Will 65nm process REALLY make Xbox 360 reliable?

[Dacalo]

I know some of ATers are waiting for 65nm revision in Xbox 360 before they purchase one (me included to certain extent, until problems are fixed).

After reading this article however, I don't know how the shrinkage would solve all these problems.

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Face it: the Xbox 360 isn't quite up to snuff. The design is flawed, leading to an abnormal number of machines konking out. Since Microsoft won't reveal the details of what exactly is causing the problems, Japanese news source Nikkei had a thermal design expert analyze the 360's heat radiation system. Two Xbox 360's were used for the investigation: one purchased in 2005, and the other that was repaired in May 2007. Their findings?


? The temperature gap with room temp was 22 degrees C. "When designing consumer products, it is common to seek a temperature gap of around 10 degrees C between exhaust and room temperatures," the thermal design expert said. "The 22 degrees C is quite a large gap..."
? The cooling fan was half of desktop PCs ? apparently to reduce noise.
? The expert pointed out, "The heat sink on the graphics LSI is so small, I wonder if it can really cool down the board." The reason for this? Apparently, Microsoft had to downsized graphics LSI heat sink so that the DVD drive could be placed above it.
? In five minutes after booting up a game, the graphic LSI heat sink temp rose to 70 degrees C. In 15 minutes, the temperature for the microprocessor heat sink stabilized at 58 degrees, but the graphics LSI heat sink reached 80 degrees C. If the room temperature was high (like 35 degrees C), the heat sink could possibly hit 100 degrees C. What's more, if the vents were clogged with dust, the temperature could also increase.
? The console repaired in May 2007 did not have a new heat sink placed in it.
This is bad design. Really, really bad.

In order to fix some of these, they have to change the whole innards of the console, because some unmovable parts such as the DVD drive exist. I am not sure how Falcon version would solve all these problems; the heat reduction needs to be VERY significant because current operating temperature is so damn high. Perhaps MS realizes, and that's why they are already proposing 45nm revision?

 

[Netscorer]

Just switching to 65nm chips, Xbox will achieve ~ 40-50% in thermal emission reduction - this is big!
Plus, MS has already stated that 65nm model would feature radically redesigned board. Most of the current 'dead-ringers' were the result not such of high temperature per say, as the flawed design that did not account for board expansion/contraction as temperatures rose/fell with the console use. This resulted in severed contacts and broken console.

 

[Queasy]

The 45nm revision is just part of the natural progression of die shrinkage to reduce costs. Much like the PS2 has done and the PS3 will do.

Additionally, the 65nm chips will run much cooler than the current 90nm chipset. That will take the load off the heatsink and fans. I'm sure there are other changes in the layout and type of materials used (like not using the current clamp holding down the GPU).

CheapyD at CAG saw the Limited Edition Halo 3 360 during E3. He said it ran much quieter and cooler than current 360. Not as quiet as the PS3 but almost. Presumably, it was using the 65nm chips.

 

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: Netscorer
Just switching to 65nm chips, Xbox will achieve ~ 40-50% in thermal emission reduction - this is big!
Plus, MS has already stated that 65nm model would feature radically redesigned board. Most of the current 'dead-ringers' were the result not such of high temperature per say, as the flawed design that did not account for board expansion/contraction as temperatures rose/fell with the console use. This resulted in severed contacts and broken console.

Exactly. You're automatically getting less heat just by going to 65nm.

Also, what makes you think that Microsoft would be stupid enough to only change that one thing? You think they don't know as well as a third party what's causing the problems? Only an idiot would say it's impossible to change other things to fix problems with the board. The "insider" reports have mentioned other changes in the redesign from a quieter dvd drive, to a redesigned heatsink, to an extra fan.

The repaired console is not the same console that they will be releasing with the 65nm chip.

 

[DaveSimmons]

^ what Queasy said. Moving to 45nm is just part of the normal cost-cutting roadmap for MS, Sony, intel and AMD not a secret admission of failure.

So my dream of a 65nm redesign that's hopefully more reliable lives on.

 

[Netscorer]

...Also, what makes you think that Microsoft would be stupid enough to only change that one thing?...

Well..., they were stupid in the first place to release a design that any competent PC designer would never use. They did not do extensive testing and tried to cut production costs as much as possible. Cost of their stupidity - $1.3Bln.

