Wii processor vs. PS3/Xbox 360 Processor[s]

Dec 30, 2004
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-We know they're all PowerPC processors.
-And we know the Wii's processor is _very_ similary to the Gamecube's, but it is clocked at 1.1Ghz (instead of 485Mhz). Its got a few extra instructions, but for the most part, it is exactly the same. [This is a Good Thing].
-Xbox360 and PS3 both have the same general purpose PowerPC cores, except for one thing: Xbox360's general purpose cores can execute two threads each. So it can have a total of six threads being executed simultaneously. Usefulness of this feature is undecided.
-PS3's general purpose core can't do 6 threads, it can only do one. And it has to worry about keeping the SPE's filled with information as well. Usefulness for things other than physics is minimal. Perhaps AI can be implemented using matrix algebra, I don't know. But the PowerPC core will be busy trying to coordinate everything going on in the hardware: listening to the hard drive, loading that information into the RAM, loading that into Video RAM, and filling the SPE's. How much time do you think will be left to do actual computation? Not much, if any at all, especially considering it only supports IOE.

And people come out and bash the Wii when it has the only REAL processor that can actually DO anything useful. The Xbox360 and Cell's core processors are crap. Xbox360 at least has three of the PS3 core CPU's (though only 1MB of L2 cache for all six threads), but the PS3's processing unit is a joke.

The next-gen Gekko is everything that the Gekko was and more: OOE, plenty of cache (now it has 1MB), 1.1 Ghz, and even _more_ instruction optimizations.

You don't exactly laugh at a 1.1Ghz G4 processor, when the maximum speed produced was what, 1.8Ghz/2.0Ghz? So we've got something that, especially with the 1MB L2 cache (that can be used for useful things like OOE) I'd say it is about the equivalent of an Athlon64 2000+ (if such a thing existed).

The Gamecube's GPU was just a bit limited by the Gekko. I think it is safe to say the same will be the case this time around, otherwise Nintendo would throw less money into the CPU. Know what kind of games you could play before you were CPU limited on an Athlon 64 2000+? Some pretty fine looking ones I bet you. We're not on a PC, so that means even more.

Nintendo keeps downplaying their role in the graphics war, but in all honesty, the Wii really is a serious hardware upgrade. People thought the GC was the weakest console at first, but it ended up having the prettiest games. Granted Nintendo was trying to stay current with the GC, but the overly-simplistic PowerPC cores that the Xbox360 and PS3 use are so crippled that they aren't all that much better (50% maybe?) than the Wii's next-gen Gekko.

Give me a graphically updated F-Zero GX with some more tracks and online play and I wouldn't need many other games. I have yet to see any Xbox360 games as impressive as F-Zero GX's Firefield: Undulation track replay. Its just too pretty and fun.
 

dexvx

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Feb 2, 2000
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http://www.arstechnica.com

Hannibal (who is a CPU Architect) has already given the run down on this. Wii's CPU/GPU is nowhere near as powerful as the Xbox360 or PS3. I think he quoted some industry insider as saying the Wii is only about 50% more powerful than the original Xbox. As for PS3 / Xbox360, he stated that the PS3 CPU is more powerful when operating at peak efficiency. However, it would take an entire generation to even begin to take that into effect. So for now, PS3 is argueably weaker than Xbox360 just because its so hard to code for.
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
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Dexvx has it right on. However, I place one and only one grain of salt into the pool when speaking of how console performance will affect their sales and success. This generation is not going to be as simple as the last few have been.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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1. Wii's processor is very similar to the Gamecube, this is a bad thing! It makes it absolutely ancient, only slightly more OOE than the in order cpus of the PS3 and Xbox 360, and with far far less calculation ability.
2. Xbox 360's hyperthreading are basically the only control over hardware uses the developer is given.
3. PS3's general purpose core can do 2 threads, and though perhaps harder, it seems like the segmented 7 core approach would give the developer more control over hardware resources.
4. Out of order execution processors are relatively new. Only since the Pentium Pro have they been used in PCs, and besides Intel and AMD, IBM is about the only company to use them and they're not that big of a fan. OOE isn't needed for many tasks, though I'd say gaming, as modeled after the PC, does. The gecko, I believe, only has like a 2 stage pipeline, so it barely counts of OOE. Oh, and the cpu doesn't run at 1.1ghz, it runs at 728Mhz, just IBM's similar processors run up to 1.1ghz.

