Will green be the next bubble?

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,673
482
126
By Nigel Lawson

A combination of bad science, alarmism and vested interests has created an environmental bubble

At the heart of the credit crunch now afflicting the global economy is the bursting of a great housing bubble throughout much of the developed world. Bubbles are, of course, as old as capitalism itself. Many of us in England recall learning at school of the great South Sea bubble of the early 18th century. But they seem to be coming more frequently nowadays. The housing bubble has burst only a decade or so after the Internet and tech-stock bubble. So we may not need to wait all that long to see the next one. And the most likely candidate is a green bubble, fueled by climate-change alarmism and government subsidies.

The twin elements of a bubble are euphoria and roguery, with the proportions varying from case to case. The coming green bubble, which is already attracting large amounts of venture capital and government money, displays both.

In the purely financial world, the business opportunity is in carbon trading, of which there are two forms. The first is the batch of global mechanisms set up under the Kyoto agreement and administered by the U.N., of which the Clean Development Mechanism (CDM) is the most important. If a country with a Kyoto target finds it too difficult or costly to reduce its CO2 emissions, it can instead buy "certified emission reductions" from developing countries (which have no such targets). "Certified" means the U.N. has to be satisfied that the reduction would not have occurred anyway and that it has not been offset by increased emissions elsewhere (if, say, it has been achieved by a factory closing down). But the system is impossible to police, and media investigations have revealed that many CDM projects are distinctly dubious.

The other form of notable innovation in this area is the E.U.'s own Emission Trading Scheme, which so far has proved a costly (and corrupt) farce by according emitters too much say over the size of emissions permits.

In the wider business world the burgeoning opportunity is seen as investment in renewable energy, for which massive government subsidies are available. The front runners tend to be biofuels for transport and wind power for electricity generation. The E.U. is still committed to increasing the use of biofuels, but it has belatedly been recognized that large-scale production of crops for fuel rather than for food is a major cause of the surge in food prices that is causing severe hardship in much of the developing world. Moreover, approximately as much carbon-based energy is used in the production of most biofuels as is saved by their use.

Wind power is little better. Hopelessly uneconomic on any substantial scale, since it requires a conventional power back-up for when the wind stops blowing, forests of wind turbines are rightly regarded in most countries as an environmental monstrosity.

But the main reasons why this is a bubble are more fundamental. Emissions trading has a future only if the Kyoto agreement, which runs out in 2012, is succeeded by an even more far-reaching and rigorous global accord. It is now clear this is not going to happen. And in today's harsher economic climate, governments are more likely to look for ways to scale back subsidies for renewable energy than to boost them. Nor are voters likely to be willing to pay the larger energy bills that "green" policies demand.

All the more so since there is compelling evidence that no global warming is currently occurring. Although the alarmists are in denial about this, figures published annually by the Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research, an offshoot of the U.K.'s Met Office, show there has been no global warming so far this century, and recent research suggests this lull will last at least until 2015--when warming is expected to resume. Maybe it will: we shall see.

But a 15-year lull is not merely significant in political terms. It also needs to be set against the fact that the warming which caused the frenzy lasted only 25 years. From 1875 to 1975 internationally accepted records suggest that the average global temperature rose by a total of just 0.2°C. It was only the 0.5°C rise recorded in the fourth quarter of the last century that produced the hysteria that has sparked this gold rush among green entrepreneurs and investors.

There may well be a green business opportunity. But my advice to would-be investors is this: make sure you get out before the bubble bursts.

I don't think it has the weight behind it that housing does, but some green projects really do seem like an unsustainable fad.

Edit: Yeah I realize he says some controversial stuff about global warming, but let's ignore that for the purposes of this thread. :p
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,860
6,396
126
This is a new tactic. As lame as the rest, but new nontheless. No, there's no "Green" bubble. It is, however, the next big Opportunity.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,673
482
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
This is a new tactic. As lame as the rest, but new nontheless. No, there's no "Green" bubble. It is, however, the next big Opportunity.

For the record I'm not opposed at all to the idea of renewable energy. Obviously at some point it's going to go from being just a good idea to be a necessity, but I don't think it's going to come from corn.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
You have to understand the underpinnings of the "green movement". It is great in concept but not really economically feasible so the power brokers interested from deriving power from the movement have to create a religious like fervor to make people spend more than they should. Everyone would like truly green power but it also needs to be cost effective and at the present time that is not the case. We will get there eventually and that will be great. You have to look at the motivation of the people driving the green movement......they cannot make money from the energy sector of the economy without being hypocrites and possibly losing their political power. "Green Power" is their way to get into the energy business, but they rely on emotions and not economics at the moment and as a result there very well could be a bubble since the world economy is depressed and energy prices are low. These people absolutely LOVED when gasoline was over $4 a gallon.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Green is a perfect candidate for speculators and bulls...it will probably go through a similar cycle as the dot.com bubble...venture capitalists and investors throwing money at every big idea, followed by a tremendous crash as many of those ideas prove empty, with a few stable a sustainable business models surviving.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,860
6,396
126
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Green is a perfect candidate for speculators and bulls...it will probably go through a similar cycle as the dot.com bubble...venture capitalists and investors throwing money at every big idea, followed by a tremendous crash as many of those ideas prove empty, with a few stable a sustainable business models surviving.

Most likely.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Will green be the next bubble?

I don't see it as a bubble in the sense that housing and dot.com stocks were.

