized with eminent domain, and existing highways were going to be diverted/converted. But I heard that in Texas, it was finally beaten back. The things you don't hear on your national news...

But in an economic sense it is very likely that a north american currency will emerge as a first step. But even that is years away. If anyone gets in on the ground floor with some Ameros lemme in because I wanna get them while they are cheap!

 

[MovingTarget]

Yes, but not with Mexico - too much corruption/crime. Granted, part of it is due to the failed war on drugs, but there is still quite a bit of corruption comparitively in their police forces/gvt officials. Besides, the lack of a common language between the US and Mexico does tend to work against any sort of union between us. If we ever grow up about Cuba and they open up politically (i.e. end one-party rule), then I could see them as the South has wanted relations since prior to the Civil War. (Hell, my hometown- Mobile, AL- is sister city to Havana, Cuba)

I can see the passport thing going through quite easily, but the use as an ATM and/or SS card as well would be mighty Orwellian for a lot of people. We <3 Canada. Quebec may be that odd uncle people see at the family reunions but is avoided in conversation. They shouldn't pose too much of a problem.

 

[zCypher]

Originally posted by: Titan
Last I heard the main focal point of the NAU was the superhighway through mexico and the midwest to canada, supposedly so american trade with china through mexican ports would become easier.

The first leg of the highway in the US was called the trans-texas corridor. Land was being seized with eminent domain, and existing highways were going to be diverted/converted. But I heard that in Texas, it was finally beaten back. The things you don't hear on your national news...

But in an economic sense it is very likely that a north american currency will emerge as a first step. But even that is years away. If anyone gets in on the ground floor with some Ameros lemme in because I wanna get them while they are cheap!

Okay, that's what I didn't know about the trans-texas corridor. I guess things don't always go according to plan, either.

Originally posted by: yllus
Seriously though, tighter integration of the Canadian and American economies and security policies is smart policy. Both nations bring something beneficial to the table, and both nations basically have a free flow of goods and people as is. I would have little problem with that occurring.

Because of the large amount of cheap labour that would immediately flood both countries, adding Mexico to the club is probably a very long way away. The situation is akin to Turkey's problematic accession into the European Union.

It's far more likely that a common currency will be the last step. It's not even accepted globally in the EU.

You have a good point. Since both nations are already tied together, like you say about the flow of goods and people already in place. I guess that China is kind of premature calling for a global currency given all the baby steps that seem to be needed in merging big economies together?

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Yes, but not with Mexico - too much corruption/crime. Granted, part of it is due to the failed war on drugs, but there is still quite a bit of corruption comparitively in their police forces/gvt officials. Besides, the lack of a common language between the US and Mexico does tend to work against any sort of union between us. If we ever grow up about Cuba and they open up politically (i.e. end one-party rule), then I could see them as the South has wanted relations since prior to the Civil War. (Hell, my hometown- Mobile, AL- is sister city to Havana, Cuba)

I can see the passport thing going through quite easily, but the use as an ATM and/or SS card as well would be mighty Orwellian for a lot of people. We <3 Canada. Quebec may be that odd uncle people see at the family reunions but is avoided in conversation. They shouldn't pose too much of a problem.

Aren't there many different languages spoken through the EU though, that didn't stop it from happening. I see what you mean about Orwellian, but isn't it already somewhat like that - just not as unified into one card? Really, the only difference right now is you have one card for debit, one card for credit, etc - but were it all to be combined into one card, this would be seen as more Orwellian. LOL @ your Quebec comment. They're already implementing debit card and driver's license microchips here in Quebec, and in some other provinces. They made it so you could use your driver's license instead of your passport to cross the US-Canada border. This is why I think a card that is all-encompassing could be something they will try to implement in the not so distant future.

 

[zCypher]

Canamex Corridor

 

[ElFenix]

the trans texas corridor is not a boogieman. it was a giant bypass system. it's still needed. the main issue most had with it was that it would be built and then managed by a consortium with a spanish company as one of the two leads. the second biggest issue was that it was to be tolled, but since the state doesn't have the money to build new giant roads, that's only logical (there are a ton of morons here who are against toll roads claiming it's a double tax, well, if the taxes were only enough to build the road half way there, then it sure as hell isn't a double tax, now is it?). the third issue was that, because no route had been finalized for any portion of it, huge amounts of land were considered a potential routes, thus giving the project a lot larger number of people who were automatically against it (because their land might be taken) than a normal highway expansion.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: zCypher
You have a good point. Since both nations are already tied together, like you say about the flow of goods and people already in place. I guess that China is kind of premature calling for a global currency given all the baby steps that seem to be needed in merging big economies together?

