• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Why Windows Vista WILL suck..

IGBT

Lifer
Text

First, let me say, I've been running Vista myself for quite some time. Next to me at this very moment is a Gateway 835GM. Under the hood, it has an Intel Pentium D 2.8GHz dual-core processor, an Intel 945G chipset, 1GB DDR2 (double data rate) DRAM, a 250GB SATA hard drive, and built-in Intel GMA (graphics media accelerator) 950 graphics. That's a fairly powerful machine. Which is a good thing, because it's the only PC in my office of 20 PCs that's got enough oomph to run the Windows Vista February CTP (Community Technology Preview) build 5308 without driving me into fits of rage.

Mind you, it's not enough machine for Vista. I could run any Linux with all the bells and whistles on it without a problem. But, even though this system meets Intel's recommendations for a Vista-capable Intel Professional Business Platform, it still doesn't have the graphics horsepower needed to carry off Vista's much ballyhooed three-dimensional Aero Glass interface.

My point is, though, that while I write a lot about Linux, and I prefer it, my real specialty is that I know operating systems of all types and sorts, including Vista.

So when I say Vista sucks, well, I know what I'm talking about.

"Suck" is a relative term, though. Vista will be better than XP, which has easily been Microsoft's best desktop operating system to date.

However, Vista also requires far more hardware oomph than previous Windows systems. I'd say Intel's recommendations are pretty much a minimum for Vista. I would only add that if you expect to see the fancy desktop, you need to invest in, say, an ATI Radeon XPress 200, an Nvidia nForce4, or a high-end graphics card.

The truth is that very, very few people are going to be upgrading their existing systems to Vista. To make it work well, you're really going to need a new computer. If you didn't buy your PC in 2006, I wouldn't even try to run Vista on it.

OK, so the first reason that Vista sucks is that, no matter what version you get, it's likely to be expensive. No matter what Microsoft ends up charging for it, the only way most people are likely to be running it is when they get a new PC.

Now, let's see what my colleagues at ExtremeTech have to say in Vista's defense ...

Vista is much safer and more secure. "The whole kernel has been reorganized and rewritten to help prevent software from affecting the system in unsavory ways."

Well, yes, this is certainly what Microsoft would have to do to make it truly secure. I've say that myself. Unfortunately, while Microsoft has worked hard on improving Vista's security, it's still pretty much the same old rickety kernel underneath it.

Need proof? In January, Microsoft shipped the first security patch for Vista. It was for the WMF (Windows Metafile) hole. You know, the one, that my security guru friend Larry Seltzer called, "one of those careless things Microsoft did years ago with little or no consideration for the security consequences."

Good job of cleaning up the core operating system, Microsoft!

Of course, Linux never had this kind of garbage to clean up in the first place.

The ExtremeTech guys also say that Microsoft has done a good job of cleaning up Windows' use of memory management and heaps. They're right about that.

What they don't mention is that Linux and Mac OS X have both done that kind of thing well for years. They also don't mention that for an application to actually get the most from these improvements, it will need to be rewritten. So, if you want to get the most from Vista, be sure to set some money aside for new applications as well as a new PC. You'll need it.

They also praise SuperFetch, Microsoft's new combination application pre-fetching technique and hyper-active virtual memory manager. Intelligent pre-fetching is a fine idea for boosting performance. You've been able to use it in any application written with the open-source GCC for years. Microsoft's execution of it, however, has one of the biggest "What were they thinking of?" mistakes I've seen in a long time.

You see, with SuperFetch you can a USB 2.0-based flash drive as a fetch buffer between your RAM and your hard disk. Let me spell that out for you. Vista will put part of your running application on a device that can be kicked off, knocked out, or that your dog can carry away as a chew toy. Do you see the problem here? Me too!

I also understand that Vista will have improved TCP/IP networking. It's nice to know that they've finally done something with that open-source BSD code that's the basis of their TCP/IP network protocol.

What ExtremeTech doesn't mention, though, is that Microsoft is also planning on making it so that you can use IPSec (IP security protocol) for internal network security. This is another of their "What were they thinking of?" moments.

IPSec works fine for VPNs (virtual private networks). But, as John Pescatore, an analyst at Gartner Inc., said about this scheme, "Once you try to encrypt internal communications, your network architecture breaks." He's got that right.

Next up, they say wonderful things about Home Premium Vista having Media Center capability being built into it. Maybe I'm just a little confused here, but after looking at the feature sets, the only thing I see that's changed here is that they'll be calling the next media-enabled Windows "Home Premium Vista" instead of "Media Center Vista."

