Why wasn't an income tax in the ORIGINAL Constitution

Ulfwald

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
May 27, 2000
8,646
0
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As you know, one of my pet issues is taxation. For years I have been alerting you to the current efforts by leftists (principally Democrats) to shift the entire burden for the federal income tax to a small percentage of high-achieving income earners that are not all that likely to be voting Democrat.

Every year our federal government gets larger and larger. A failure to increase spending on a government program is called a ?spending cut.? And just when was the last time any of you heard of any federal government spending program being eliminated?

This year your elected officials in Washington decided that $600,000 should be seized from the Americans who actually earned that money and turned over to some woman to study the mating habits of South African ground squirrels. Do you realize what your grand representatives are telling you here? There are telling you that it is more important that this money be taken from you by force and spent on this study ? watching squirrels mate ? than it is to allow you to keep this money that you earned and spend it on those things that you deem to be important to you; things like prescription drugs, school supplies, retirement planning, medical care, saving for a down payment on a home or just for your own pleasure. When your government can take this money from you with such ease the mating habits of South African ground squirrels come first.

This, no one can deny, is excess. It is excess in government size, government power and government spending. This excess is enabled by excessive taxation.

Where, today, can we find men with the wisdom of our founding fathers? People like Alexander Hamilton had no interest in growing the size of the federal government beyond that which was absolutely necessary to fulfill the very limited mandates contained in the Constitution. Hamilton knew that it was the natural desire of government to grow, and that a constitution would have to be written to fight this desire. This is why, for the first 150 years of our history, our government was originally funded by what essentially are consumption taxes, not income taxes.

Read what Alexander Hamilton wrote in The Federalist Papers:

"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the Treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them."


For the past 15 years I have been an advocate of the elimination of income taxes and their replacement with a consumption tax. I favor a national retail sales tax much the same as that outlined by Americans for Fair Taxation [ www.fairtax.org ]. In the reading assignments you will find a link to a column from Bruce Bartlett. That?s where I got the Hamilton quote. In that column Bartlett also points out that it is ?easier to hold down the size of government by limiting taxation than by trying to control spending directly.?

You have to make up your own mind whether or not you want to get involved in any movement for a change in our system of taxation ? and just what you would like to see happen. Just remember this. Government is getting larger every single year that passes. Government is spending more money, both in terms of actual dollars and in terms of our Gross National Product every single year. Right now the average American tax payer pays a higher percentage of the wealth that he creates to the Imperial Federal Government of the United States than did the serfs to their Lords in ancient England.

You may be so far along, and so economically bullet proof that the ever-increasing size of government isn?t going to nail you. But ? do you have children?

Courtesy Neal Boortz
 

geekender

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2001
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Then of course there is the argument that the 16th amendment was never properly ratified.....that income tax is illegal.....that according to the constitution only the states have rights to tax us because we are not actually citizens of The United States but of the state we live in and that the only true citizens of The United States are those who are citizens of the District of Columbia, and our territories. Therefore the only people that the income tax applies to are those who are on a U.S. Government salary and residents of the District of Columbia....

Link
 

geekender

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2001
2,414
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Update:



WTP PRESS CONFERENCE:

1 P.M. Eastern, Monday, April 8

Watch it LIVE From The National Press Club by FREE Webcast

Conspiracy And Racketeering Widespread at IRS
DOJ And IRS Operating Outside the Law
Congress Looks the Other Way
Peaceful Resistance Planned
On April 8th at 1:00 p.m. (Eastern), 10:00 a.m. (Pacific), there will be a press conference in Washington D.C. regarding the federal income tax. The event will be held at the National Press Club.

The press conference will be broadcast live via webcast. Anyone will be able to watch the press conference by logging onto:

ConnectLive.com/events/wethepeople/

All citizens are respectfully requested to contact reporters and editors at their local newspapers and radio and T.V. stations. Ask the financial reporters and editors if they are aware of Monday's press conference on the widespread conspiracy and racketeering at the IRS and to watch the press conference live on the internet. Get their fax numbers and send them a copy of today's press release. Click here for a copy of the press release to be faxed to reporters/editors.

Click here to find your local media outlets and easily contact them.

At the press conference, a Forensic Accountant will reveal absolute proof of widespread and intentional illegal tax assessments and accounting procedures performed by agents of the United States Internal Revenue Service-with the full knowledge of the IRS, DOJ, Congress and the Courts.