Wanna bet that they will try now to cut costs again to somehow compensate for the losses?

Having said this, I still do believe that 65nm model would be less prone to to break ups comparing to the original. By how much less, we would not know for another year or more.

 

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: Netscorer

...Also, what makes you think that Microsoft would be stupid enough to only change that one thing?...

Well..., they were stupid in the first place to release a design that any competent PC designer would never use. They did not do extensive testing and tried to cut production costs as much as possible. Cost of their stupidity - $1.3Bln.

Wanna bet that they will try now to cut costs again to somehow compensate for the losses?

Having said this, I still do believe that 65nm model would be less prone to to break ups comparing to the original. By how much less, we would not know for another year or more.

There might well be other problems with this edition, but I'd bet a large amount of money that heat won't be one of them. If anything they're going to overcompensate, because of that 1.3 billion. Too much money and too many jobs are on the line for anyone to be okay with more reports of overheating consoles. Unless someone's claiming that the 360 engineers and executives overseeing them all have no interest in keeping their jobs, there's no way this isn't designed and thoroughly tested to neutralize heat issues.

I'm not saying this system will be perfect and they won't cut other corners, I'm just saying it's not going to be the same heat issue.

 

[tatteredpotato]

It's been said that Falcon will use the extra heatsink just to be safe too.

 

[PricklyPete]

The idea that shrinking the die automatically makes the system would be ignorant. The article you link to has absolutely no bearing on how reliable the 65nm design will be either and is just as ignorant.

When MS releases the 65nm chip, it will be the first major work-over the system will have and will usher in many changes to reduce the price of the console and fix old mistakes. Those mistakes specifically will be problems with heat and DVD drives. MS has every reason to be very concerned about these problems since they have cost the company a lot of face and money.

While the redesigned system will not guarantee a more reliable platform, odds are that it will be significantly improved and in the long run cheaper which should help in reducing the price to the consumer. It is in MS's interest to make these systems as reliable and cheap as possible as the real money they make is in software...not hardware sales. You buying a second 360 really does nothing for them other than build up their perceived install base. They want you buying games for as long as possible.

 

[BD2003]

I'm just hoping that along with the 65nm chip heat reduction, they can also do something about the vaccum cleaner they must have stuck inside that DVD drive of theirs.

It would be wonderful if they'd just let us install games to the hard drive already. Not only will it be much more silent, it'll load faster. Theres no good reason that we shouldnt be able to do this - they can treat it just like a PC game and do a CD check when you fire it up.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: BD2003
I'm just hoping that along with the 65nm chip heat reduction, they can also do something about the vaccum cleaner they must have stuck inside that DVD drive of theirs.

As I mentioned above, CheapyD from CAG said that the Limited Edition Halo 3 360 was running almost as quiet as a PS3. One can assume that means the DVD drive as well.

It would be wonderful if they'd just let us install games to the hard drive already. Not only will it be much more silent, it'll load faster. Theres no good reason that we shouldnt be able to do this - they can treat it just like a PC game and do a CD check when you fire it up.

Would be nice but I'm not sure that'll happen since the majority of 360s have 20GB drives on them. Only 13GBs are actually available which would extremely limit the ability to install games on the HDD and still allow user to download demos, XBLA games, videos, etc.

 

[foghorn67]

Did a PS3 owner just start this thread?

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Did a PS3 owner just start this thread?

youre funny.


anyway, the outrageous fail rate of the 360 is the only reason why i havent picked one up since gow has come out, now that blue dragon is nearly here i think im really gonna hurt for one, the reliable edition cant come sooner.

 

[Dacalo]

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Did a PS3 owner just start this thread?

Yes, someone who almost bought an Xbox 360 before consoles started to fail at an alarming rate.

BTW, don't you notice all those negative PS3 related news started by Xbox 360 owners?

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: BD2003
I'm just hoping that along with the 65nm chip heat reduction, they can also do something about the vaccum cleaner they must have stuck inside that DVD drive of theirs.

As I mentioned above, CheapyD from CAG said that the Limited Edition Halo 3 360 was running almost as quiet as a PS3. One can assume that means the DVD drive as well.

It would be wonderful if they'd just let us install games to the hard drive already. Not only will it be much more silent, it'll load faster. Theres no good reason that we shouldnt be able to do this - they can treat it just like a PC game and do a CD check when you fire it up.

