Will linux ever be compatible with all windows apps

[envy me]

The only way linux can take over windows is if it can support all application that can run on windows (without using wine or other programs like it)

What about a direct/x linux alternative, does one exist? How hard would it be for this to happen. I am ready to switch back to linux (again) but this is the only thing stopping me. I mean, how hard can it possibly be?

Can't someone just disassemble windows and implement all of m$ shotty code into linux and combine the two somehow?

 

[stash]

Hmm..reversed engineered Windows code packaged into a Linux distro. Assuming someone had the means and the desire to do something like that, I give it about .0000000000000000000000001 seconds before it gets swamped with ceast and desist orders.

 

[Bluestealth]

Originally posted by: stash
Hmm..reversed engineered Windows code packaged into a Linux distro. Assuming someone had the means and the desire to do something like that, I give it about .0000000000000000000000001 seconds before it gets swamped with ceast and desist orders.

Quiet microsoft troll, greater shell integration with wine would be the only thing that would change, Microsoft Binaries will never go into the Linux kernel... its a compatibility layer between Win32/DirectX and X/*nix.

 

[stash]

Right, I'm a troll. I've stated many times on this forum that I could care less what OS people want to run. I've got better things to do with my time than get involved with religious wars of any kind, espeically OS wars.

What I do take offense to is people bashing Microsoft just because it's what all the kewl kids are doing. There are many many things that people can legitimately rip Microsoft for. Stick to making an argument based on facts, rather than spouting off about shotty [sic] code.

/rant

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: stash
Hmm..reversed engineered Windows code packaged into a Linux distro. Assuming someone had the means and the desire to do something like that, I give it about .0000000000000000000000001 seconds before it gets swamped with ceast and desist orders.

You don't pay much attention to the open source software world do you?

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: envy me
The only way linux can take over windows is if it can support all application that can run on windows (without using wine or other programs like it)

That's a rather brash and silly statement

 

[stash]

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: stash
Hmm..reversed engineered Windows code packaged into a Linux distro. Assuming someone had the means and the desire to do something like that, I give it about .0000000000000000000000001 seconds before it gets swamped with ceast and desist orders.

You don't pay much attention to the open source software world do you?

Nope

 

[Bluestealth]

Originally posted by: stash

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: stash
Hmm..reversed engineered Windows code packaged into a Linux distro. Assuming someone had the means and the desire to do something like that, I give it about .0000000000000000000000001 seconds before it gets swamped with ceast and desist orders.

You don't pay much attention to the open source software world do you?

Nope

I feel like an ass, sorry stash, read first part of his post then yours, then posted after a .net application crashed my computer... lol, Beyond TV 4.2.... come on ATI linux t550pro drivers.... *cracks whip

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: stash

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: stash
Hmm..reversed engineered Windows code packaged into a Linux distro. Assuming someone had the means and the desire to do something like that, I give it about .0000000000000000000000001 seconds before it gets swamped with ceast and desist orders.

You don't pay much attention to the open source software world do you?

Nope

I'd suggest you google "wine" and get in touch with your legal department

 

[Bluestealth]

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: stash

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: stash
Hmm..reversed engineered Windows code packaged into a Linux distro. Assuming someone had the means and the desire to do something like that, I give it about .0000000000000000000000001 seconds before it gets swamped with ceast and desist orders.

You don't pay much attention to the open source software world do you?

Nope

I'd suggest you google "wine" and get in touch with your legal department

IMHO there is nothing wrong with using a application compatiblity layer between 2 incompatible APIs nor using your legally licensed Windows Binaries so long as they arn't bundled with the program.

 

[kamper]

Hmm, maybe I misunderstood stash's original post. I didn't see that he meant actually taking microsoft binaries and distributing them with a distro. I thought he meant it was going to be a problem merely to provide binary compatibility (since that compatibility largely has to be reverse engineered).

But I bet there would still be issues if wine took particular windows binaries and used them, even if users had to move them from windows machines themselves. Wine doesn't do that do they?

 

[Bluestealth]

Good point , I want to see what he thinks.

 

[stash]

Hmm, maybe I misunderstood stash's original post. I didn't see that he meant actually taking microsoft binaries and distributing them with a distro. I thought he meant it was going to be a problem merely to provide binary compatibility (since that compatibility largely has to be reverse engineered).

Hmm lots of misunderstandings in this post I (mis)understood the OP to be asking for actual code, which then could be implemented in Linux. Which was a bad assumption on my part, since that wouldn't require 'disassembly'. I was blinded by the shotty code thing I guess

But he didn't really ask for a compatibility layer either. He specifically said no WINE.

I was always under the impression that reverse engineering of Windows of any kind was prohibited:

4. LIMITATIONS ON REVERSE ENGINEERING, DECOMPILATION, AND DISASSEMBLY. You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Software, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.

