Wierd thought about video cards?

[RockGuitarDude]

This is just an interesting thought. Since nowadays the GPU is so important in many systems today, why haven't we just eliminated the GPU being in a slot and instead a socket? I was thinking about it today and imagined a board with 2 sockets, one for CPU, one for GPU, and each had its own ram slots a well. Seems like a perfectly valid idea as they would be able to give it rediculous bandwidth similar to that between the CPU and RAM.

 

[Yanagi]

Well, why? It wouldnt give any more performance since were not using an excess bantwidth nowadays any. heck even AGP 8X is overkill. and can you imagine 2 big@ss coolers on one single atx board? Hehe, while its an interesting idea i see alot of drawbacks from it aswell.

EDIT: BTW assuming you play guitar (from your name). What kind of music do you play? And what equipment do you use? I'm in my 6th year now playing along real nicely. dont have a band though. Seems i cannot find the time :/

 

[Ryoga]

Video cards are essentially fully matured daughterboard computer systems. They have all components of a PC system: central processor which is essentially fully programmable (the GPU), dedicated RAM, input, and output. Note that console gaming systems generally run only on a GPU; they have no CPU in the traditional sense.

In the future, it is very possible that when running in 2D desktop mode that the video card will act in the same manner that the old math coprocessors did on the 8086, 8088, 80286, and 80386. All those extra GPU clock cycles will be put to use, since the GPU is several times more efficient at math computations than the CPU is.

http://www.gpgpu.org/ (General-Purpose computation on GPUs)

 

[wfbberzerker]

you'd also need to make room on the mobo for the gpu's memory (as you stated), as well as room for any other things the gpu needs (there are a myriad of other microchips on a video card, and there is often a tv tuner). basically, there isn't enough room, and there isn't enough standardization among the video card makers to allow for this.

 

[RockGuitarDude]

Originally posted by: Yanagi
Well, why? It wouldnt give any more performance since were not using an excess bantwidth nowadays any. heck even AGP 8X is overkill. and can you imagine 2 big@ss coolers on one single atx board? Hehe, while its an interesting idea i see alot of drawbacks from it aswell.

EDIT: BTW assuming you play guitar (from your name). What kind of music do you play? And what equipment do you use? I'm in my 6th year now playing along real nicely. dont have a band though. Seems i cannot find the time :/

I play alternative/progressive/hard rock (I guess). Working on my band's first album. We have enough to fill at least 2 CDs though so now we are just trying to get our stuff together. Recording is a bitch tho...

 

[RockGuitarDude]

I don't think a standard should be a concern. In the dark ages, the PCI slot was an agreed upon standard. AGP became an agreed upon standard. All graphics card makers would adapt to whatever standard they are given just like they are about to adapt to the PCI Express standard.

 

[wfbberzerker]

Originally posted by: RockGuitarDude
I don't think a standard should be a concern. In the dark ages, the PCI slot was an agreed upon standard. AGP became an agreed upon standard. All graphics card makers would adapt to whatever standard they are given just like they are about to adapt to the PCI Express standard.

what im saying is that, for example, different video cards use different speeds of the memory. this alone would create a problem. also, it would make upgradeability a huge problem, because when you wanted a new gpu, your motherboard probably wouldn't support the new one (in terms of again memory speed, as well as other requirements of the new gpu)

 

[RockGuitarDude]

Well, obviously, they would provide enough bandwidth for longterm use. Look what they are doing with pci express. They are doubling the agp bandwidth. They don't need it now, its just to keep up with future needs. The same ideology could be implemented in this.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Integrating separate devices will always result in a compromise for the lesser of the components. Keep in mind a GPU has faster memory and a wider memory bus. There simply isn't enough room on the motherboard for two entirely different memory subsystems. Video cards have grown way too complex over the last 4 years. Trying to integrate the 256bit bus between the gpu and memory would be virtually impossible on your average sized motherboard - not to mention issues with signaling and heat.


Convergance is the holy grail of consumer electronics so it wouldn't suprise me if it happened eventually, but its simply not feasible for high-end solutions. Now if you want something slower, just look at current integrated chipsets from Ati, nVidia, and Intel. They don't hold a candle to a discreet add-in card.

edit: Oh, and if you're asking. Yes, that was a wierd thought.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: KnightBreed
Integrating separate devices will always result in a compromise for the lesser of the components. Keep in mind a GPU has faster memory and a wider memory bus. There simply isn't enough room on the motherboard for two entirely different memory subsystems. Video cards have grown way too complex over the last 4 years. Trying to integrate the 256bit bus between the gpu and memory would be virtually impossible on your average sized motherboard - not to mention issues with signaling and heat.