Would be nice but I'm not sure that'll happen since the majority of 360s have 20GB drives on them. Only 13GBs are actually available which would extremely limit the ability to install games on the HDD and still allow user to download demos, XBLA games, videos, etc.

Well, elites have 80gb, and being able to install would be a positive selling point, not to mention a far more significant difference than a HDMI port that isnt even necessary on a 720p system.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Did a PS3 owner just start this thread?

youre funny.


anyway, the outrageous fail rate of the 360 is the only reason why i havent picked one up since gow has come out, now that blue dragon is nearly here i think im really gonna hurt for one, the reliable edition cant come sooner.

Do you have a Costco membership, or do you have a close friend or relative who has one?

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: Dacalo

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Did a PS3 owner just start this thread?

Yes, someone who almost bought an Xbox 360 before consoles started to fail at an alarming rate.

BTW, don't you notice all those negative PS3 related news started by Xbox 360 owners?

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts...

 

[Dacalo]

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: Dacalo

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Did a PS3 owner just start this thread?

Yes, someone who almost bought an Xbox 360 before consoles started to fail at an alarming rate.

BTW, don't you notice all those negative PS3 related news started by Xbox 360 owners?

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts...

I am not here to start a flame war, I just want to see the console to be more reliable so people like me can purchase one later. I don't post every single negative Xbox news.

I pointed out about Xbox owners posting negative PS3 news because you seem to be critical of my one post while you don't even mention other posts by Xbox owners.

 

[tatteredpotato]

Originally posted by: Dacalo

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: Dacalo

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Did a PS3 owner just start this thread?

Yes, someone who almost bought an Xbox 360 before consoles started to fail at an alarming rate.

BTW, don't you notice all those negative PS3 related news started by Xbox 360 owners?

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts...

I am not here to start a flame war, I just want to see the console to be more reliable so people like me can purchase one later. I don't post every single negative Xbox news.

I pointed out about Xbox owners posting negative PS3 news because you seem to be critical of my one post while you don't even mention other posts by Xbox owners.

I think his problem lies in you're interpretation of the article. You seem to think that it means that the 65nm revision won't help. Nowhere does the article mention anything about 65nm.

Perhaps if you had titled along the lines of "360 has pitiful themal design"

 

[mugs]

Did they seriously conduct their testing on a carpeted floor?

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Did a PS3 owner just start this thread?

youre funny.


anyway, the outrageous fail rate of the 360 is the only reason why i havent picked one up since gow has come out, now that blue dragon is nearly here i think im really gonna hurt for one, the reliable edition cant come sooner.

Do you have a Costco membership, or do you have a close friend or relative who has one?

my parents and a few of my friends do, but thats not the point. even having to miss a few minutes of gaming because of a rrod would be enough for me to go bonkers. mostly over myself for being dumb enough to buy one knowing the failure rates.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Did a PS3 owner just start this thread?

youre funny.


anyway, the outrageous fail rate of the 360 is the only reason why i havent picked one up since gow has come out, now that blue dragon is nearly here i think im really gonna hurt for one, the reliable edition cant come sooner.

Do you have a Costco membership, or do you have a close friend or relative who has one?

my parents and a few of my friends do, but thats not the point. even having to miss a few minutes of gaming because of a rrod would be enough for me to go bonkers. mostly over myself for being dumb enough to buy one knowing the failure rates.

Eh, ok, whatever floats your boat.

I have a feeling a lot of the people who say they're waiting for the 65 nm 360 are just saying that so they can't be labeled as fanboys.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: BD2003
Well, elites have 80gb, and being able to install would be a positive selling point, not to mention a far more significant difference than a HDMI port that isnt even necessary on a 720p system.

Actually they have 120GB...and I agree it would be an awesome addition.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Not many people will be buying the Elite after Falcon / 65nm Premiums are out, since they will have the HDMI port too. Then Elites will be an extra $100 just for the black color and HD space.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Not many people will be buying the Elite after Falcon / 65nm Premiums are out, since they will have the HDMI port too. Then Elites will be an extra $100 just for the black color and HD space.

I'm sure there will be plenty buying those as well. The extra 100GB HDD space comes in handy. Especially for those that make use of the Video Marketplace.