Will apple ever be enthusiast friendly?

[BD2003]

Every now and then I flirt with OS X and get the idea to add a Mac of some sort, but at the end of the day, the hardware is just so inflexible I just can't seriously consider it.

For a time I thought I'd stick with a laptop and get a MacBook pro, but the inability to change the HDD or even the battery at will with ease just stops me in my tracks. I mean this is basic stuff here. I've got a 2 year old Dell that I just replaced the battery for $30, and threw a $200 SSD in it and it's like a brand new system. I can't accept paying $1200 for a laptop and not being able to change the battery. It's just a non starter. I wouldn't consider that any more than I'd consider a car with the hood welded shut that only the dealer could open.

The desktops are pretty much the same way. I've been building PCs for years, and I just can't accept not being able to do something as simple as change a HDD, whether its the mini or the iMac.

I've tried hackintosh, but there's always that last bug that prevents me from seriously considering it. I can never get it to sleep correctly, driver bugs here and there.

Is apple simply not interested in this segment of the market? Is it just a cold calculation that they'd rather get people hooked on a whole system upgrade cycle rather than letting those who are comfortable with it tinker a bit? I'd love it if they put out an enthusiast desktop that you could easily open up, and didn't start at $3000 for quad xeons or whatever madness is in the Mac pro.

 

[TheStu]

Every now and then I flirt with OS X and get the idea to add a Mac of some sort, but at the end of the day, the hardware is just so inflexible I just can't seriously consider it.

For a time I thought I'd stick with a laptop and get a MacBook pro, but the inability to change the HDD or even the battery at will with ease just stops me in my tracks. I mean this is basic stuff here. I've got a 2 year old Dell that I just replaced the battery for $30, and threw a $200 SSD in it and it's like a brand new system. I can't accept paying $1200 for a laptop and not being able to change the battery. It's just a non starter. I wouldn't consider that any more than I'd consider a car with the hood welded shut that only the dealer could open.

The desktops are pretty much the same way. I've been building PCs for years, and I just can't accept not being able to do something as simple as change a HDD, whether its the mini or the iMac.

I've tried hackintosh, but there's always that last bug that prevents me from seriously considering it. I can never get it to sleep correctly, driver bugs here and there.

Is apple simply not interested in this segment of the market? Is it just a cold calculation that they'd rather get people hooked on a whole system upgrade cycle rather than letting those who are comfortable with it tinker a bit? I'd love it if they put out an enthusiast desktop that you could easily open up, and didn't start at $3000 for quad xeons or whatever madness is in the Mac pro.

Remove the 7? screws holding on the bottom and you have access to the hard drive, RAM and battery in the MBP and MacBook. The MBA I think uses pentalobular screws, and you can't remove the RAM (soldered to the logic board). The SSD is replaceable once parts become available as is the battery.

The battery is also designed to last at least 5 years, and so long as you aren't doing anything terrible to it, and still have warranty they will probably replace it for free.

I can understand your desktop concerns, but think about this; For the people that would buy an iMac, or an Inspiron desktop, how many of them are personally replacing anything in their system aside from maybe the RAM? Almost none. They will just buy their $500 Best Buy computer, use it until it is too slowed down by either age or cruft, get screwed by Geek Squad to fix it, or just buy another $500 desktop.

There is always hackintosh if you just want to play around with OS X and get a feel for it.

 

[Qbah]

No. There's no flexibility in terms of hardware (and what would you use it for on a Mac anyway?) and enthusiasts are so rare that there's no significant profit from them. Games run like sh!t on a Mac as most of them come with a IGP or a low performance GPU anyway (and even if you got a beefy GPU, games don't run so hot either).

For "upgradeability", fun with hardware changes and getting the best parts in their class, stick to a PC.

Apple is all about a closed, fully controlled environment. Something a hardware enthusiast will never accept.

 

[notposting]

Heck not just whole system upgrade...whole "ecosystem". Your Mac. Your iPhone. Your iPad. AppleTV. Your (the real money maker and hook) iTunes account.

They used to be enthusiast friendly with open systems. Offered top performance as well.
Or maybe find an Apple ][.

 

[BD2003]

Remove the 7? screws holding on the bottom and you have access to the hard drive, RAM and battery in the MBP and MacBook. The MBA I think uses pentalobular screws, and you can't remove the RAM (soldered to the logic board). The SSD is replaceable once parts become available as is the battery.

The battery is also designed to last at least 5 years, and so long as you aren't doing anything terrible to it, and still have warranty they will probably replace it for free.