They also praise this version for having CableCard support, with the result that you'll be able to record HD (high definition broadcasts) from cable instead of being stuck with OTA (over the air) HDTV, without turning your entertainment room into an electronics lab.

Excuse me, but that's not because Microsoft is being innovative. It's because they are still not shipping CableCard cards for PCs. Come the day they finally ship -- and I'm betting the ATI OCCUR makes it out first -- I suspect MythTV and the other open-source PVR (personal video recorder) projects will be right there.

The ExtremeTech crew also has nice things to say about Vista's audio support. Mea culpa, it is better than anything else out there. So, Linux desktop designers, it's time to get cracking on audio support. Vista's still won't be out, at the earliest, until the fourth quarter of this year, and that gives you plenty of time to play catch up.

DirectX10, which is mostly used for game graphics and in the aforementioned Aero, is also much improved. It's also, however, completely different from DirectX9. Current games, current graphic cards, won't be able to do anything with it, which is why Vista also supports DirectX 9.

Here again, I'll give the Microsoft guys come credit. DirecX10 is a big improvement for the gamers. It's still not going to make your PC the equal of a dedicated game console, however.

The folks from ExtremeTech also like the fact that Vista will have many more built-in applications. Isn't this why Microsoft got into trouble with the Department of Justice a while back? Isn't this the kind of thing that has both South Korea and the European Union raking them over the coals? Why, yes. Yes, it is.

Be that as it may, as I sit here looking at my SUSE 10 Linux desktop, I can't help but notice that I have, for free, every software application I could ever want. Advantage: Linux.

At the end of the story, the ExtremeTech crew 'fesses up that "We don't know that it's going to be great just yet." True. And, I don't know that it's going to suck yet, either.

Expensive? Yes. Awful? We'll see.

What I do know, is that I really don't see a thing, not one single thing, that will make the still undelivered Vista significantly better than the Linux or the Mac OS X desktops I have in front of me today.


-- Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols
 
Oh, wait, you didn't write it yourself.

Well, yes, this is certainly what Microsoft would have to do to make it truly secure. I've say that myself. Unfortunately, while Microsoft has worked hard on improving Vista's security, it's still pretty much the same old rickety kernel underneath it.
Of course, one can never know for sure how much is rewritten, I wouldn't take claims from others at face value, and most of us are not interested enough to sell our soul to see the code.

The ExtremeTech crew also has nice things to say about Vista's audio support. Mea culpa, it is better than anything else out there. So, Linux desktop designers, it's time to get cracking on audio support.
It's not the audio support that is the problem per se but rather the middleware that would abstract the setup of ALSA. Advanced audio (e.g., surround sound) is possible, but it is not readily accessable. In general, there is too much black magic involved for ALSA.

At the end of the story, the ExtremeTech crew 'fesses up that "We don't know that it's going to be great just yet." True. And, I don't know that it's going to suck yet, either.
The truth is often somewhere in the middle. This time is likely not an exception.
 
The only thing I could think of reading your post was, "so, this guy really has never done an OS alpha/beta program before." Guess what, W2K sucked as did XP. NT 3.1 really sucked (Novell beta driver install deleted the file system - reinstall NT using the 15 or so floppies). It took me 6 mths working with Madge Networks and Novell to get a reliable NetBIOS, NetBEUI, IPX, and IP stack working on OS/2 2.0. And a lot of that was AFTER GA. I do have to admit, I liked Win95 beta as the network stack was easy to configure compared to Windows 3.11b (the menued autoexec.bat/config.sys with a Win tool that swapped out system.ini settings for different network cards.) One of the XP SP2 betas killed USB and Firewire device transfers. Another one turned on DEP for both system and app level that rendered the system useless until you could finally turn it off on a set the supported it. That was patched in a hurry (not MS' fault - buggy apps were doing lots of things the DEP stopped.)

And never make performance decisions on any OS beta. Every module can have a huge code path because of all the debug hooks and watchdogs that might be implemented.

I have not done any Linux betas, but I do remember a lot of grousing about device drivers (just like XP 64).

It is just a beta thing.

Oh, and the WMF bug... Not so much OS as module. Consider that the attacker only got rights of the user. A real OS bug usually allows the user to get System in the Kernel ring and is an another good reason to move devices up to User level.
 
It gets hard when you are used to having a 30% profit year after year and then it drops toward 20%. So you write a new OS.
Dell, HP, et al are happy because they sell more hardware.
Adobe, Norton, et al are happy.
We are happy because we get shiny fruit on our desktop.
Life goes on.
 