5. The Xbox 360 and Cell cores are not crap compared to the Wii. It's arguable if they're better to have than a 2ghz athlon xp, but not a Wii. When the xbox 360 came out, it was revealed that its cpu was giving slightly less performance than the Celeron in the Xbox. That would be with no hyperthreading and no optimizations, and only utilizing one core. It is quite likely that hyperthreading + the 3 cores could give a 6 fold performance increase over that, and any optimizations they could do would help even more. (of course, fully utilizing 6 threads is the trick, isn't it? still, there's no way it's slower than the wii's processor)

You don't exactly laugh at a 1.1Ghz G4 processor, when the maximum speed produced was what, 1.8Ghz/2.0Ghz? So we've got something that, especially with the 1MB L2 cache (that can be used for useful things like OOE) I'd say it is about the equivalent of an Athlon64 2000+ (if such a thing existed).

Laughable comparision. The G4 performed worse clock for clock per cache than a Pentium 3, and you're still wrong on the clock speed. I'd say it'll be comparable to a sempron (athlon 64 based) at 729mhz. Also, this is not a G4, this is a G3 processor, though the difference between the two is small (G4 had faster cache and SIMD). Now then, this thing does have much much lower latency memory than used in a PC, but it's also considerably weaker than PC cpus so it may not see much benefit. Still, you're looking at something probably around comparable to a 1ghz athlon back in the day.

The Gamecube's GPU was just a bit limited by the Gekko. I think it is safe to say the same will be the case this time around, otherwise Nintendo would throw less money into the CPU. Know what kind of games you could play before you were CPU limited on an Athlon 64 2000+? Some pretty fine looking ones I bet you. We're not on a PC, so that means even more.

Just a bit limited? The Gamecube had a powerful enough cpu, it was the graphics chip that really held it back, and that the cpu had to do a lot of the work that the Xbox's and PS2's gpus could do. Plus, we've already seen the Wii's games, we know they're far more comparable to gamecube titles (not even the best gamecube titles so far) and not PC titles.

Nintendo keeps downplaying their role in the graphics war, but in all honesty, the Wii really is a serious hardware upgrade. People thought the GC was the weakest console at first, but it ended up having the prettiest games. Granted Nintendo was trying to stay current with the GC, but the overly-simplistic PowerPC cores that the Xbox360 and PS3 use are so crippled that they aren't all that much better (50% maybe?) than the Wii's next-gen Gekko.

Quite a few people argued that it was the most powerful or the 2nd most powerful. I'd say it was more powerful than xbox in most ways, but its lack of shaders killed it. And don't kid yourself that this is at all a decent hardware upgrade. Probably the only reason the clock speeds were increased at all was due to the shrink from 180nm to 90nm, and higher clock speeds automatically come with those, in addition to lower prices. Each core in the Xbox 360 is at least slightly more powerful than the Wii's processor, all that's really needed to give them a major lead over the wii's processor is some good optimization or good multithreading. Do you honestly think processors with 10x to 100x the transistors (gecko was 6 million) would have anywhere near the performance of the simpler processor? It's debatable whether the x360 cpu and cell could take a modern PC cpu, but there's no way they'll have trouble steamrolling a processor that would have been top of the line in mid 2001.

So for now, PS3 is argueably weaker than Xbox360 just because its so hard to code for.

It's supposendly easier than PS2.
 

compgeek89

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Dec 11, 2004
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Im disappointed with al lthe "next gen" console CPUs. Intel has already seen that hyperthreading is next to useless and are discontinuing it, and an Athlon 64 would cremate the CELL/Xenos at almost anything (The CELL having a FEW exceptions, very few)

Im just sticking to my PC.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: compgeek89
Im disappointed with al lthe "next gen" console CPUs. Intel has already seen that hyperthreading is next to useless and are discontinuing it, and an Athlon 64 would cremate the CELL/Xenos at almost anything (The CELL having a FEW exceptions, very few)

Im just sticking to my PC.

I disagree with hyperthreading being useless. It gave decent improvements for Northwood, and rather impressive ones for Prescott. And since the console cpus lack the Out of Order Execution of PC cpus, I'd imagine hyperthreading will be much much more important for resource management to avoid pipeline stalls. I can't think of any other in-order processors that have pipelines as long as the console cpus, and the main thing OOE solves are the problems brought about by long pipelines. Split the pipeline in half with hyperthreading, and you've just halved the chances for pipeline stalls, though they should still be a serious problem on this consoles.
 

dexvx

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Feb 2, 2000
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Originally posted by: compgeek89
Im disappointed with al lthe "next gen" console CPUs. Intel has already seen that hyperthreading is next to useless and are discontinuing it, and an Athlon 64 would cremate the CELL/Xenos at almost anything (The CELL having a FEW exceptions, very few)

Uh... they are not discontinuing SMT. SMT for Core CPU's needs more R&D because its a different design than Netburst CPU's. SMT is the future, and almost every new CPU Design has it.