I can understand your desktop concerns, but think about this; For the people that would buy an iMac, or an Inspiron desktop, how many of them are personally replacing anything in their system aside from maybe the RAM? Almost none. They will just buy their $500 Best Buy computer, use it until it is too slowed down by either age or cruft, get screwed by Geek Squad to fix it, or just buy another $500 desktop.

There is always hackintosh if you just want to play around with OS X and get a feel for it.

Well thats the thing. I'm not one of those people. Let me put it this way...I'm well aware of what makes an apple so great to the average user. I recommend them to basically everyone that isnt me.

I have a hackintosh install on a HDD, but it requires too much fiddling to be used in any serious way.

There's a lot I like about the OS, and in a lot of ways apple is more tuned the pulse of consumers. Microsoft is definitely more business centric and seems to only be going further in that direction, ceding the consumer market to apple.

The way I see it, with steam and now the Mac app store, apple could make a serious play for gaming on the mac. But it'll never happen with the systems they offer today. I'd like to get on their bandwagon, but they're just missing that one product that allows the user to do what they want with their hardware.

 

[Patranus]

Every now and then I flirt with OS X and get the idea to add a Mac of some sort, but at the end of the day, the hardware is just so inflexible I just can't seriously consider it..

OS X is about as enthusiast as a consumer grade main stream OS comes.

OS X is essentially Linux, the grand daddy of enthusiast of all operating systems.

 

[BD2003]

OS X is about as enthusiast as a consumer grade main stream OS comes.

OS X is essentially Linux, the grand daddy of enthusiast of all operating systems.

I know, that's why I want it. I really do like OS X.

I have an iPhone and iPad. They're way ahead of everyone else in the smartphone arena, and they're the only legitimate player in the tablet space. I'm fine with hardware being closed there, because you can't realistically expect a smartphone or tablet to be open.

On the desktop, they have the Mac mini. It's adorable, but for $700 its got laptop level hardware and my 4 year old Conroe is faster. Even if I could easily change a few components, the price performance isn't there.

Theres the iMac, but I'd be putting way too many eggs in a single basket there, and correct me if I'm wrong, but we're still dealing with laptop hard drives which are damn near impossible to upgrade. I have a file server, what I want in my pc is a small, fast SSD.

And theres the Mac pro, which I'm sure you can get anything you want in it, but its just so horrendously expensive it's not even worth mentioning.

There just seems to be a gaping hole in their desktop lineup. Theyve got the premium low end, the all in one, and the super high end, but no middle ground at all. It'd be incredibly hard to market a larger, more open desktop to many consumers, but the people that would be interested in such a thing wouldn't need marketing, they'd already know they want it. It could be another one of their "hobbies" like the appleTV, and they can eat away at yet another traditional windows segment.

 

[TheStu]

Theres the iMac, but I'd be putting way too many eggs in a single basket there, and correct me if I'm wrong, but we're still dealing with laptop hard drives which are damn near impossible to upgrade. I have a file server, what I want in my pc is a small, fast SSD.

The iMac uses standard 3.5" hard drives, but mobile GPUs. The latest versions also have a bay for a 2.5" SSD, but I would imagine that it isn't any more user accessible than the hard drive is.

Don't forget that unlike Windows, OS X can boot off of external hard drives, and with FW800, it is almost at full speed.

 

[Patranus]

I don't understand, and hackintosh is the ultimate enthusiast project.

Anyways, Apples base products are designed to "just work" and "just work well".
The entire point of Apple products is that you don't have to mix and match because what you buy "just work".

 

[VinylxScratches]

Why would they?

 

[TheStu]

Why would they?

Seriously, it isn't like they are hurting for cash by not tapping this market. And who is to say that the R&D investment would be worth it? It is sort of the same reason why they aren't going after the ultra-budget sector ($500 laptops/desktop) because they don't want the customer that only cares about that.

 

[Nothinman]

OS X is about as enthusiast as a consumer grade main stream OS comes.

OS X is essentially Linux, the grand daddy of enthusiast of all operating systems.

Neither of those are true. I'd even consider Windows more targeted at enthusiasts because it's more customizable and extensible by average users. You can't even theme OS X without hacking things.

And OS X isn't Linux at all. It's the Mach kernel with FreeBSD userland, I believe, with a few proprietary things from Apple in order to make standard things not work quite right.

Apple doesn't want to play to the enthusiast crowd because they like hardware churn. They want you to buy a new iWhatever every time they put out a new one without even considering about upgrading what you have now.

 

[Emulex]

mac pro cost me 2G fully loaded (dual xeon 4core8thread). upgradable? yes in every way.

cpu/ram/video/drives (5)/dvd/gasp(blu-ray).