Irrefutable evidence will be presented that documents a long-standing pattern of IRS fraud and abuse including: the unlawful manipulation of taxpayers' Individual (IMF) Master Files; the propagation and illegal collection of time-barred tax assessments; the intentional underpayment of interest lawfully owed to taxpayers; the imposition of levies against taxpayers' Social Security benefits in direct violation of U.S. law; the fraudulent certification of court tax documents, and much more.

"IRS agents are entering fraudulent transaction dates in some taxpayer's master files to cover-up and conceal illegal time barred assessments," reports an expert forensic accountant who will testify at the press conference. "Prior to the 1998 IRS Reform and Restructuring Act, a taxpayer had no way to prove that the IRS had committed illegal or fraudulent accounting against them. The IRS maintains an Individual Master File on every taxpayer. These files contain detailed personal information on the taxpayer that has always been, and continues to be, written in a complex technical code that is hidden from the American public. Any illegal activity by the IRS could not be decoded before 1998. But the IRS was forced to release the code as a result of the 1998 Reform and Restructuring Act."

After three years of intensive technical research and investigation, the forensic accountant has uncovered a pattern of widespread fraud at the IRS, resulting in numerous illegal assessments and accounting procedures against individual taxpayers. According to this expert witness, "We have yet to review a single Individual Master File, and not find abuse or illegal activity by the IRS."

The pervasive fraud and corruption at the IRS has recently been documented in a video and sent to all members of the House and Senate IRS Oversight Committees. The silence from our elected representatives has been deafening!

At the press conference, the We The People Foundation will release to the press the 615 page transcript of the Citizens' Truth-In-Taxation Hearing which was held in Washington DC on February 27 and 28, 2002. Expert witnesses (including ex-IRS agents, ex-IRS counsel, constitutional and tax attorneys, CPAs, a forensic accountant and prominent tax law researchers) testified, under oath, to detailed questions challenging the legal authority of the IRS to force employers to withhold any income tax from the paychecks of their employees, and the legal authority of the IRS to force most American citizens to file a tax return and to pay the income tax. Click here to download the 460 questions that were answered under oath by the expert witnesses. (170KB .PDF)

The hearing record should remove any doubt by anyone (including Congress) that the nation's income tax system is unconstitutional in its origin, fraudulent and abusive in its operation, and ultimately repugnant to every principle of equal justice, due process of law and personal liberty that we cherish as Americans. Click here to view a summary of the evidence and conclusions of the Citizens' Truth-In-Taxation Hearing.

This week the Wall Street Journal reported that the Senate Finance Committee will conduct a hearing on April 11th to address taxpayer "schemes, scams and cons." At Monday's press conference the We The People Foundation will challenge the Senate Finance Committee to begin looking at the fraudulent jurisdiction of the IRS, and the illegal operation of our income tax system. If Congress is truly interested in ending income tax related "schemes, scams and cons," it must first accept accountability for this unconstitutional, unjust and immoral system of taxation that it has imposed on the working people of America. Click here for a copy of the Wall Street Journal article.

"We, the American people, demand that Congress direct the IRS and DOJ to stop forcing employers to withhold the tax from the paychecks of their employees, and stop forcing citizens to file a tax return and to pay the tax, OR, schedule a full-blown congressional hearing, requiring the IRS and the DOJ to answer the questions and address the overwhelming evidence that was presented at the recorded February Truth-In-Taxation Hearing," said Bob Schulz, Chairman of We The People Foundation. "To do anything less will completely destroy all confidence in the integrity of our elected public servants, and ultimately promote widespread peaceful resistance to the income tax system."
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71


<< For years I have been alerting you to the current efforts by leftists (principally Democrats) to shift the entire burden for the federal income tax to a small percentage of high-achieving income earners that are not all that likely to be voting Democrat.
>>



not to make this a flamefest but over the past 3 decades there really hasn't been much difference between democrat and republican when it comes to spending. they've both spent excessively. the difference has been in WHERE they spend their money and not HOW much they spend.

