Will November be the death knell for big labor unions?

[theeedude]

The economic hardship the Republicans will continue bringing to this country will make labor unions more needed in the long run.

 

[her209]

So you find it odd that secured investors would not complain about Bush making loans to help secure their investment, yet would complain about Obama ripping that investment to shreds outside the law? Really?

I find it odd that nobody was willing to lend GM and Chrysler any money thus tanking their stocks until the government ala Bush stepped in to give them low interest "loans" to be paid if the company became profitable somehow. These same senior secured investors had no issues with this government intervention.

 

[trenchfoot]

I would like you to reconcile this with what has happened in the auto-industry, and explain how a union ended up owning over 60% of a company.

(That's rhetorical - you can't explain it while maintaining your statement above).

Had GM and Chrysler disappeared, the UAW would have disappeared in large part. They survived mainly through the largess of the government. While the union was not solely at fault for the financial plight of the Big 3, they were receiving inordinate amounts of compensation - hourly unskilled workers getting payed $25+ an hour non including their benefits (don't bother arguing with me: I do pay at a Big 3 plant).

You need to open your eyes. The unions paid nearly half a billion dollars to get their guys elected. Those guys returned the favor 100 fold.

Fair enough. Now how do you go about using this exceptional example during exceptional times as a typical example of how Unions have operated and survived over the long haul, which was the jist of my post? You can't. The example you've provided is atypical.

And as far as your opinion that hourly unskilled workers were being overpaid, you must blame Management for that because they AGREED to that pay scale.

All the union did was ask for it in negotiations, and probably got it in exchange for some other concession that you don't know about simply because you weren't there at the bargaining table when that transaction occurred.

You need to be more involved with Unions and how they negotiate before you decide who is actually responsible for the way things are at your place of employment.

As I mentioned, Management calls the shots.

I am not privy to what you mentioned about employees owning 60% share in the Company they work for. However, you seem to be blaming the Unions for it happening. Can you provide links to this, as I'd sure like to know more about it.

As to your statement about the Union surviving mainly at the largess of government, if I recall correctly, The Auto Companies themselves survived mainly on government largess in the form of bailouts during the crisis at the tailend of Bush's tenure. The survival of the Unions was a result of the survival of the Companies themselves taking loans and handouts from the Feds.

IMHO, In the eyes of the government, they were not helping the Unions to survive, they were helping American workers and their families to survive.

 

[nyker96]

How much has American Crossroads raised/spent this election cycle versus some of the labor unions?

(Hint - almost nothing)

I think about $50 million, but they just starting out 507s I believe no need to report sources of donation. Republicans are doing well, organizations like AC is poping up everywhere, I believe they estimate this election cycle Republicans will spent about 20% more than the combined donations from Dem side. Not too surprising since most business is donating to the Rep since they are betting on them winning.

But things could change, if the large business sense a shift of momentum in another election cycle, the Dems could get more money then.

 

[Pulsar]

Fair enough. Now how do you go about using this exceptional example during exceptional times as a typical example of how Unions have operated and survived over the long haul, which was the jist of my post? You can't. The example you've provided is atypical.

And as far as your opinion that hourly unskilled workers were being overpaid, you must blame Management for that because they AGREED to that pay scale.

All the union did was ask for it in negotiations, and probably got it in exchange for some other concession that you don't know about simply because you weren't there at the bargaining table when that transaction occurred.

You need to be more involved with Unions and how they negotiate before you decide who is actually responsible for the way things are at your place of employment.

As I mentioned, Management calls the shots.

I am not privy to what you mentioned about employees owning 60% share in the Company they work for. However, you seem to be blaming the Unions for it happening. Can you provide links to this, as I'd sure like to know more about it.

As to your statement about the Union surviving mainly at the largess of government, if I recall correctly, The Auto Companies themselves survived mainly on government largess in the form of bailouts during the crisis at the tailend of Bush's tenure. The survival of the Unions was a result of the survival of the Companies themselves taking loans and handouts from the Feds.

IMHO, In the eyes of the government, they were not helping the Unions to survive, they were helping American workers and their families to survive.

This is a very common fallacy. Are you old enough to remember the strikes?

This is a simple equation. The union continued to demand more money. The management weighed their options and, at the time, decided that it was far better to pay what they could and just barely make a profit. This was in times of prosperity. Strikes are absolutely devastating to the companies involved.

Then the markets turned down. In a market down turn, you almost NEVER see union workers making concessions. For instance - in the private sector millions of white collar Americans have taken significant paycuts or lost their jobs. As a comparison, the salaries of Government union workers have increased. Many union workers lost their jobs, but in my business you saw almost no serious concessions. The companies were losing billions and the unions were complaining about losing their cost of living increases and only getting 2-3% raises each year, while their white collar counterparts actually saw pay decreases!

The unions made these concessions only once the companies were bankrupt. Indeed, you'll notice that in the last couple years, much of the union leadership is gone. That's because most of their workers could really give a shit about the company, and voted them out for their actions.

Unions are necessary. However, they are no different than their corporate counterparts - they are about getting the most money possible. Human greed rules in both cases.

Side Note: Ford was very lucky. They were able to persuade the union to give them the same concessions that Chrysler and GM received during their bankruptcies.