Convergance is the holy grail of consumer electronics so it wouldn't suprise me if it happened eventually, but its simply not feasible for high-end solutions. Now if you want something slower, just look at current integrated chipsets from Ati, nVidia, and Intel. They don't hold a candle to a discreet add-in card.

edit: Oh, and if you're asking. Yes, that was a wierd thought.

You say a 256-bit bus between GPU and memory woul dbe a problem.
Yes it would.
Not all graphics cards have, or even support, 256-bit memory buses.
You would need different types of memory buses (RV350/360 is a 64/128-bit supporting core, R300/R350/360 supports both 256-bit and 128-bit) and support for GDDR, GDDR2 and GDDR3 memory, which would be impossible really.

There would be more cost for a motherboard, so those who wanted a budget option couldn't have one.
Highe end graphics cards CAN cost $100 to make, so add $50 to the cost of a motherboard and see if anyone wants to buy it, then they have to get their GPU and memory for the graphics.

It's not doable. GPU's need too much memory bandwidth and are too different. Sure, they could become more standardised, but it would be complicated and it's not needed.

 

[CU]

I think room is the biggest problem also. Although they could make generic video card board that plugged into a agp / pci express slot that had a gpu socket and ram slots. It would be just like a small MB. If the new gpu used a different socket or needed a new kind of ram you would have to chanage the card just like you do with MB's. You could use slower or faster ram it would not depend on the gpu just like system ram speed does not depend on the cpu only the kind of ram the MB supports. It could work. I think they should atleast allow you to add ram to video cards like they use to be. I would love to get 128 meg 6800 NU or GT and later add another 128 meg to it.

 

[CombatChuk]

I'd hate to replace my motherboard if DDR3 came out...The problem is that diff video cards different power requirements and possibly different sockets. That would also be true with video ram, since if you put them in a DIMM configuration you'd have to worry about pin layout and voltage requirement.

 

[Sunner]

The motherboards would be insanely expensive as well.
A very fast(as in 500 MHz+) and very wide memory bus isn't exactly cheap, especially not when it's got to be routed on a board full of other traces, PCI-E, main memory, north/south bridge, etc etc.

 

[CU]

Originally posted by: CombatChuk
I'd hate to replace my motherboard if DDR3 came out...The problem is that diff video cards different power requirements and possibly different sockets. That would also be true with video ram, since if you put them in a DIMM configuration you'd have to worry about pin layout and voltage requirement.

If you wanted to use DDR3 you will have to replace your MB because chances are it want fit in a DDR2 slot. All the things you mentioned as problems are problems with MB's but they seem to sale and work well. The DIMM vlotage is the only thing MB's don't really have to worry about (some ram do like higher voltage than others), but even then just make the video board able to adjust the voltage. Most MB's allow this already. The cost of a vidoe card built in parts like this would cost more, but it will be easier to upgrade. Some people would like it and some wouldn't. Just like some build there PC and some buy prebuilt.

 

[PhoenixOrion]

Originally posted by: RockGuitarDude
This is just an interesting thought. Since nowadays the GPU is so important in many systems today, why haven't we just eliminated the GPU being in a slot and instead a socket? I was thinking about it today and imagined a board with 2 sockets, one for CPU, one for GPU, and each had its own ram slots a well. Seems like a perfectly valid idea as they would be able to give it rediculous bandwidth similar to that between the CPU and RAM.

Already in existence: integrated video on select motherboards.

 

[RockGuitarDude]

its really not that different folks. A slot and a socket aren't much different. All the things required would be on the chip. Its the same thing that is implemented now except with a more modular approach. While its true that many other things are on the card besides the core, there is no reason all these things couldn't be integrated onto the chip. Processors were in slot form for a while. I have a Pentium 233MHz right in front of me. While it was implemented for different reasons, there was no problem going between sockets and slots. The only difference is that this idea would go from slot to socket and that the memory bandwidth with be along motherboard traces to ram slots which would be upgradeable. You could always provide additional traces so when a newer type of memory comes out and needs it, they will be there to use.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I've said this many times. I believe that it would be better to move it to a socket. Also, give it its own dedicated memory slots, so that you could determine the amount of video ram without having to upgrade the entire card.

I just feel it would be better. I mean wouldn't it be faster since you could have direct bus between the gpu and cpu instead of having to go with a middleman southbridge chip (correct me if this is wrong, I think its the SB that manages the PCI buses).