A national sales tax will never be ratified by the states because it will take away their principle source of taxation. I'm all for a consistent and flat tax rate.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I like taxes, cause if I didn't pay taxes I wouldn't have just gotten a nice tax refund :D ;)
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
50
91


<< Where, today, can we find men with the wisdom of our founding fathers? >>



They're working in private industry, because they're not scummy enough to go to Washington. :disgust:
 

yakko

Lifer
Apr 18, 2000
25,455
2
0


<< I'm all for a consistent and flat tax rate. >>

I am against it because it makes the few who are successful pay more for what they have achieved. A national sales tax with NO EXEMPTIONS is the only fair way to do it. If it is done with no exemptions then it can be as low as one or two percent and still bring in more money than the current tax structure. It will only work if there is no exemptions anywhere for anything. You bought it then it is taxed. This system will also allow me to actually own a home in my county instead ot renting it for life through property tax.
 

GermyBoy

Banned
Jun 5, 2001
3,524
0
0
Wasn't in the original constitution because they were getting away from taxation without representation.

They needed just reasons to tax the people. WWI gave the prez that reason, and unfortunately it still stands.

I am all for removing personal income taxes, and just taxing corporations heavily. Then we'd all be more willing to pay more for the goods we do buy, and as only rich people buy a lot of things, rich people pay a lot more omoney. :)

Oh yeah, tax those tobacco and liquor companies to their death. They are horrible.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
yakko

ya. i used the wrong words there. i'm not for forbes flat tax plan. i was speaking more generally. more specifically i think that the VAT should replace ALL forms of taxation. get rid of all state taxes, property taxes, sin taxes, gas taxes, etc etc.

when a tax system gets to complex for the average man to figure out how much he's paying in taxes, it must be revised.

there are 3 requirements for a good tax system.

1. low overhead (it shouldn't be hard to collect).
2. Easy to calculate (everyone should be able to figure out how much they are going to pay and when)
3. Fair (this is the hardest one because it's hard to decide what fair means)

VAT really meets the criterias pretty well. in Korea all products have written on the product price of product, percentage that went to Vat etc.

 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0


<< I am all for removing personal income taxes, and just taxing corporations heavily. >>



THAT'S A GREAT IDEA!!!!!!


























If you want even more of our companies and jobs to move to Mexico, China, Singapore, etc.....
 

Novgrod

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2001
1,142
0
0
An income tax would have been a little bit of a crazy idea to any of the founding fathers for a couple reasons. First, everybody came from the British school of political thought. In England, taxes were a gift from the people to the king, so excessive taxation was a little insane.

Second, they had just fought a war to end stupid taxation/regulation. The Whiskey Tax somewhat hurts this idea, but still . . .

Most importantly, there was no need for an income tax because even Hamilton's beaurocracy wasn't big enough to demand one.

There is a reasonable argument for the present system of taxation: The wealth disparity between rich and poor is growing, even though the graduated income tax is now insanely slanted. Wealth disparity is a really bad thing in excess, because you need to have lots of people buying lots of things for the economy to succeed.

I think the best easy fix would be to get rid of all the tax dodges for people/businesses with good accountants. After that, I don't know what but I do think that the income tax system as it stands sucks butt, and that a flat tax would be better.

A sales tax would, IMHO, not be the greatest thing because the poorer someone is, the more he spends on consumer items; the richer he is, the more he saves. This would prompt many people to save more, which is good, but if they were sticking money in their mattresses, people wouldn't be buying enough basic consumer goods (shoes, tvs, etc) to drive the basic wheels of the economy. That would be a bad thing.

Then again, maybe i'm entirely wrong :)
 

Mister T

Diamond Member
Feb 25, 2000
3,439
0
0


<< As you know, one of my pet issues is taxation. For years I have been alerting you to the current efforts by leftists (principally Democrats) to shift the entire burden for the federal income tax to a small percentage of high-achieving income earners that are not all that likely to be voting Democrat.

Every year our federal government gets larger and larger. A failure to increase spending on a government program is called a ?spending cut.? And just when was the last time any of you heard of any federal government spending program being eliminated?

This year your elected officials in Washington decided that $600,000 should be seized from the Americans who actually earned that money and turned over to some woman to study the mating habits of South African ground squirrels. Do you realize what your grand representatives are telling you here? There are telling you that it is more important that this money be taken from you by force and spent on this study ? watching squirrels mate ? than it is to allow you to keep this money that you earned and spend it on those things that you deem to be important to you; things like prescription drugs, school supplies, retirement planning, medical care, saving for a down payment on a home or just for your own pleasure. When your government can take this money from you with such ease the mating habits of South African ground squirrels come first.