You can get a 1socket (its an x58 board) for a little over a grand. alot? yes? runs osx without any hiccups ? yes.

just shop. their most expensive ($10K originally) depreciates so fast that its 2K in a year. more like a regular pc.

 

[BD2003]

Apple doesn't want to play to the enthusiast crowd because they like hardware churn. They want you to buy a new iWhatever every time they put out a new one without even considering about upgrading what you have now.

Yeah, thats my ultimate feeling. Counting on people to want to buy a whole new desktop/laptop instead of easily replacing or upgrading anything.

Seriously, it isn't like they are hurting for cash by not tapping this market. And who is to say that the R&D investment would be worth it? It is sort of the same reason why they aren't going after the ultra-budget sector ($500 laptops/desktop) because they don't want the customer that only cares about that.

Honestly, all they would have to do is put out a legit mainboard to satisfy me. One that would be officially recognized and update, suspend, etc without any issues. The obvious answer to why not would be that then other companies could make fake macs like Psystar. And they probably wouldnt want that because a lot of people would be genuinely interested in that product for so many reasons instead of the "official" ones.

It just seems like small thinking to me. Theyve cornered the MP3 market. Theyve cornered the tablet market. If they hadnt stuck on to a single carrier, they could have cornered the smartphone market in the US. But theyre more than happy to take only a fraction of the PC market. Seems so strange to me.

 

[sourceninja]

I don't see them making parts easier to access. It just isn't good for their target business model.

However, I really don't mind it. When I was using a gaming computer, I was always upgrading, fiddling, etc. My computer was costing me hundreds upon hundreds with constant upgrades. Finally, I realized that was a pointless waste of my time and money and all I really need is a new computer every 4 or 5 years.

I get more work done, and I get more enjoyment out of my computer now. It's strange.

 

[BD2003]

I don't see them making parts easier to access. It just isn't good for their target business model.

However, I really don't mind it. When I was using a gaming computer, I was always upgrading, fiddling, etc. My computer was costing me hundreds upon hundreds with constant upgrades. Finally, I realized that was a pointless waste of my time and money and all I really need is a new computer every 4 or 5 years.

I get more work done, and I get more enjoyment out of my computer now. It's strange.

Sure, I can understand that. I've since stopped really upgrading myself.

The problem is that in 2011, there's no way to convince me to buy a computer with a HDD instead of an SSD, a DVD drive instead of a BD drive, mobile graphics and core 2 duo processors. They're putting really weak hardware in a really shiny box. I'm willing to pay some sort of premium, but I can't get down with what they're offering.

I'm reading a little here or there about custom bios for certain motherboards...how well do they work? Could I literally just buy one of those boards, pop in snow leopard and have it work perfectly out of the box, sleep and all?

 

[Ka0t1x]

Its a lot more complicated than putting out a mainboard.. but yeah..

Anyways, maybe I've missed it but what system are you complaining about? MBP can have its core components replaced. The problem holding back the C2D CPU was the Lawsuit between nVidia and Intel. Now that its all over and everybody's friendly again -- as rumors are going around MBP's are going to get a little sandy.

 

[BD2003]

I'm more interested in the desktop side than laptop. But the fact that apple is going to get sandy bridge is a rumor? Shouldn't that be basically a given, or are things really that backwards?

 

[TheStu]

I'm more interested in the desktop side than laptop. But the fact that apple is going to get sandy bridge is a rumor? Shouldn't that be basically a given, or are things really that backwards?

Apple is pushing OpenCL, their method for GPGPU programming. Both nVidia and AMD support this method (as well as their own), and OpenCL is a big part of Snow Leopard.

With the Core iX processors, Intel put nVidia in the dog house and told them that they couldn't make chipsets anymore. They also do not support OpenCL with the integrated GPUs, and they pulled the memory controller off of the die. These things combine to make a Core iX system a 2 chip package minimum. Add in a separate discrete card to support OpenCL, and you are looking at 3 decent size packages, all that need cooling, and neither the MacBook Air nor the 13" MacBook/Pro have the room to effectively fit and cool a third chip.

So, Apple was forced to make a choice, either stick their customers with a more better (its a technical term) CPU, but pisspoor graphics that don't work with their technologies, or give them the better GPU, and stick them with a 3-4 year old processor that is inferior in almost every way. They opted for GPU over CPU, and since the reports on the MBA are that it performs just fine with its Core2, then I think for this round of updates at least, they did ok.

 

[BD2003]

How is sandy bridge going to change that though? The integrated graphics are better, but still not good enough, and nvidia isn't building a new chipset for it. Still going to need 3 chips if it's going to be taken serious as a premium machine.

It seems like the answer, at least on the desktop side, is not to try and stuff everything in such a small box or behind a monitor.