 

[CU]

You could use a slot solution like now and still have a direct bus to the cpu they just have to design it that way. Thier is no need to move it to the MB. This would only cause you to upgrade your MB more often than you do now, because even now cpu's don't use the same socket all the time or have other differences. If you add a modular video card to the MB you will have the same problem put now in to places the cpu and gpu. If it was designed like a small MB that was plugged into a slot like PCI express then you could still customize your video card and the rest of system by upgrade different parts of it, but if you wanted to do a major upgrade to the video card you could without changing the MB and the other way around.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: RockGuitarDude
its really not that different folks. A slot and a socket aren't much different. All the things required would be on the chip. Its the same thing that is implemented now except with a more modular approach. While its true that many other things are on the card besides the core, there is no reason all these things couldn't be integrated onto the chip. Processors were in slot form for a while. I have a Pentium 233MHz right in front of me. While it was implemented for different reasons, there was no problem going between sockets and slots. The only difference is that this idea would go from slot to socket and that the memory bandwidth with be along motherboard traces to ram slots which would be upgradeable. You could always provide additional traces so when a newer type of memory comes out and needs it, they will be there to use.

Again, it would be way to expensive.
Cramming another few hundred traces for a 256 Mbit memory bus, and however many layers the motherboard would have to be to cope with a 500+ MHz signal from the memory.

Not to mention, you'd be stuck with the same generation GPU's, since a newer generation will need additional pins for data and power, so in that sense, it would become less modular.

There are alot of shortfalls to this line of thinking.

 

[RockGuitarDude]

Originally posted by: RockGuitarDude
You could always provide additional traces so when a newer type of memory comes out and needs it, they will be there to use.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: RockGuitarDude

Originally posted by: RockGuitarDude
You could always provide additional traces so when a newer type of memory comes out and needs it, they will be there to use.

And you'd need to be clairvoyant to know the electrical specifications, the number of pins, etc etc, every new generation of memory has changed all of these, not to mention the slot itself, how would you handle that?

And again, the motherboard would be insanely expensive, having to pack all of those traces, and probably 9-10 layers or more to handle signal integrity.

It simply isn't viable for alot of reasons, at least not now or in the near future.

 

[sandorski]

This kinda thing was considered way back when(96ish), but it was abondoned. The biggest problem is that video cards are more than just a GPU with Ram, there are numerous other components necessary for TV Out, Dual VGA, and other things. Add in necessary Capacitators, Resistors, etc. Then setting it up so that it doesn't interfere with something else and something else doesn't interfere with it and you've got yourself an engineering nighmare. At the vary least Motherboards would need to get bigger, maybe even need a new Form Factor.

Other reasons are Cost and Video innovation.

Cost: For starters, as already mentioned, Motherboards would cost more. Secondly, the User would have to buy his/her own ram, ram that is often quite expensive(videocard manufacturers get Bulk discounts, Users don't).

Innovation: This is the biggest reason to not do it. ATI, NVidia, and Others would have to design their GPU's to function within tight parameters and even pass on Improved Ram types or increased RAM capacity. If they want to do something that required More Power, Cleaner Power, or even just another Channel(not sure if this is a correct term or not)of Power, they're borked.

Nah, in some ways it would be nice, but overall it's a very bad idea.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: RockGuitarDude
I don't think a standard should be a concern. In the dark ages, the PCI slot was an agreed upon standard. AGP became an agreed upon standard. All graphics card makers would adapt to whatever standard they are given just like they are about to adapt to the PCI Express standard.

So we could have a standard. All we'd need then is for the videocard industry to stagnate. Look at how fast the industry progressed - TNT came out in 1998, and was amazing because it could do two texels per clock. Now how many can we do - 4 pixels per clock, 16 texels per pixel, for 64 texels per clock? 6 years, and just that has improved drastically, moreso in recent years with the nVidia-ATi rivalry. Geforce came out and everything went nuts.
That's just the GPU - the RAM used, and the interfaces sped up considerably. The RAM used got so fast and cheap that one of the big deals of AGP (system memory access for textures) was rendered too slow to give acceptable framerates.

End result - you'd probably need to upgrade your motherboard every time you just wanted a video card upgrade. Otherwise you might have to link up a 9800 Pro GPU to 32MB of SDR DRAM over a 64-bit interface.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

The OP needs to take a Computer Engineering course to understand at the moment this isn't feasible. There just isn't enough room. It's like saying why don't we just move all the suburbs into new york city so noone needs to drive long distances? There just isn't enough room. Space is a major primium on mobos.

 

[JBT]

I don't know if you have seen the MASSIVE size of the new video cards but my GT is HUGE!!! itslike have the size of my motherboard. That motherboard I bought was 100 bucks pretty cheap... now add a videocard to it??? that card has a MSRP of 399... I bought it for much less but still. 500 dollar motherboards?!?!??! yeah right...