This, no one can deny, is excess. It is excess in government size, government power and government spending. This excess is enabled by excessive taxation.

Where, today, can we find men with the wisdom of our founding fathers? People like Alexander Hamilton had no interest in growing the size of the federal government beyond that which was absolutely necessary to fulfill the very limited mandates contained in the Constitution. Hamilton knew that it was the natural desire of government to grow, and that a constitution would have to be written to fight this desire. This is why, for the first 150 years of our history, our government was originally funded by what essentially are consumption taxes, not income taxes.

Read what Alexander Hamilton wrote in The Federalist Papers:

"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the Treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them."


For the past 15 years I have been an advocate of the elimination of income taxes and their replacement with a consumption tax. I favor a national retail sales tax much the same as that outlined by Americans for Fair Taxation [ www.fairtax.org ]. In the reading assignments you will find a link to a column from Bruce Bartlett. That?s where I got the Hamilton quote. In that column Bartlett also points out that it is ?easier to hold down the size of government by limiting taxation than by trying to control spending directly.?

You have to make up your own mind whether or not you want to get involved in any movement for a change in our system of taxation ? and just what you would like to see happen. Just remember this. Government is getting larger every single year that passes. Government is spending more money, both in terms of actual dollars and in terms of our Gross National Product every single year. Right now the average American tax payer pays a higher percentage of the wealth that he creates to the Imperial Federal Government of the United States than did the serfs to their Lords in ancient England.

You may be so far along, and so economically bullet proof that the ever-increasing size of government isn?t going to nail you. But ? do you have children?

Courtesy Neal Boortz
>>



Amen.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
126


<< As you know, one of my pet issues is taxation. For years I have been alerting you to the current efforts by leftists (principally Democrats) to shift the entire burden for the federal income tax to a small percentage of high-achieving income earners that are not all that likely to be voting Democrat. >>

The burden of federal income tax is already shouldered by a small percentage of high-achieving income earners. 5% of Americans (the super rich) pay a full 50% of all income taxes in the U.S. and income tax represents 80% of all federal government revenue.

<< Every year our federal government gets larger and larger... >>

No argument there, our population, and thus the costs of society, become greater. It would follow that government should also become 'larger'. But, is government becoming 'larger' per capita? That is the real issue.

<< This, no one can deny, is excess. It is excess in government size, government power and government spending. This excess is enabled by excessive taxation. >>

Sure, and excessive taxation is enabled either by an indifferent or apathetic voting population, or one that actually supports taxation at rates you call 'excessive'.

<< Where, today, can we find men with the wisdom of our founding fathers? People like Alexander Hamilton had no interest in growing the size of the federal government beyond that which was absolutely necessary to fulfill the very limited mandates contained in the Constitution. Hamilton knew that it was the natural desire of government to grow, and that a constitution would have to be written to fight this desire. This is why, for the first 150 years of our history, our government was originally funded by what essentially are consumption taxes, not income taxes. >>

Ah, now you've stepped in it. One of my passions: the Founding Fathers.

Hamilton was representative of the FEDERALISTS (favored centralized and powerful federal government) who saw the Articles of Confederation for the sham that it was. If you'll remember, the Articles of Confederation gave the federal government little power to lay and collect taxes. The result was an ineffective and anemic federal government. The monumental burden of Revolutionary War debt fell upon the states, who nearly drowned in it, resulting in wide support for the adoption of a new Federal Constitution, one which gave the federal government broad but not unlimited powers to lay and collect taxes, among other powers.

<< Read what Alexander Hamilton wrote in the Federalist Papers: >>

That was a stirring excerpt of Federalist #21, which was aptly entitled "Other Defects of the Present Confederation" (Articles of Confederation). It demonstrates Hamilton's favor of indirect taxation. What you conveniently fail to disclose is Hamilton's statement that immediately follows:

"Impositions of this kind usually fall under the denomination of indirect taxes, and must for a long time constitute the chief part of the revenue raised in this country. Those of the direct kind, which principally relate to land and buildings, may admit of a rule of apportionment."