Mind you, it's not enough machine for Vista. I could run any Linux with all the bells and whistles on it without a problem. But, even though this system meets Intel's recommendations for a Vista-capable Intel Professional Business Platform, it still doesn't have the graphics horsepower needed to carry off Vista's much ballyhooed three-dimensional Aero Glass interface.
It's a beta.

Of course, Linux never had this kind of garbage to clean up in the first place.
Right, there have never been any kernel vulns in Linux. Sure.

IPSec works fine for VPNs (virtual private networks). But, as John Pescatore, an analyst at Gartner Inc., said about this scheme, "Once you try to encrypt internal communications, your network architecture breaks." He's got that right.
No he doesn't. Microsoft has been doing this internally for years now. There are plenty of other networks doing the same thing. Google for domain isolation and ipsec.

I suspect MythTV and the other open-source PVR (personal video recorder) projects will be right there.
Highly unlikely. The Microsoft Cablecard annoucement is the result of years of negotiations with Cablelabs and content distributors.

Expensive? Yes
Hmm, I haven't seen any pricing yet.

What I do know, is that I really don't see a thing, not one single thing, that will make the still undelivered Vista significantly better than the Linux or the Mac OS X desktops I have in front of me today.
Whoopdedoo. Nobody cares about non-existent market share.
 
There are some points that I agree with however others need addressing:
built-in Intel GMA (graphics media accelerator) 950 graphics. That's a fairly powerful machine.
I would not consider Intel GMA "fairly powerful"; it's a low-end onboard video chipset. If you really want to take advantage of any 3D aplications (including the Vista GUI) you're going to need a better GPU.
The truth is that very, very few people are going to be upgrading their existing systems to Vista.
I agree, but that's to be expected. The vast majority of Vista deployments will be along with new PCs (which was the same for XP).
it's still pretty much the same old rickety kernel underneath it.

Need proof? In January, Microsoft shipped the first security patch for Vista. It was for the WMF (Windows Metafile) hole.
I'd hardly call that proof that it "has the same rickety kernel underneath" :roll:
You see, with SuperFetch you can a USB 2.0-based flash drive as a fetch buffer between your RAM and your hard disk. Let me spell that out for you. Vista will put part of your running application on a device that can be kicked off, knocked out, or that your dog can carry away as a chew toy. Do you see the problem here? Me too!
I'm certainly no SuperFetch expert; but as I understand it the memory usage on it is limited to preloading components so that they can run faster as you execute them. You wont loose any data and the system will not become unstable if they are suddenly removed (your system will just have to make a trip to the HD the next time you want to load one of those components).
IPSec works fine for VPNs (virtual private networks). But, as John Pescatore, an analyst at Gartner Inc., said about this scheme, "Once you try to encrypt internal communications, your network architecture breaks." He's got that right.
Nobody has suggested to encrypt all internal communications with IPSec (in fact a lot of the documentation specifically suggest against it). However there are some instances where encrypting internal traffic with IPSec is a good thing.

Example: We run a LOB application that users access through telnet, among other things accounting uses it for storing/accessing a large amount of financial data. Is this stuff that it's okay to send across the wire unencrypted? Probably not. IPSec is a good solution for encrypting data that needs a higher level of security but the underlying protocol doesnt support it.
IPSec works fine for VPNs (virtual private networks)
IPSec (in-and-of-itself is not a VPN protocol); perhaps you're thinking of an L2TP/IPSec VPN or IPSec with ESP?

IPSec can also be used to digitally sign communications (and not encrypting the payload at all). This can ensure that you arent subject to an internal spoofing attack.

This says to me that you dont really know much about IPSec or the Vista implimentation of it.

I'm not saying I disagree completly with the article; but like bersl2 said it needs to be toned down.

Me personally? Show me the money. Microsoft has a lot to prove with Vista and it's way too early to make a statement that it "will suck"

Erik
 
They also praise SuperFetch, Microsoft's new combination application pre-fetching technique and hyper-active virtual memory manager. Intelligent pre-fetching is a fine idea for boosting performance. You've been able to use it in any application written with the open-source GCC for years. Microsoft's execution of it, however, has one of the biggest "What were they thinking of?" mistakes I've seen in a long time.

You see, with SuperFetch you can a USB 2.0-based flash drive as a fetch buffer between your RAM and your hard disk. Let me spell that out for you. Vista will put part of your running application on a device that can be kicked off, knocked out, or that your dog can carry away as a chew toy. Do you see the problem here? Me too!