It has been receiving the bulk of venture capital investment over the past years, but that's not a "bubble"; it's more a 'hole' absorbing capital.

IMO, the (green stock) sector is too small to have any serious impact on the market (as tech stocks did back in in March of 2000).

If some, as of now, fantastic manner were found to generate (green) energy very cheaply it might help drive economies to new limits as did the automobile and pc's. But until then, IMO, it's just R&D soaking up peoples' money.

I don't think green energy could ever be a bubble, it's too narrow and small. I don't the entire energy sector could be a bubble either. The whole stock market - yeah; but not a sliver of it like energy.

I think it could better be defined as a 'rush' (as in 'gold rush') if more and more money flows into it. But a 'rush' isn't something that lifts the whole economy like a bubble can

Perhaps we have a different definition of a 'bubble'?

Fern.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Once Obama passes cap and trade then we will finally have a true market that will be worth running up and busting. Of course in the process slamming the low and middle class in the ass with higher energy and product costs.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
It's more pipe dream than a bubble. A closer equivalent is that its a fetish of the left, similar to the one the right has for ballistic missile defense. Both are enormously expensive while producing mostly theoretical benefits, require technology that doesn't exist to work, and are completely unrealistic as a comprehensive solution since they leave as many holes unfilled as problems they solve.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Dotcoms were complete fluff where 95% of the companies didn't need to exist.. how many website dev companies do we really need? And the housing bubble was based on almost fraud like practices and greed on banks and buyers.

Difference here is when you throw up a wind turbine you actually have something producing energy.. something we kind of need. Sure green could become a bubble but I don't see a resemblance to the last 2 bubbles at all. I hope it doesn't bubble though, I think it's a good thing but careful and steady would be nice.
 

imported_K3N

Golden Member
Dec 20, 2005
1,199
0
71
Green technology is a race to the bottom. What we need to invest in is high energy physics like nuclear power, and even fusion power.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,860
6,396
126
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Dotcoms were complete fluff where 95% of the companies didn't need to exist.. how many website dev companies do we really need? And the housing bubble was based on almost fraud like practices and greed on banks and buyers.

Difference here is when you throw up a wind turbine you actually have something producing energy.. something we kind of need. Sure green could become a bubble but I don't see a resemblance to the last 2 bubbles at all. I hope it doesn't bubble though, I think it's a good thing but careful and steady would be nice.

I think the Dot.Com bubble was worth it though. The Internet was a complete unknown Medium with lots of promise and little idea how far things could go with it. Amongst all those failures there were many Innovations that turned the Internet into a longterm continued success. There were certainly a lot of companies in there based upon nothing whom just took the money and ran, but without all the enthusiasm the Internet may have just turned into a passing fad.
 

tfcmasta97

Platinum Member
Feb 7, 2004
2,003
0
0
If corporations destroy themselves chasing 40-50% annual returns immediately instead of properly planning and performing at what's best for the long run, yea it could happen
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
No, not in its current form, I think the author of this piece is grasping at straws. The concept of alternative energies is not a bubble, and that's part and parcel of the green movement.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,447
216
106
HE bashes wind where Denmark gets most of its power from, doesn't seem unsustainable to me. It will supply 20% of our power where it makes sense, no it doesn't cover the need for baseline power but like any technology in its infancy its moving on up.
Molten salt storage, pumping water into resevoirs it does have storage options
These will be explored as it becomes necessary.
Push Kyoto and CO2 out of the way, growing populations, dimishing fossil fuels, we don't have much choice
 

mozirry

Senior member
Sep 18, 2006
760
1
0
the only way "green" is a bubble is if there is massive investments into green technology (wind/solar/bio) and it turns out down the road it doesn't produce any energy. Sort of like how the housing bubble invested money in home value when in actuality home values were not that high. So basically, you could have fields and fields of unwanted green technology.

The only problem is that "green" can mean a whole lot of stuff, like going to use that old rickety door in your woodpile for a cool art project/table to wanting to winterize your windows. I don't think it's possible to "bubble" that, I.E>, have WAY overpriced foam or yard junk
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,931
6,793
126
Maybe we can put off green long enough to go extinct. Yes, worring about a green bubble is going to be the top or my list.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Seems like we're wasting a lot of money not harvesting solar energy when it's basically given to us for free!!!
 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
1,692
0
0
Originally posted by: Ronstang
You have to understand the underpinnings of the "green movement". It is great in concept but not really economically feasible so the power brokers interested from deriving power from the movement have to create a religious like fervor to make people spend more than they should. Everyone would like truly green power but it also needs to be cost effective and at the present time that is not the case. We will get there eventually and that will be great. You have to look at the motivation of the people driving the green movement......they cannot make money from the energy sector of the economy without being hypocrites and possibly losing their political power. "Green Power" is their way to get into the energy business, but they rely on emotions and not economics at the moment and as a result there very well could be a bubble since the world economy is depressed and energy prices are low. These people absolutely LOVED when gasoline was over $4 a gallon.

Denmark's done a remarkable job in the last couple decades. They produce less emissions than in 1990, they produce more renewable energy than they take in, selling the excess to bordering countries like Germany. They've reduced their oil consumption by something like 65%.

On top of all that, Denmark still has one of the best economies in Europe. They've grown at a healthy clip, equal to or better than the rest of Europe.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Greed can make anything a "bubble".

Yep

Actually, no, it takes more than greed. It takes money, and more likely, easy money. And like the current economic fiasco, hardly anyone asks where all the easy money came from.