Will PC Gaming Live On???

Pez D Spencer

Banned
Nov 22, 2005
401
0
0
With the piracy of PC games as rampant as it is today, I often wonder if PC gaming will even surrvive. I know this topic has probably been debated here and elsewhere already, but I just wanted to give my take on the whole situation and hear what you people have to say about it.

Let's face it, compared to pirated console games, pirated PC games are much easier to get running. To run a pirated console game you must first have a modded console, physically burn a CD or DVD and hope it works. With PC games it's as easy as firing up Bit Torrent, downloading a cracked version of the latest game and away you go.

I've read various places that the main reason so many PC games are becoming nothing more than ports of console games is that there is little to no profit for a game developer to target just the PC market. The reason there is no profit is because most PC gamers pirate all thier games instead of buying them. Some experts estimate that there are more pirated games on computers than there are legitimate ones.

Now, instead of boring you guys with things you probably already know, I'll get to the point of why I decided to start this thread. The reason I started this thread is because like many of you, I'm worried about the future of PC gaming. I haven't played a console game in nearly 5 years and honestly, as long as there's decent PC games to play, I don't see that changing. I think that consoles are, and always will be inferior to PC's.

So I started thinking about how much it'll truly suck if PC gaming goes down the toilet and fades away. But then another thought struck me. If PC gaming dies, then what about ATI and nVidia? Their empires will surely crumble along with it. I also assume that Intel and AMD would both feel some degree of the sting as well because let's face it, you don't need a 3.6GHz Quad to run Windows.

If you think about it, it would seem like out of the game developers, GPU makers, and CPU makers, the GPU makers would have the most to lose if PC gaming dies. Without PC games, there's little to no reason for ATI or nVidia to develop and produce new products. The game makers have consoles to fall back on and while the CPU makers might lose a chunk of their enthusiast market, every computer (gaming rig or not) still needs a CPU in it.

There has to be a way to eliminate or at least minimize PC game piracy folks. I think if something isn't done soon, then PC gaming is going to end up being something we read about in the history books instead of talking about in these forums. Lot's of people complained about Steam when it was first implemented and I suppose to a degree, some people still oppose it. And while Steam might prevent online gaming, it has done nothing to prevent offline play. From what I can tell, Steam is pretty darn effective at preventing pirated copies from playing online. I think that in order for PC gaming to surrvive, there has to be a Steam-like system in place for ALL games that authenticates your game each and every time you play it whether its single or multiplayer. This might be somewhat of a hassle for some people, but how many PC gamers do you know that don't have an Internet connection? If it takes that for PC gaming to live on then I'm all for it. Anyone that opposes it might as well head on down to Best Buy and pick up and Xbox or PS3 because I don't see any other way.

Here's one idea I came up with. Now don't get me wrong, I know very little about encryption, authentication, or anything like that. But logically it seems like this would work. This idea could easily apply to any game or game developer, but for this example I'll use Valve and Half-Life 3.

Ok, let's say Valve puts out HL3. The easiest way I see to make this work is with direct2drive type games, but I suppose with a little extra thought it could just as easily work with retail box games. It all involves the use of a security key to play the games. Here's how it would work:

Valve releases HL3 and allows customers to buy and download the game through Steam. After purchasing the game and before downloading it the customer is asked a series of security questions. The answers the customer provides to these security questions is what is used to encrypt that individual copy of the game. The game is encrpyted with the answers and the customer downloads the game.

Next, the decrytpion key is emailed to the customer. Without this key file the game cannot be installed or ran. Once placed on the user's computer a hardware profile much like Windows utilizes is used to profile that particular machine. This would prevent the key from being used on multiple machines. After being placed on the machine, the user is asked once again for the answers to his unique security questions for verification. Upon giving the correct answers the game is installed, and as long as that particular key is present on that particular machine the game will run normally. A reinstall of the game would require answering the security questions again, but after installation, the use of the security key and decryption would be transparent to the user.

