Why would any liberal support the current health care reform bill?

[theamericans075]

Ok, so the whole idea behind heath care reform is to A) insure people and B) cut down costs, right? This bill does A but doesn't do crap for B. As a UHC advocate and hardcore liberal, I have no idea why anyone on the left would support this.

1) The bill funnels trillions of dollars straight from the taxpayer into the pockets of insurance companies.

2) There is not a single sentence in this bill that requires insurance companies to restrict their rates in exchange for this giant pay-off

3) While the tax credits that are the bulk of the cost of this bill do help the poor afford insurance, there is nothing that will fix the underlying problem of costs spinning out of control

4) It couldn't be further from UHC

5) The republican plan literally does more to control costs

 

[Patranus]

4) It couldn't be further from UHC

Wrong.

It overwhelms the system creating an artificial crisis forcing the government into considering UHC.

 

[theamericans075]

All it does is give insurance companies more clients. The health care crisis already exists, won't be fixed by this, and would easily be solved by UHC, as it has been in every other first world country.


I don't know what's more frustrating, the fact that the majority of Obama's policies are center-right corporatism, or that the right thinks that it's socialism.

 

[Craig234]

Fair questions - the bill is too friendly to the insurance companies. We should have had single payer IMO.

But there are a variety of benefits, especially the rule against pre-existing conditions, something lacking in the Republicans' positions.

You might want to check out Howard Dean, who opposed the Senate bill but supports passing the Senate bill with the Obama reconciliation measures.

On the other hand, you might agree with Dennis Kucinich who says it's not worth passing without a public option - something 40 of 50 needed Senators have signed.

There's always the politics, too, that Republicans are expected to be rewarded, which makes no sense, if they can obstruct meausres including ones the public strongly wants.

It's easy to attack any time politics comes into play, but disengenuous to pretend it isn't a lot of the time.

 

[theamericans075]

Even the strongest public option considered was an utter joke, it was practically required to cost more than private insurance.

 

[PrinceofWands]

While I'm not exactly a liberal, I totally agree with you. I have written letters and made calls till I'm near worn down to nothing opposing this piece of crap. I realize that there's a need for compromise, but this isn't it. Not even close.

They need to take everything they've done so far, burn it, bury the ashes in the center of the salt flats, have an old priest and a young priest exorcise the spirit of it, drink till they all forget the memory of it, and start all over again from scratch.

 

[Patranus]

There's always the politics, too, that Republicans are expected to be rewarded, which makes no sense, if they can obstruct meausres including ones the public strongly wants.

You still haven't answered my question as to what you are smoking.

If you really think that the American people "strongly want" a public option then whatever you are smoking must be really strong.

 

[Slick5150]

All it does is give insurance companies more clients. The health care crisis already exists, won't be fixed by this, and would easily be solved by UHC, as it has been in every other first world country.


I don't know what's more frustrating, the fact that the majority of Obama's policies are center-right corporatism, or that the right thinks that it's socialism.

This was my exact point to someone the other day. The current proposal is something I would have expected from the Repulicans in the 90s in response to Clinton's proposal. It's so far from a "socialistic" approach it's essentially laughable when people call it that.

UHC is the answer, as it is in every other country, but this bill is nowhere near that.

 

[PrinceofWands]

You still haven't answered my question as to what you are smoking.

If you really think that the American people "strongly want" a public option then whatever you are smoking must be really strong.

Most of the polls showed that they did, just not of the form being offered.

 

[theamericans075]

If you really think that the American people "strongly want" a public option then whatever you are smoking must be really strong.

Poll after poll really supports this. Additionally, when people are explained to them what is actually present in the bill, they have a slim majority of support.

 

[Patranus]

Poll after poll really supports this. Additionally, when people are explained to them what is actually present in the bill, they have a slim majority of support.

If you mean that 2/3 of the population are against the Democrats than I guess you are right.........

 

[PrinceofWands]

If you mean that 2/3 of the population are against the Democrats than I guess you are right.........

Just remember that being against what one major party is doing doesn't mean you're for the other major party.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

I agree it is pretty much a turd of a bill, completely neutered by corporatists but
the fact that it mandates and greatly increases coverage and eliminates exclusions and denials makes it better than the status quo and worth passing.

But lets face it, nothing short of revolution was going to fix this thing in one pass. The corporate powers that profit so handsomely from our current system are simply too powerful to allow it.

And I do believe if we can accomplish this first step, that further controls and restrictions will follow. I really don't see this being a huge handout to the insurance industry as many are now claiming, and the isurance industry doesn't see it as a windfall or they wouldn't be going all out to defeat it.