Originally posted by: Fox5

So for now, PS3 is argueably weaker than Xbox360 just because its so hard to code for.

It's supposendly easier than PS2.


No its not. Emotion had several cores to deal with, but micro-managing a core + 5 other SPE's (2 SPE's saved for OS related activities) and their independant cache is just doctoral work.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: dexvx
Originally posted by: compgeek89
Im disappointed with al lthe "next gen" console CPUs. Intel has already seen that hyperthreading is next to useless and are discontinuing it, and an Athlon 64 would cremate the CELL/Xenos at almost anything (The CELL having a FEW exceptions, very few)

Uh... they are not discontinuing SMT. SMT for Core CPU's needs more R&D because its a different design than Netburst CPU's. SMT is the future, and almost every new CPU Design has it.

Originally posted by: Fox5

So for now, PS3 is argueably weaker than Xbox360 just because its so hard to code for.

It's supposendly easier than PS2.


No its not. Emotion had several cores to deal with, but micro-managing a core + 5 other SPE's (2 SPE's saved for OS related activities) and their independant cache is just doctoral work.

Well, in the same comment when John Carmack stated that PS3 is harder to program for than 360, he also stated that unlike last generation, none of them are terribly hard to program for. For that matter, devs are much more receptive of the PS3 now than they were of the PS2 then, you're not hearing nearly as many horror stories.
Now, whether or not the hardware is easier or harder to use now doesn't matter, what matters now is that Sony has far far superior dev tools available, whereas with the PS2 they were nearly nonexistant, and one of the VUs never had a good compiler built for it.
 

dexvx

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Feb 2, 2000
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Originally posted by: Fox5
Well, in the same comment when John Carmack stated that PS3 is harder to program for than 360, he also stated that unlike last generation, none of them are terribly hard to program for. For that matter, devs are much more receptive of the PS3 now than they were of the PS2 then, you're not hearing nearly as many horror stories.
Now, whether or not the hardware is easier or harder to use now doesn't matter, what matters now is that Sony has far far superior dev tools available, whereas with the PS2 they were nearly nonexistant, and one of the VUs never had a good compiler built for it.

Sony has poor documentation. Unlike Microsoft, they are not a software company by heart. PS2's dev documentation was so poor, Hannibal's PS2 guide was being linked by Sony Dev's as the beginner's guide to the Emotion engine. It was that bad, and it still is that bad. I was hearing horror stories with Emotion Engine, and I'm hearing more horror stories with Cell. Its not as bad with the 360 because Microsoft documents nearly everything and they have more people working with the game dev's on technical issues.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: dexvx
Originally posted by: Fox5
Well, in the same comment when John Carmack stated that PS3 is harder to program for than 360, he also stated that unlike last generation, none of them are terribly hard to program for. For that matter, devs are much more receptive of the PS3 now than they were of the PS2 then, you're not hearing nearly as many horror stories.
Now, whether or not the hardware is easier or harder to use now doesn't matter, what matters now is that Sony has far far superior dev tools available, whereas with the PS2 they were nearly nonexistant, and one of the VUs never had a good compiler built for it.

Sony has poor documentation. Unlike Microsoft, they are not a software company by heart. PS2's dev documentation was so poor, Hannibal's PS2 guide was being linked by Sony Dev's as the beginner's guide to the Emotion engine. It was that bad, and it still is that bad. I was hearing horror stories with Emotion Engine, and I'm hearing more horror stories with Cell. Its not as bad with the 360 because Microsoft documents nearly everything and they have more people working with the game dev's on technical issues.

Sony has IBM on their team now to help handle the software side.
 

liquid51

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Oct 14, 2005
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these arguments are always so funny to me. Once the graphics have stopped causing jaws to drop (which doesn't take too long), console gamers will start digging for the best games, and there'll be plenty of uber beautiful rendering of some very real garbage. Then there will be the games that blow your mind because their concepts and implementation are beyond anything that pretty graphics can offer.

I'll buy a 360 for Halo 3 because I need to finish the series (hopefully it'll be the finish). I might buy a ps3 for gran turismo, but only because I have a retarded passion for the game (which hasn't changed a whole lot since 3). But, I will buy a Wii because I know that at least in mario, zelda, and samus there will be some fantastic games valued for more than aesthetics. C'mon, how freaking cool was it when Samus became infected with a virus that required you to reboot her suit? Genius...

edit: at $500-600 a pop, I'll pass on GT

although I must concede. Apon backing out of the forum I remembered the title of the forum I was perusing. So... er... continue!