Did you see it? Did Hamilton advise that indirect taxation should "always" constitute the chief part of the revenue? Did Hamilton warn that direct taxation ought "never" be a substantial portion of the revenue? Nope, Hamilton said no such thing.

Hamilton advised that, "for a long time", indirect (consumption) taxes should be the primary source of revenue for this country. This naturally INFERS Hamilton believed there would come a point and time in the future where indirect taxation ought NOT be the "chief part of the revenue" raised in the U.S.

Hamilton also does not disparage direct taxation, he does not say that direct taxes will spell destruction of democracy, freedom, incentive, industry, enterprise, and commerce. What does Hamilton say about direct taxes? Only that direct taxes "may admit of a rule of apportionment".

Woah, Alex! Tell us how you really feel about direct taxes, don't hold back. lol!

But, if indirect taxes are some panacea and Hamilton loved them so much, why would he envision a time when indirect taxation may not be the best primary source of revenue? For the answer, we must refer to parts of Federalist #12, entitled "The Utility of the Union In Respect to Revenue", where Hamilton first iterated his advice that America must for "a long time depend for the means of revenue chiefly on such duties" as indirect taxes (again, the recurring language "for a long time", not "forevermore").

"In America, it is evident that we must a long time depend for the means of revenue chiefly on such duties. In most parts of it, excises must be confined within a narrow compass. The genius of the people will ill brook the inquisitive and peremptory spirit of excise laws. The pockets of the farmers, on the other hand, will reluctantly yield but scanty supplies, in the unwelcome shape of impositions on their houses and lands; and personal property is too precarious and invisible a fund to be laid hold of in any other way than by the inperceptible agency of taxes on consumption."

What Hamilton is saying, is that America didn't have enough money to tax directly! Commerce at the time was overwhelmingly comprised of import, export, cottage, and agricultural industries that involved lots of trading and bartering, not an exchange of money. Hamilton is saying that your tax system has to go where there is something to tax, not spend an inordinate amount of public resources trying to shake nickels from people who hardly have any to begin with. You can't extract money from the poor farmer whose pockets are full of SEED, not cash. Therefore, Hamilton was advising to go after consumption, because that's where the real 'money' was at.

After reading Federalist #12 and #21, one can come to no other conclusion than Hamilton was a tax Nazi, given the tax-protesting standard of his day. To Hamilton, direct taxation was not 'bad', per se, but would be exceedingly difficult and impractical to enforce in his time. The government would spend more money on the expenses relating to collection than the tax would generate. To Hamilton, it was a simple cost vs. benefit issue.

Moreover, your entire diatribe is premised in one glaring error. The Constitution in fact did NOT prohibit direct taxation, which is precisely what income taxes are. It only required that direct taxes be apportioned among the states vs. the rule of uniformity. The 16th Amendment gave the Federal Government NO NEW TAXING POWER that it didn't already have. The 16th Amendment simply removed the requirement that direct taxes be apportioned among the states, and made irrelevant a judicial controversy as to whether income tax was a direct or indirect tax.

Jefferson was especially praiseworthy of excise and import taxation, but for different reasons. At the time, poor people consumed very little if anything imported, they couldn't afford to; they were poor and had no money. It was the middle class and wealthy who were consuming all that stuff being imported from Spain, England, Italy, the West Indes, the Far East, etc.

It was Jefferson's opinion that poor people shouldn't have to pay a plum nickel and that the wealthy should pay all of the taxes via excise taxes and import duties. Jefferson was an advocate for the poor, remember he was the author of Virginia's militia act requiring periodic mustering of the Virginia militia, and that the indigent members be supplied a rifle at the expense of the Virginia Commonwealth.

So, in a way, as long as our tax system hits the rich disportionately harder than it does the poor, and that wealth is then redistributed to benefit the poor, the underlying premise behind the founding father's objections to certain types and manners of taxation is being adhered and given deference to. The founder's held their views long before there was such a solid US currency system, before bartering and trading gave way to currency as the medium of exchange. We have a vastly different economy than existed in 1789, and the poor in the U.S. now have little other choice but to survive primarily by being consumers.

In our modern economy, a consumption based tax system would disproportionately hit the poor as they consume like everyone else. What the poor don't have are large incomes and assets, which the Framers would have advocated we tax the dickens out of. Is that what you meant?