In the event that the customer wants to move the game to another computer, they would simply return to the Valve website, login, correctly answer the security questions and a "fresh" key would be emailed to them. But what if you have 2 or 3 computers you want to install the game on? For a nominal fee, say 5 bucks per computer, you can purchase additonal keys that will allow you to install on additonal machines.

I don't see why something like this isn't possible. Is it a hassle? Yes. Would it be worth it to save PC gaming? ABSOLUTELY.

Just my $0.02
 

myocardia

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2003
9,291
30
91
Originally posted by: Pez D Spencer
Next, the decrytpion key is emailed to the customer. Without this key file the game cannot be installed or ran. Once placed on the user's computer a hardware profile much like Windows utilizes is used to profile that particular machine. This would prevent the key from being used on multiple machines. After being placed on the machine, the user is asked once again for the answers to his unique security questions for verification. Upon giving the correct answers the game is installed, and as long as that particular key is present on that particular machine the game will run normally. A reinstall of the game would require answering the security questions again, but after installation, the use of the security key and decryption would be transparent to the user.

Are you younguns actually stealing that many games? I guess this is why Sony came up with that POS that only lets you install Bioshock on two PC's, ever, including if it's the same PC both times.

Here's why your idea wouldn't work. All you'd need to do is copy the entire folder that the game resides in, then copy the file(s) that's required to use it, wherever they happen to be located. I'm personally guessing that all of the Torrents will be outlawed soon, which would be fine by me, since they exist only to make stealing possible.
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,559
0
0
Originally posted by: myocardia
Originally posted by: Pez D Spencer
Next, the decrytpion key is emailed to the customer. Without this key file the game cannot be installed or ran. Once placed on the user's computer a hardware profile much like Windows utilizes is used to profile that particular machine. This would prevent the key from being used on multiple machines. After being placed on the machine, the user is asked once again for the answers to his unique security questions for verification. Upon giving the correct answers the game is installed, and as long as that particular key is present on that particular machine the game will run normally. A reinstall of the game would require answering the security questions again, but after installation, the use of the security key and decryption would be transparent to the user.

Are you younguns actually stealing that many games? I guess this is why Sony came up with that POS that only lets you install Bioshock on two PC's, ever, including if it's the same PC both times.

Here's why your idea wouldn't work. All you'd need to do is copy the entire folder that the game resides in, then copy the file(s) that's required to use it, wherever they happen to be located. I'm personally guessing that all of the Torrents will be outlawed soon, which would be fine by me, since they exist only to make stealing possible.

Is that true about Bioshock? I was planning to buy it, but hell, those restrictions are so draconian I may pirate it just to screw Sony over.

And torrents have plenty of legitimate and mainstream uses.
 

myocardia

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2003
9,291
30
91
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Is that true about Bioshock? I was planning to buy it, but hell, those restrictions are so draconian I may pirate it just to screw Sony over.

Yep, check out the forums on the Bioshock homepage.

And torrents have plenty of legitimate and mainstream uses.

Name one, besides downloads of Linux.
 

Pez D Spencer

Banned
Nov 22, 2005
401
0
0
Originally posted by: myocardia
Are you younguns actually stealing that many games? I guess this is why Sony came up with that POS that only lets you install Bioshock on two PC's, ever, including if it's the same PC both times.

Which didn't work BTW:

Link removed
-Schadenfroh



Originally posted by: myocardia

Here's why your idea wouldn't work. All you'd need to do is copy the entire folder that the game resides in, then copy the file(s) that's required to use it, wherever they happen to be located. I'm personally guessing that all of the Torrents will be outlawed soon, which would be fine by me, since they exist only to make stealing possible.

If you did that then the hardware profile wouldn't match anymore and the game wouldn't work. Besides if there was any doubt, then the game could always just ask for the answers to the security questions again. But regardless, the point I was trying to make isn't whether or not my idea would work, I was just trying to illustrate that there has to be something put in place that works better than whats out there now.