Since I am not a lawyer though, I am admitedly unclear about what activities are expressly permitted by applicable law.

And bluestealth, no worries

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: stash
He specifically said no WINE.

Missed that one too

Hmm, this is a pickle. Linux has to support windows applications without providing a replacement for the windows libraries and without bringing windows libraries over. It makes so little sense I can't even come up with a wisecrack to make fun of it.

 

[drag]

But I bet there would still be issues if wine took particular windows binaries and used them, even if users had to move them from windows machines themselves. Wine doesn't do that do they?

No. Wine only uses free software although it does allow end-users to use windows dlls and such if they want.. but it's not supported and it's not ment to 'fill gaps' in wine's win32 support.

If you realy want 100% binary compatability with Windows in Linux the best way is to use the next generation Intel and AMD proccessors and run Linux and Windows XP Pro (not home) or Windows 2000 Pro in a Xen virtualized enviroment.

That way you can run Linux and when you need Windows compatability for this or that application you can start up Windows and access it through remote desktop and transfer files though samba or NTFS-FUSE.

With Linux's multiple desktop support you can do something like have 3 Linux desktops and 1 windows desktop if you feel like it. Since it happens over virtual networks in RAM and Xen provides near bare-hardware speed it will be very fast. The only downside is that it won't work with games since you won't get hardware acceleration from the Windows box.

It will provide you 100% application compatability though.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: stash
What I do take offense to is people bashing Microsoft just because it's what all the kewl kids are doing. There are many many things that people can legitimately rip Microsoft for. Stick to making an argument based on facts, rather than spouting off about shotty [sic] code.

/rant

Actually I think MS bashing is kinda "out"...
It's one of those "in-between" periods IMO, where it's not quite cool to bash anything, but it'll probably be cool to bash OS X soon, after that I'd say it's Microsoft's turn again

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: stash
Since I am not a lawyer though, I am admitedly unclear about what activities are expressly permitted by applicable law.

This is why god gave us Russia and China.

I'm not sure how much reverse engineering you could ban, and I guess it depends on your definition of reverse engineering...

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: stash
What I do take offense to is people bashing Microsoft just because it's what all the kewl kids are doing. There are many many things that people can legitimately rip Microsoft for. Stick to making an argument based on facts, rather than spouting off about shotty [sic] code.

/rant

Actually I think MS bashing is kinda "out"...
It's one of those "in-between" periods IMO, where it's not quite cool to bash anything, but it'll probably be cool to bash OS X soon, after that I'd say it's Microsoft's turn again

It's always cool to bash OS X. And Linux.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: drag

But I bet there would still be issues if wine took particular windows binaries and used them, even if users had to move them from windows machines themselves. Wine doesn't do that do they?

No. Wine only uses free software although it does allow end-users to use windows dlls and such if they want.. but it's not supported and it's not ment to 'fill gaps' in wine's win32 support.

If you realy want 100% binary compatability with Windows in Linux the best way is to use the next generation Intel and AMD proccessors and run Linux and Windows XP Pro (not home) or Windows 2000 Pro in a Xen virtualized enviroment.

That way you can run Linux and when you need Windows compatability for this or that application you can start up Windows and access it through remote desktop and transfer files though samba or NTFS-FUSE.

With Linux's multiple desktop support you can do something like have 3 Linux desktops and 1 windows desktop if you feel like it. Since it happens over virtual networks in RAM and Xen provides near bare-hardware speed it will be very fast. The only downside is that it won't work with games since you won't get hardware acceleration from the Windows box.

It will provide you 100% application compatability though.

I can't wait. I want an OpenBSD workstation and testing machine on the same hardware at the same time. rool;

 

[doornail]

A couple thoughts...

One, I don't think Linux should be trying to replace Windows. They serve difference audiences and changing Linux into something that serves the AoL crowd may just ruin it. Do we really want a Gnome version of "Punch the Monkey and Win"? I'm expecting Linux to pan out like Firefox -- maxing out at around 20% desktop share made up mostly of tech savvy folks. Linux on the desktop will sneak in just as quietly as Linux on the server did.

Two, Windows compatibility is a waste of time. Wine is an amazing acheivement but once it starts cannibalizing Windows sales, Microsoft can attack it with technology or legal harrassment (or both). Plus, it will be a perpetual kite-chase where Wine is always "almost" compatible enough. Cross platform applications are the real win and you'll see a lot more as market share picks up. Windows, OSX, and Linux are all moving towards extra eye candy and skinnable themes. I predict these two factors will blur the lines between OS'es. I also expect Mac on Intel to be a boon for Linux too because it means PC hardware will be even more of a cheap, compatible commodity.

Three, I have to give Stash credit for staying pretty fair and even given his proximity to the kool aide fountain.

Cheers.