Well the whole article is BS but this quote in particular shows how little the writer knows about the system. You can kick, knock out, or my dog can carry away my usb 2.0 flash drive (btw, thats not the only option for supefectch) and no damage will be caused. It's not a buffer, it's a read cache. It fails, you simply go back to the harddrive.

The rest of the article is about is well researched.

 
Why do we need to bring crap like that article in here? With the exception of a few fanboys, nobody is going to take it seriously and we all know this guy is a moron. The only thing this will bring about is pointless arguments.
 
Originally posted by: kamper
Why do we need to bring crap like that article in here? With the exception of a few fanboys, nobody is going to take it seriously and we all know this guy is a moron. The only thing this will bring about is pointless arguments.

It's a differing opinion. The possibility of civil communication about these issue is possible (no matter how slight the possibility 😉).

I admit though, I wasted 3 minutes reading the article. ;(
 
The WMF hole was associated with the SetAbort() procedure in gdi32.dll, which isn't the kernel, and they may have just been using it for Vista betas for an interim. I am still surprised they haven't rewritten the whole thing by now though.

I'm confused about what he says regarding IPSec. That is just a Winsock layered service provider that provides configurable protection, and actually I think it's quite a good idea for a firewall.

He implies the TCP/IP stack needed to be rewritten a long time ago. Well not before they implemented the Security Center, so I think they got their priorities right.

I use Linux, and I like it, but I'm not a rabid Windows hater. I still prefer Windows for many things. Linux has more things to work on in the usability dept. and Windows has some to work on in the security and performance dept.

Once you've done some programming you'll realize how hard it is to implement all this stuff, and put it through rigorous QA while balancing customer support calls. Have more respect for the people coding it. Programming a game is hard, and programming an OS is your worst nightmare.

I never did think Ziff-Davis writers knew much about the internals, they just cater to 'e-business' people. What they are good at doing is exaggerating how bad things are. Take his referenced security 'expert' for example: WMF format 'ruined'
 
Originally posted by: stash
The possibility of civil communication about these issue is possible (no matter how slight the possibility
That would be nice!

:thumbsup:
Civil communication is a lovely ideal, but I'd rather have a heated argument about a good article than a civil discussion about a stupid one. It's not like there aren't plenty of other threads about the relative merits of linux and vista 😉
 
Originally posted by: bsobel
They also praise SuperFetch, Microsoft's new combination application pre-fetching technique and hyper-active virtual memory manager. Intelligent pre-fetching is a fine idea for boosting performance. You've been able to use it in any application written with the open-source GCC for years. Microsoft's execution of it, however, has one of the biggest "What were they thinking of?" mistakes I've seen in a long time.

You see, with SuperFetch you can a USB 2.0-based flash drive as a fetch buffer between your RAM and your hard disk. Let me spell that out for you. Vista will put part of your running application on a device that can be kicked off, knocked out, or that your dog can carry away as a chew toy. Do you see the problem here? Me too!

Well the whole article is BS but this quote in particular shows how little the writer knows about the system. You can kick, knock out, or my dog can carry away my usb 2.0 flash drive (btw, thats not the only option for supefectch) and no damage will be caused. It's not a buffer, it's a read cache. It fails, you simply go back to the harddrive.

The rest of the article is about is well researched.



Exactly!

IGBT, you really need to understand what the hell it is you are talking about before spouting garbage like your post has in it. Just reading what you wrote about Superfetch is enough to make me say you are clueless. Even if you were right, which you aren't about the USB key removal, do you honestly think this is the only way to use Superfetch? You really think it won't work without a USB key? Pure stupidity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Vista is not going to add much to the normal home users experience that XP can't. But this garbage that IGBT and the rest of the trolls like him put out is moronic. Not even a friggin clue what they are talking about.
 
Uh to be fair, IGBT didn't write it. He just posted and ran. This is why we need to have a rule against post and runs. You need to add some content.
 
Originally posted by: IGBT
Text
The truth is that very, very few people are going to be upgrading their existing systems to Vista. To make it work well, you're really going to need a new computer. If you didn't buy your PC in 2006, I wouldn't even try to run Vista on it.

I guess the author hasn't been around any Windows or Mac OS releases. It's always been like that. Few people actually go out and upgrade their current system (notwithstanding forums like AT)... most people will get the new OS with a new computer. The author said it IS better than XP... which is pretty damn good. And regardless how good or bad it is... MS has the market, so all new computer systems will come with it... unless Steve Jobs license out OSX... and it's laughable that Linux will be bundled with new PCs in any significant numbers... or google comes out with an OS cheaper than MS!
 