With all due respect, torrents or any other P2P being made illegal is a pipe dream. Even if Bit Torrent was taken down there's a hundred more to take it's place. Hoping that the problem will be solved by P2P disappearing is like hoping it'll rain when your house is burning down. It's very unlikely that it'll rain and if it does it'll probably be too late and your house will be gone. IMO, somebody needs to get out a hose and take care of the problem.


 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,559
0
0
Originally posted by: myocardia
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Is that true about Bioshock? I was planning to buy it, but hell, those restrictions are so draconian I may pirate it just to screw Sony over.

Yep, check out the forums on the Bioshock homepage.

And torrents have plenty of legitimate and mainstream uses.

Name one, besides downloads of Linux.

What are you talking about? Game companies regularly use torrents to distribute patches and other downloadable content without having to pony up the bandwidth to host the files. Hell, just yesterday I DLed Anarchy Online (free MMO) via bittorrent.
 

Pez D Spencer

Banned
Nov 22, 2005
401
0
0
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

What are you talking about? Game companies regularly use torrents to distribute patches and other downloadable content without having to pony up the bandwidth to host the files. Hell, just yesterday I DLed Anarchy Online (free MMO) via bittorrent.


99.9% of the files on any P2P are pirated. We all know that.

I've been using P2P nonstop since the days of the first Napster and I can tell you that I don't think I've EVER downloaded anything that wasn't pirated. I started this thread because I genuinely think that unless somebody does something soon, PC gaming will be gone. I've done my share to help towards it's demise too. The thing is that it's just too easy. I'm not a rich dude and I don't have 50 bucks to pay for games even if it is the right thing to do. However, there's a part of me that wishes someone somewhere would do something to make it harder. The easy answer is that if you can't afford it then you don't have the right to play it which I agree with, but when it's so damn easy it's hard to say no.

Back in the day when it was just eMule and Kazaa hardly anyone was doing it (at least that's the way it seemed) and it didn't seem like SUCH a terrible thing to do. But now that Bit Torrent is so freaking huge it seems like everybody and their grandmother are downlading something.

I don't advocate piracy but at the same time I'm not one of these people that is going to sit there and act like P2P is totally innocent because we all know that it isn't.

 

myocardia

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2003
9,291
30
91
Originally posted by: Pez D Spencer
Originally posted by: myocardia
Are you younguns actually stealing that many games? I guess this is why Sony came up with that POS that only lets you install Bioshock on two PC's, ever, including if it's the same PC both times.

Which didn't work BTW:

Link Removed
-Schadenfroh

Why am I not surprised that that's already available for download?:D

Originally posted by: myocardia

Here's why your idea wouldn't work. All you'd need to do is copy the entire folder that the game resides in, then copy the file(s) that's required to use it, wherever they happen to be located. I'm personally guessing that all of the Torrents will be outlawed soon, which would be fine by me, since they exist only to make stealing possible.

If you did that then the hardware profile wouldn't match anymore and the game wouldn't work. Besides if there was any doubt, then the game could always just ask for the answers to the security questions again. But regardless, the point I was trying to make isn't whether or not my idea would work, I was just trying to illustrate that there has to be something put in place that works better than whats out there now.


Are you saying that it would disallow using Torrents? If so, I pretty much agree, except for the fact that someone will come up with a workaround, somehow. But since you never (unless I just missed it) mentioned "by download only", I was thinking of little Johnny coming over to my house, CD in hand, to install it on my son/daughter's computer. Since he would know the answers to every question, it would hardly be a deterrent for that.

With all due respect, torrents or any other P2P being made illegal is a pipe dream. Even if Bit Torrent was taken down there's a hundred more to take it's place. Hoping that the problem will be solved by P2P disappearing is like hoping it'll rain when your house is burning down. It's very unlikely that it'll rain and if it does it'll probably be too late and your house will be gone. IMO, somebody needs to get out a hose and take care of the problem.

With all due respect, any government can outlaw anything that they so desire, and there has been talk recently of outlawing torrents, nothing to do with any one version, like Bit Torrent.