 

[boomerang]

Ok, so the whole idea behind heath care reform is to A) insure people and B) cut down costs, right? This bill does A but doesn't do crap for B. As a UHC advocate and hardcore liberal, I have no idea why anyone on the left would support this.

1) The bill funnels trillions of dollars straight from the taxpayer into the pockets of insurance companies.

2) There is not a single sentence in this bill that requires insurance companies to restrict their rates in exchange for this giant pay-off

3) While the tax credits that are the bulk of the cost of this bill do help the poor afford insurance, there is nothing that will fix the underlying problem of costs spinning out of control

4) It couldn't be further from UHC

5) The republican plan literally does more to control costs

Your task now is to let your elected representatives know your wishes. Make sure they are aware that you do not support this bill in its current form. The more of us that do, the better the chances are that a bill crafted by both parties will be good enough to garner the support of the people of this country.

Both parties and many of us here (with different ideologies) agree that health care reform is needed. I don't want this abomination signed into law. This attitude of putting anything through just to be able to say "we did it" is wrong.

These butt heads have been talking about it for a year and in the meantime little effort has been put into creating jobs. Health care is great, but it doesn't put food on the table or boost the economy.

Misguided thinking.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

How hard are we all going to get reamed if this doesn't pass now? Insurance companies won't even bother with lube anymore. If this falls through, reform, any reform, is off the table for God knows how long.

 

[boomerang]

How hard are we all going to get reamed if this doesn't pass now? Insurance companies won't even bother with lube anymore. If this falls through, reform, any reform, is off the table for God knows how long.

There is no reason in the world it has to be off the table. If it is, it will be because of thick headed pride. True bi-partisanship needs to be restored in Washington. It was not always like this.

We have far more serious problems on the horizon than health care reform. Washington needs to learn to work together. If this impending financial meltdown doesn't get dealt with, anyone wearing a suit in DC will be fair game. It's going to get as ugly as it can get and real quick too.

I can't help but wonder if that's why so many have chosen not to run for re-election.

 

[wwswimming]

first off, i oppose the bill. it takes a system that stinks for middle class & poor people & makes it worse.

1) The bill funnels trillions of dollars straight from the taxpayer into the pockets of insurance companies.

well, more like $100's of Billions.

2) There is not a single sentence in this bill that requires insurance companies to restrict their rates in exchange for this giant pay-off

i think there is, actually. some price-limiting language.

then again, it's 2000+ pages which i can't read.

3) While the tax credits that are the bulk of the cost of this bill do help the poor afford insurance, there is nothing that will fix the underlying problem of costs spinning out of control

true. they're turning the system over to the same organizations that screwed up American health care. the US had great health care in the 1960's & 1970's. when i got tonsillitis & had to stay a few days at the hospital, my father didn't have insurance - and it didn't bankrupt him. on a chemical engineer's salary.

4) It couldn't be further from UHC

speaking of UHC, i can't help but wonder about putting some effort into expanding the VA.

why not just let everybody go to the VA (Vet Admin. hospital) & charge rates like -
$100 for a doctor's appointment - cash.

&, instead of vouchers for the HMO's, give poor people vouchers they can spend at the VA.

and limit appointments. e.g. max. 5 appointments a year. aka rationing.

the part i like the most - let Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid go to the VA with us. so they get the same health care plan as everybody else.


5) The republican plan literally does more to control costs[/QUOTE]

maybe, haven't read it.


but if you REALLY want to know " Why would any liberal support the current health care reform bill?", check out this website -
http://www.waccobb.net/forums/

most of the people there would call themselves liberal. most of them seem to support Obama-care.

i think it's because they are motivated by the feeling that we have to help the people that can't afford health insurance. that old liberal "gotta help the poor people" thing.

PLUS - selective blindness. they COMPLETELY overlook that the system is being turned over to the same entities (HMO's, Big Pharma) that broke a good system in the first place.

PLUS - they are tricked by the fact that it's the "Democrats". the same people that support their other lifestyle choices - supporting gay rights & abortion. so there's an element of supporting the "home team" ... even if the home team is rotten - corrupt.

 

[Zebo]

Only thing I can think is when premiums shoot up 300% for normal people and the working poor *still* can't afford co-pays and meds even with govt paying thier mandated premium there will be a revolt to get real healthcare reform. Sounds weird I know.

 

[sportage]

THis "funnel" you refer to is in making "all" people take out healthcare that "THEY" pay for, instead of the uninsured coming into the ER for care that "YOU" end up paying for.
Unless you enjoy paying for some strangers ER room visit??? Maybe you do?

Also... reasons to support this bill on reform:
Closing the Bush "donut hole" that rapes seniors via drug costs.
Eliminating "pre existing" clauses now imposed by all insurance companies.
Eliminating lifetime limit caps imposed by every insurance company.
Stopping the pratice of Kicking one off insurance should they become very ill.