Well, consider their perspective: They've got a billion plus mostly impoverished citizens they'd love to hand off to the rest of the world to employ for them. They've also got a teetering national currency that is only doing as well as it's doing because they intentionally devalue it. Hooking into the G7 would be a fantastic deal for them.

Our perspective: We instantly get a billion new people to compete against to get / keep our jobs, and have to extend the strength of our economies to make up for the many pitfalls of theirs. For the rest of us, not so much a good deal.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: zCypher
I've read that certain legislation strips Americans of liberties, giving the US unquestionable power to enter your home without a warrant, arrest and detain you indefinitely with no access to a lawyer - if they 'suspect' anything to do with their vague description of domestic terrorism. Is this an accurate description, or are sites that explain this going over the top?

They are over-the-top.

Fern

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
FYI, RFID is already in your passport. text

NAU is a possibility regardless what some here may say. Lots of news lately of a one world currency as of late so its at least being talked about. Wait and see I guess.

EDIT: Not to mention Vincente Fox on Larry King touched on this very topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVe_sZkvRY8

It's Vicente, not "vincente".

I'm sure you wouldn't like to be referred to as PC Sturgeon, right?

 

[zCypher]

I'm a little confused about the Security and Prosperity Partnership. The SPP website states:

Myth: The SPP was an agreement signed by Presidents Bush and his Mexican and Canadian counterparts in Waco, TX, on March 23, 2005.

Fact: The SPP is a dialogue to increase security and enhance prosperity among the three countries. The SPP is not an agreement nor is it a treaty. In fact, no agreement was ever signed.

There are some Canadian Government websites that state otherwise:

Health Canada
and the broader government-level Security and Prosperity Partnership (SPP), signed in March 2005

Parliament of Canada
The Council of Canadians is Canada's largest public advocacy organization. We have been working on the security and prosperity partnership since before it was signed into effect in Waco in March 2005

Canada Border Services Agency
especially in light of the proposed expansion of PIP under the auspices of the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP) that was signed by Canada, the United States and Mexico in March 2005.

One of the Canadian government websites that used to have it very clearly stated, on a site dedicated to the SPP topic - no longer specifies that it was signed - doesn't deny it either, just says it was "launched" in 2005.

Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America, Government of Canada website
Launched in March 2005, the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP) is an ongoing dialogue that seeks to address common challenges, strengthen security and enhance the quality of life for the citizens of Canada, the United States, and Mexico.

On the other hand, there's a letter written by Connie Fogal of the Canadian Action Party that says:
The SPP was signed by Prime Minister Martin, President Bush and President Fox in March 2005. It was reaffirmed in April of 2006 by Prime Minister Harper. The S.P.P sanctioned the recommendations of the North American Task force released in May of 2005.

So was it signed or not? Does it even matter?

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
FYI, RFID is already in your passport. text

NAU is a possibility regardless what some here may say. Lots of news lately of a one world currency as of late so its at least being talked about. Wait and see I guess.

EDIT: Not to mention Vincente Fox on Larry King touched on this very topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVe_sZkvRY8

It's Vicente, not "vincente".

I'm sure you wouldn't like to be referred to as PC Sturgeon, right?

I've been called worse but thanks for the correction. I honestly didn't notice

 

[MovingTarget]

@zCypher:

It does have a tinge of big brother, but what really bothers me about the card idea is having one card being utilized for both corporate and governmental entities. Unless we had an official 'Bank of the United States' again, I'd rather not combine those functions.

The common language thing was more or less tailored to our cultural experience. The EU nations have been much more accustomed to using and encountering a plethora of languages due to their relative size and proximity. Not so here in the US (for the most part). I'm not saying it is impossible, but the language barrier is much more of an issue in NA than Europe.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Not until you bow to our Queen.

Which will never happen. Never.

And personally, I find the idea of bowing to any other human being in that fashion distasteful, even when you're the one doing the bowing.