I wasn't tryin' to start a shitstorm.

Neither was I, I was just trying to give you a bump (since I think it would be a good thing for every teenager in America to read your "speech"), while providing the other side of the argument, or be the devil's advocate.
 

Pez D Spencer

Banned
Nov 22, 2005
401
0
0
Originally posted by: myocardia

With all due respect, any government can outlaw anything that they so desire, and there has been talk recently of outlawing torrents, nothing to do with any one version, like Bit Torrent.

Yeah, but even if torrents or any other P2P is banned in one country then it'll just set up shop in another. Unless the whole concept of P2P is banned worldwide then I don't see P2P going anywhere anytime soon. Hell, The Pirate Bay was talking about buying their own island so they can avoid any kind of Government control.

http://www.thelocal.se/6076/20070112/
 

myocardia

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2003
9,291
30
91
Originally posted by: Pez D Spencer
Originally posted by: myocardia

With all due respect, any government can outlaw anything that they so desire, and there has been talk recently of outlawing torrents, nothing to do with any one version, like Bit Torrent.

Yeah, but even if torrents or any other P2P is banned in one country then it'll just set up shop in another. Unless the whole concept of P2P is banned worldwide then I don't see P2P going anywhere anytime soon. Hell, The Pirate Bay was talking about buying their own island so they can avoid any kind of Government control.

http://www.thelocal.se/6076/20070112/

Sadly enough, that's very true. I had just forgotten that tidbit about Pirate Bay, which any website could do, anytime they wanted.
 

Pez D Spencer

Banned
Nov 22, 2005
401
0
0
One final interesting fact to think about. I added up all the users either downloading or seeding Bioshock in the top ten search results on Torrentz.com and came up with approximately 140,000 users which is theoretically 140,000 copies of the game that won't be sold. Last I saw, Bioshock was going for 50 bucks at Gamestop. Do the math and you'll see that there's $7,000,000 (that's seven million dollars folks) of revenue being lost right there.
 

myocardia

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2003
9,291
30
91
I guess that means that PC gaming is dead, then. Not that it really surprises me. It seems that whenever someone grows up having everything handed to them, they almost never outgrow that. BTW, don't you have to pay a monthly fee to Steam? If so, how much is it?
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
Originally posted by: myocardia
I guess that means that PC gaming is dead, then. Not that it really surprises me. It seems that whenever someone grows up having everything handed to them, they almost never outgrow that. BTW, don't you have to pay a monthly fee to Steam? If so, how much is it?

steam is free
 

Skacer

Banned
Jun 4, 2007
727
0
0
It is a logical flaw to believe everyone stealing would buy it if we simply eliminated the means for stealing.

Let?s say we?ve got a guy who downloads games simply because he can?t afford them. Now let?s say we actually eliminate warez altogether. Now this guy is going to go through a process: want game, can?t afford it, want game, can?t afford it, want game, can?t afford it. Eventually, he will find something else to fill that space: sports, television, stamp collection, who knows. The point is with his only access into the scene removed, his exposure has been eliminated and, over time, you have a lack of interest. Why would we even want this guy though if he doesn?t pay for anything? Well, more likely than not he usually gets suckered into a purchase or two, something online he can?t play for free that he manages to scrounge up enough money for. Also, his interest in a game could cause him to drag friends into it who might have more money. But even more so, because eventually this individual should come across money as they enter the work force. And eventually the scale will tip from lots of time, no money to lots of money, no time. This individual is not going to want to waste time scavenging virus filled websites for a free game, they are just going to drop the coin and get the game they want to play. So because you?ve strung that individual along until they have money, you now reap the benefits of a paying customer. Where as, by eliminating them, you gained nothing.