 

[Nothinman]

How is sandy bridge going to change that though? The integrated graphics are better, but still not good enough, and nvidia isn't building a new chipset for it. Still going to need 3 chips if it's going to be taken serious as a premium machine.

It seems like the answer, at least on the desktop side, is not to try and stuff everything in such a small box or behind a monitor.

But their target audience wants small and cute more than powerful, useful and extensible...

 

[Zaap]

I'm reading a little here or there about custom bios for certain motherboards...how well do they work? Could I literally just buy one of those boards, pop in snow leopard and have it work perfectly out of the box, sleep and all?

It's a little more complicated than that, but basically yes ...and no. It's not quite out of the box and there are BIOS hacks, but most of them are unnecessary beyond cosmetics. Snow Leopard is as easy to install on the right hardware (with a slight bit of effort beyond the norm) as most any other OS.

The modern OSx86 effort IS the enthusiast's Apple solution. Expecting Apple to provide that is just a pipe dream- there's no reason why they ever will. From this point forward their momentum will always be 180 degrees in the opposite direction: making 'entertainment gadgets' that are as much closed-appliances as possible.

Quite frankly, anyone that can't figure out (from the abundance of info) how to build, install and maintain a Hackintosh in 2011 that's as stable and reliable as any other computer...*drumroll* isn't really a tech enthusiast. (Or at least not one that bothers to think their tech projects through correctly, in which case I'd still cite the former statement). Is it bone simple enough that someone's grandmother would be into it? Not really. But since when has that been the measure of an 'enthusiast'? For a true one, OSx86 in this day and age is child's play simple.

 

[Ns1]

It seems like the answer, at least on the desktop side, is not to try and stuff everything in such a small box or behind a monitor.

because the only people that want this are gamers who will just end up buying PC machines anyway? who the fuck wants a giant computer block? i want to sell my gaming rig and get an MBA.

 

[BD2003]

It's a little more complicated than that, but basically yes ...and no. It's not quite out of the box and there are BIOS hacks, but most of them are unnecessary beyond cosmetics. Snow Leopard is as easy to install on the right hardware (with a slight bit of effort beyond the norm) as most any other OS.

The modern OSx86 effort IS the enthusiast's Apple solution. Expecting Apple to provide that is just a pipe dream- there's no reason why they ever will. From this point forward their momentum will always be 180 degrees in the opposite direction: making 'entertainment gadgets' that are as much closed-appliances as possible.

Quite frankly, anyone that can't figure out (from the abundance of info) how to build, install and maintain a Hackintosh in 2011 that's as stable and reliable as any other computer...*drumroll* isn't really a tech enthusiast. (Or at least not one that bothers to think their tech projects through correctly, in which case I'd still cite the former statement). Is it bone simple enough that someone's grandmother would be into it? Not really. But since when has that been the measure of an 'enthusiast'? For a true one, OSx86 in this day and age is child's play simple.

Knowing how to get OSX running perfectly and actually wanting to deal with them are two separate things. I have a p965 C2D hackintosh install that was damn near perfect...in leopard. In snow leopard I've been continually unable to get it to sleep/resume with any reliability, and I've got all these USB problems. I can't even get my 4th and 5th mouse buttons to work.

My favorite part of hackintosh is the point updates though. Who knows what those will break.

I've long since grown tired of fiddling with the software side of things just to make something work. I attained those skills from year of dealing with dos/windows back in the day, and I quite honestly don't want to exercise them if I don't have to. I want things to just work, but I'd like that hardware to be of my choosing.

 

[Zaap]

Part of knowing how to get Snow Leopard to work right, is using the right hardware.

I kind of equate this to complaining that my 'gaming rig' requires too much fiddling when I'm trying to run Win7 x64, some demanding game, and modern power-hungry graphics cards on an ancient motherboard that predates everything else by a significant margin. Why would any 'enthusiast' waste their time expecting that to be anything other than a PITA, instead of just research and get the proper 2011-era hardware for whatever games they want to run?

Likewise, Snow Leopard can be made to run flawlessly on the right hardware, but why would I pull my hair out trying to run it on some motherboard that came out several years before it did, with no established solution for hacking it?

Point updates are usually no problem, and when there is an issue an actual 'enthusiast' can easily figure out the work around in about three seconds. I've personally had no issues yet with SL updates 10.6.x, and before that I recall only 10.5.6 being a bit of trouble.

I'm sorry, but I just don't get the contradiction here: people call themselves enthusiasts, but at the same time they want Apple to provide them with an out-of-box, hold-your-hand 'appliance' solution because understanding the tech to avoid unnecessary fiddling with enthusiast gear is too difficult? HUH?