Originally posted by: stash
Uh to be fair, IGBT didn't write it. He just posted and ran. This is why we need to have a rule against post and runs. You need to add some content.
I didnt notice that either, thanks for the clarification.

If you're going to post an article you should just post a link and some content of your own; otherwise we think you wrote it 🙂
 
Ok, so then the question becomes (and I think the answer is clear) IGBT what do you think about the article? Are your opinions the same?
 
doesnt seem to work for me anymore either, apparently their server sucks as much as the article 😉

EDIT: now it's loading, but just very slowly.
 
Originally posted by: gsellis
The only thing I could think of reading your post was, "so, this guy really has never done an OS alpha/beta program before." Guess what, W2K sucked as did XP. NT 3.1 really sucked (Novell beta driver install deleted the file system - reinstall NT using the 15 or so floppies). It took me 6 mths working with Madge Networks and Novell to get a reliable NetBIOS, NetBEUI, IPX, and IP stack working on OS/2 2.0. And a lot of that was AFTER GA. I do have to admit, I liked Win95 beta as the network stack was easy to configure compared to Windows 3.11b (the menued autoexec.bat/config.sys with a Win tool that swapped out system.ini settings for different network cards.) One of the XP SP2 betas killed USB and Firewire device transfers. Another one turned on DEP for both system and app level that rendered the system useless until you could finally turn it off on a set the supported it. That was patched in a hurry (not MS' fault - buggy apps were doing lots of things the DEP stopped.)

And never make performance decisions on any OS beta. Every module can have a huge code path because of all the debug hooks and watchdogs that might be implemented.

I have not done any Linux betas, but I do remember a lot of grousing about device drivers (just like XP 64).

It is just a beta thing.

Oh, and the WMF bug... Not so much OS as module. Consider that the attacker only got rights of the user. A real OS bug usually allows the user to get System in the Kernel ring and is an another good reason to move devices up to User level.


..it seemed like an interesting article but mabe not a fair analysis due to the fact the author was using a beta and watchdogs and debug hooks may be impeding performance. But an interesting article nun the less.
 
Originally posted by: kamper
Why do we need to bring crap like that article in here? With the exception of a few fanboys, nobody is going to take it seriously and we all know this guy is a moron. The only thing this will bring about is pointless arguments.

I was thinking the same thing. Once I saw that the author was explaining simple acronyms, I knew who the target audience was.
 
thats stupid. linux has as many system requiremnets (unless you use flux box ) as xp does and when the new xgl based desktops start coming out it too will require more horse power underneath.

 
Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
thats stupid. linux has as many system requiremnets (unless you use flux box ) as xp does and when the new xgl based desktops start coming out it too will require more horse power underneath.

Actually no.. XGL and such will have pretty much the same hardware requirements as the current X server does. Any video card with OpenGL support should work fine... only very very old or old nvidia cards have no 3d acceleration. It will still run with no acceleration in software render mode. This is one of the design criteria for it.

For example.. a laptop with a ATI 7400 video card should work fine.

Modern full-featured Linux systems themselves generally require as much memory and cpu as XP... Right around 256 megs to 512 for a full featured desktop.

The CPU requirements to run a Linux system is much less though. Everything is modular and you can tailor a machine to suite a specific machine. I use a 500 mhz cpu at work with unaccelerated graphics (no XGL, of course) and 448 megs of RAM and it works fine (which is actually more then I've ever used on this machine so far). I use IceWM http://www.icewm.org/ and that gives me about the same level of functionality as Windows 9x machines.

The same setup ran fine on 200mhz Pentium MMX machines with 64 megs of RAM. Firefox was slow as heck though.

The next step up from something like that would be XFCE, which would probably be comparable to something that is slightly less then Windows 2000 in terms of resource usage. Maybe along the same lines as WinME.

Current KDE and Gnome setups are about the same weight as XP is. There are ongoing optimization efforts underway to reduce that though.

About a 800-1ghz machine with 256-512 megs of RAM is required to operate these things comfortably.


AS far as other operating systems go... in case you don't beleive me.

OS X has had a compositied, 3-D-based graphical display from the start. Their 'Aqua' interface. Very similar to what Microsoft is trying to do with their Areo interface.

Early OS X versions ran comfortably on G3 300mhz machines with 128megs of RAM.

These items had absolutely no hardware acceleration what-so-ever. b(early OS X versions had no support for 3d acceleration, it was all software rendering) These were pure software driven displays and ran fine on 300mhz machines. Not something GREAT, but it ran and was usefull for things.
 
Back
Top