This time, I won?t go so extreme. But let?s shape an example that more closely follows what occurred in music after the RIAA started eliminating sharing. Frank has money, but not a lot. He justifies spending just enough to keep up with his favorite franchise, Halo, but doesn?t spend anymore on the hobby. Without warez, he stays there and never goes beyond Halo. Now let?s add warez to the scenario and say Frank gets hooked to ET:QW. Now he has gone outside his casual real life friends circle and he is making online friends. He might even join a clan and move from ET:QW to WoW or another subscription based game. And now that he has become part of the community instead of an outsider playing with real life friends casually, he is justifying more purchases than he did previously. The change, in this scenario, was a social one instead of a monetary one.

Still want to eliminate warez? I think the best way would be with a service that never gives you the entire game. Say, you download 95%, all of the graphics mainly but none of the actual game executables. Then, when you go to play it, an online service delivers you that last piece directly to memory while verifying your key code. The only issue would be insuring that someone couldn?t somehow salvage those files by forcing a memory dump. I?m not sure how that would be done, someone much smarter than me would have to figure it out. I?ve personally never found memory dumps all that readable.

The biggest problem with games right now is the anti-warez software that is absolutely destroying computers. This stuff is practically criminal in nature.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Sigh, your "solution" only makes things WORSE for PC gaming. Why the hell would someone want to jump through a million hoops just to get to play their damn game? If it's that bad, sorry... I'll just buy them for my 360 or PS3. Also, direct download games are already bad enough that they cost the same as the physical game and you get nothing other than the game itself.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
so by your logic, Blockbuster and other rental stores should be killing consoles right? why buy a game when you can rent it?

pc gaming has been dying for several years, or so they keep saying, yet its still alive.

i think a lot of the games are being dumbed down due to console ports but there's still plenty of games being made (although a lot of them tend to suck lately).

 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
The Xbox 360 version of Bioshock was being pirated almost a week before it was released. The PC version wasn't cracked till 10 days after it came out. The torrent search sites show a much higher number of downloads for the 360 version.

Xbox pirating is easier than PC pirating. Every 360 game uses the same protection method. There are far more copy protection methods used for the PC, and they are constantly being changed and upgraded.

Console piracy is even easier for the average user: Buy a modded console, buy pirated games.

DRM and copy protection schemes aren't necessary and probably do more harm than good. Most of them get cracked before the games even released. So they really don't slow down pirates at all. On the other hand they definitely cause problems for the consumers who purchased the game. Go to the Bioshock forums and the most read, and posted to thread is about copy protection problems that keep the game from working.

Galactic Civilizations 2 had no DRM or copy protection, and it sold much better than expected. Not having a copy protection scheme actually kept it from being pirated the first week it was out. Most cracked games are released by cracking groups who try to be the first to crack a game. There was nothing to crack with Galactic Civilizations 2 so none of the cracking groups put it on the internet. Without them, it took over a week before someone else finally put it on the internet to be pirated.

Both the DS and PSP have been cracked and it's easy to do. Have you seen how many games the DS sells? Does it look like piracy is really hurting it much?
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,758
603
126
PC Gaming isn't going to die...and I for one have forgone titles I intended on buying because I didn't feel like fighting with the DRM scheme they introduced. I don't have much free time any more, so I really don't want to spend it battling with an installer or complaining to customer service on the phone. I've got plenty of money to buy bioshock...but I'm tired of being pissed on.

I think there's a reason we've seen a lot of moves towards online games though. WoW for instance...how do you pirate that? You really can't. MMORPGs are expensive as hell to develop but they're pretty immune to piracy. I don't hear much about pirated steam games. I'm sure you can play HL2 single player with a cracked version...but can you play counter strike: source for more then a couple days or something? (I'm actually asking that...I don't know...it doesn't seem like there would be an easy way to defeat steam, at least for more then a short period of time.)
 

Golgatha

Lifer
Jul 18, 2003
12,405
1,080
126
Originally posted by: myocardia
Originally posted by: Pez D Spencer
Next, the decrytpion key is emailed to the customer. Without this key file the game cannot be installed or ran. Once placed on the user's computer a hardware profile much like Windows utilizes is used to profile that particular machine. This would prevent the key from being used on multiple machines. After being placed on the machine, the user is asked once again for the answers to his unique security questions for verification. Upon giving the correct answers the game is installed, and as long as that particular key is present on that particular machine the game will run normally. A reinstall of the game would require answering the security questions again, but after installation, the use of the security key and decryption would be transparent to the user.