 

[CTho9305]

I'm expecting Linux to pan out like Firefox -- maxing out at around 20% desktop share made up mostly of tech savvy folks.

That works largely because most web pages "just work" in all browsers, and the ones that don't can usually be easily fixed. On the other hand, if I have a large Windows application, porting it can be a LOT of work. Of course, if you start with cross-platform development in mind, it won't be as hard. You do have to ask, though, whether the cost of developing cross-platform is more than 25%, because if it's not, it may not be worth it for companies to support Linux (I'm also assuming the technically-inclined people using Linux don't pirate more software than their parents using Windows, which is unlikely IMHO... so I'm assuming you get 80% of the market for Windows only, and the other 20% of the market is a 25% increase). Even if they do, it's possible they'd half-ass it as some game companies do for PC versions of console games (producing behavior that just doesn't fit right, like popping up Windows-style open/save dialogs, interacting poorly with middle-mouse-paste, requiring elevated privileges or write access to the install directory, having [OK] [Cancel] vs. [Cancel] [OK] on dialogs, etc). That's just talking about big companies with real development teams.

The next problem is people who write their own little utilities. When my brother learned OpenGL, he put together a whole bunch of little 3d games (some of which weren't bad!). Since he's developing on Windows, he used Windows API calls - if I were on Linux and didn't have something like WINE (which some people here seem to say isn't necessary), I wouldn't be able to try them out. Sure, that's not a deal-breaker, but it adds trouble to the experience, and once some threshold is reached, I might switch back to Windows. Of course, there are more interesting things than games like that - I have yet to find a good Linux replacement for "Scanner" here. When I do a quick & dirty script to automate some task, I'm just going to write for the OS I'm using, and I'm likely to make certain assumptions if it saves me time (e.g. "\" is the directory separator), so nobody on other platforms could use it.

The problem there is that there are some situations in which some type of monopoly actually makes sense. Being able to go to the store and buy any application I see, knowing it supports my OS, is important. Let's say we're at the 80/20 point, and some kid installs Linux on their parent's PC. Let's also assume 75% of software supports Linux well (I think that's optimistic). At some point, the parents are going to want some application (the latest tax software or some 3d home renovation preview application) that falls into the 25% that don't work, and they'll be unhappy. They'll tell their coworkers about their troubles.

 

[Nothinman]

The only way linux can take over windows is if it can support all application that can run on windows (without using wine or other programs like it)

Yea, because that worked so well for OS/2.

What about a direct/x linux alternative, does one exist?

Yes, it's called SDL.

I am ready to switch back to linux (again) but this is the only thing stopping me. I mean, how hard can it possibly be?

Go ahead and try and implement the hundreds of libraries that have been developed my MS over the past 20 years in your free time and see how fast you get a working product. And also remember that while you're reimplementing their older functions, with no use of their docs to keep yourself legally safe, they're implementing new ones for various things in Vista.

Can't someone just disassemble windows and implement all of m$ shotty code into linux and combine the two somehow?

Right, that's totally possible legally and technically and just no one has thought of it until now...

 

[spyordie007]

I'm expecting Linux to pan out like Firefox -- maxing out at around 20% desktop share made up mostly of tech savvy folks.

Even 20% would make a drastic differance in what platform(s) the ISVs build software for. Just think about all the "IE only" web sites that have been updated so they would work in firefox.

You dont always have to run the same app either. Just think about the apps that are out there that are compatable like Open Office with Microsoft Office, this will (eventually) probably get better with Microsoft's Office 12 because the format is going to be open and supposedly documented XML (so anyone could write an app that can read it).

You really want to see support for Linux to increase you need to put your money where your mouth is and buy software built for Linux. Demand followed by dollars is about the only sure-fire way to give ISVs the incentive to build their software for both platforms.

 

[Bluestealth]

I am expecting Open Source to write quality applications and servers, so that one day the underlying OS wont matter, and you will be able to mix differnt clients and servers to your companies liking at will.

 

[CTho9305]

Originally posted by: Bluestealth
I am expecting Open Source to write quality applications and servers, so that one day the underlying OS wont matter, and you will be able to mix differnt clients and servers to your companies liking at will.

If they were smart, they'd, port their apps to Windows (properly), so next time I look for a media player on Windows, I might find amaroK. When I look for a chat client, I might find gaim*. For a vector editor, Inkscape*. Then when I switch to Linux, I'll already have some apps I'm familiar with. Just don't do a bad job of it - gaim on Windows is a steaming pile of cow feces, and GTK-based apps in general are slow. If I have a positive experience with the applications on Windows, at some point I'll realize that nearly every app I use on Windows already works on Linux, and see little reason to pay $200 for the next Windows version when I could use my apps under Linux just as well.

*as I noted later, gaim on Windowsucks. Inkscape is much slower on Windows than on *nix, probably because of GTK.