Those four reasons alone are more than plenty to support THIS bill.
And..btw... when Americans are polled on the "issues" of the bill, they are in favor of this bill. THAT is a FACT!
Another fact... this bill "is not" some "take over" of insurance by the government.
The public option IS NOT in the current bill, incase you havent noticed.

 

[Patranus]

THis "funnel" you refer to is in making "all" people take out healthcare that "THEY" pay for, instead of the uninsured coming into the ER for care that "YOU" end up paying for.
Unless you enjoy paying for some strangers ER room visit??? Maybe you do?

If I pay for their ER visit via my insurance premiums or via my tax dollars what difference does it make?

 

[Zebo]

first off

PLUS - they are tricked by the fact that it's the "Democrats". the same people that support their other lifestyle choices - supporting gay rights & abortion. so there's an element of supporting the "home team" ... even if the home team is rotten - corrupt.

That's a good part of it as well.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

There is no reason in the world it has to be off the table. If it is, it will be because of thick headed pride. True bi-partisanship needs to be restored in Washington. It was not always like this.

But it's obviously like this now and continuing to get worse. Dems are ineffective, and Reps don't give a shit. who exactly is going to get this back on the table if it fails now?

We have far more serious problems on the horizon than health care reform. Washington needs to learn to work together. If this impending financial meltdown doesn't get dealt with, anyone wearing a suit in DC will be fair game. It's going to get as ugly as it can get and real quick too.

More serious problems if you aren't one of the unlucky many who can't get/afford/are dropped by your health insurance and are staring down the barrel of a disease maybe.

I can't help but wonder if that's why so many have chosen not to run for re-election.

I hope it's from the growing voter resentment of incumbents, but I'll take anything that means a higher turnover rate in DC.

 

[wwswimming]

Only thing I can think is when premiums shoot up 300% for normal people and the working poor *still* can't afford co-pays and meds even with govt paying thier mandated premium there will be a revolt to get real healthcare reform. Sounds weird I know.

people in San Diego can get very decent care just by crossing the border and going to a clinic in Tijuana that the more affluent Mexicans go to.

i've done it myself, it costs about $40.

( some of those women Mexican doctors are Tanta Linda )

the doctor i saw last time i went there, i didn't have too much time. i tried to find out more about "how it works" - e.g. if i had a broken arm, or appendicitis, where would i go if i lived in Tijuana ? she just said that Tijuana had one of Mexico's best medical schools.

i would like to find out, what clinic do you go to if you have appendicitis, and want to have a competent doctor. how much does it cost, etc.

what it boils down to is, you pay cash, and it costs a lot less. the doctors don't make as much. it works so much better than in the states, it provides another model for what works.

also - medications in Tijuana are about 1/10 the cost in the US.


in other words - to deal with HMO cost - get rid of HMO's.

to reduce drug costs - let people buy their drugs from pharmacies in Mexico until American pharmacies' get lower wholesale costs from the drug companies.

and if you get rid of HMO's - you have people walking up the clinic, and paying cash. the buildings aren't as fancy, and the doctors don't charge anywhere near as much, because they wouldn't get patients.


so ObamaCare is not about improving health care. it is about goosing GNP numbers and providing business for HMO's & pharmaceutical companies - by mandating that 30 million or so independent Americans become their new customers.

that is not a free market. it's more like Fascism.

 

[glenn1]

[/b]

This was my exact point to someone the other day. The current proposal is something I would have expected from the Repulicans in the 90s in response to Clinton's proposal. It's so far from a "socialistic" approach it's essentially laughable when people call it that.

UHC is the answer, as it is in every other country, but this bill is nowhere near that.

There's very little to commend this bill to anyone but a partisan who simply wanted to take the credit for passing something, anything. Honestly, if the current healthcare bill was being pushed by a Republican congress and president instead of Obama & co., Democrats would be just as opposed as (R)s are now. They'd blast it for its inefficiency, relatively low coverage rates for currently uninsured, and just on general principle that it was a Republican bill. Heck, Democrats made a big stink about Medicare part D and freebie drugs for seniors was something they supported!

 

[Zebo]

so ObamaCare is not about improving health care. it is about goosing GNP numbers and providing business for HMO's & pharmaceutical companies - by mandating that 30 million or so independent Americans become their new customers.

that is not a free market. it's more like Fascism.

I said essentially the same in another HC thread last night. Not sure why you bring up Mexico - it's certainly not a country we should emulate were 20 families own 95% of the wealth and everyone else is fucked. Why not look at systems which work and insure everyone for half or less than half price. You don't have to answer I know the answer.