Are you younguns actually stealing that many games? I guess this is why Sony came up with that POS that only lets you install Bioshock on two PC's, ever, including if it's the same PC both times.

Here's why your idea wouldn't work. All you'd need to do is copy the entire folder that the game resides in, then copy the file(s) that's required to use it, wherever they happen to be located. I'm personally guessing that all of the Torrents will be outlawed soon, which would be fine by me, since they exist only to make stealing possible.

Which is why most Linux distributions and an insignificant game like World of Warcraft use it almost exclusively to distribute their "warez". :roll:
 

Golgatha

Lifer
Jul 18, 2003
12,405
1,080
126
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: myocardia
Originally posted by: Pez D Spencer
Next, the decrytpion key is emailed to the customer. Without this key file the game cannot be installed or ran. Once placed on the user's computer a hardware profile much like Windows utilizes is used to profile that particular machine. This would prevent the key from being used on multiple machines. After being placed on the machine, the user is asked once again for the answers to his unique security questions for verification. Upon giving the correct answers the game is installed, and as long as that particular key is present on that particular machine the game will run normally. A reinstall of the game would require answering the security questions again, but after installation, the use of the security key and decryption would be transparent to the user.

Are you younguns actually stealing that many games? I guess this is why Sony came up with that POS that only lets you install Bioshock on two PC's, ever, including if it's the same PC both times.

Here's why your idea wouldn't work. All you'd need to do is copy the entire folder that the game resides in, then copy the file(s) that's required to use it, wherever they happen to be located. I'm personally guessing that all of the Torrents will be outlawed soon, which would be fine by me, since they exist only to make stealing possible.

Is that true about Bioshock? I was planning to buy it, but hell, those restrictions are so draconian I may pirate it just to screw Sony over.

And torrents have plenty of legitimate and mainstream uses.

They've upped it to five installs and there is a tool to deactivate your install to regain one of the five installs now. Next piece of FUD please.

Edit: The SecurROM BS with it installing watchdog files on my OS is certainly not welcome though.
 

Golgatha

Lifer
Jul 18, 2003
12,405
1,080
126
Originally posted by: Pez D Spencer
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

What are you talking about? Game companies regularly use torrents to distribute patches and other downloadable content without having to pony up the bandwidth to host the files. Hell, just yesterday I DLed Anarchy Online (free MMO) via bittorrent.


99.9% of the files on any P2P are pirated. We all know that.

I've been using P2P nonstop since the days of the first Napster and I can tell you that I don't think I've EVER downloaded anything that wasn't pirated. I started this thread because I genuinely think that unless somebody does something soon, PC gaming will be gone. I've done my share to help towards it's demise too. The thing is that it's just too easy. I'm not a rich dude and I don't have 50 bucks to pay for games even if it is the right thing to do. However, there's a part of me that wishes someone somewhere would do something to make it harder. The easy answer is that if you can't afford it then you don't have the right to play it which I agree with, but when it's so damn easy it's hard to say no.

Back in the day when it was just eMule and Kazaa hardly anyone was doing it (at least that's the way it seemed) and it didn't seem like SUCH a terrible thing to do. But now that Bit Torrent is so freaking huge it seems like everybody and their grandmother are downlading something.

I don't advocate piracy but at the same time I'm not one of these people that is going to sit there and act like P2P is totally innocent because we all know that it isn't.

You said it. You're not a lost sale of the game, you're simply stealing so you can play more games. Your piracy has no economic impact on the success of a game.
 

Golgatha

Lifer
Jul 18, 2003
12,405
1,080
126

With all due respect, any government can outlaw anything that they so desire, and there has been talk recently of outlawing torrents, nothing to do with any one version, like Bit Torrent.

Worked so well with prohibition of alcohol didn't it?