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Why War Isn't A Necessity

LightRider

Senior member
Throughout history, and even before history, the species of man was raising up to be the most dominant species on earth. We did not get this way through sheer numbers, as the lowly bacteria outnumbers us by the countless billions. Nor by superior building methods, as the ants, bees, and termites of the world have constructed more complex and efficient living spaces than we ever will. Nor is it by being proficient with tools, as even our genetic cousins in the jungles are capable of putting a twig to good use. Our strength lies in our communication, organization and fierce competition.

Without being able to communicate at such a high level, humanity would not be where it is today. The aforementioned bacteria have no way to communicate with each other, they simply react, and this makes organization a bit difficult. The insects of the world communicate, but on such an extremely simple level that they will try to mate with a q-tip if it gives off the right pheromones. This makes it difficult for them to see past their own short-lived survival and single-mindedness in doing work for the hive. The apes of the world can communicate on a level nearly human, but their consciousness deals not with the well being of others or the concepts of freedom, but the protection of their kin, and the intrusions of their land and resources.

If we look at the popular views as to the origination of man, then we see the following patterns emerge. Man was given a paradise to live in, where the entire world was ours to command, and all that we could want was in the trees and rivers of life. We were simple creatures that had no care of conflict or death; we did not even have a desire of life. We had but a responsibility to keep out world in order and maintained. Very much like the God that created us, we were incapable of being impure, as we did not know what impure was. However, when we were commanded not to eat of the tree of knowledge, we were given a concept foreign to us, control.

In evolutionary theory, the simple creatures were our genetic ancestors, unable to discern good from bad, just living in our paradise without a care, being in balance with the world around us and not knowing that we would one day die. We did nothing wrong because there was nothing to do that was wrong. We could only follow our nature, which was to take what we needed, and fend for what was ours. Survival wasn't work and toil, it was just being. When the urge to procreate took us, we did what was in our genes to perpetuate our species. We had little need for perversions and other distractions. But sooner or later, came the snake.

Who is to say what we, as a species, can and cannot do? An all-powerful God commanded us not to eat of the tree of knowledge. We do not understand, but we find no reason to not follow the command, there is other fruit to eat. There is another force though, a voice if you will. A curiosity in our minds. An idea that there is something better than what we have. The belief that we can achieve more than what we already do. The concept of power. To eat of the tree is to achieve the same power as the one who commands us not to. Little did we know it was advice for our own benefit, not God's unthreatened dominance.

We began to learn that, when threatened, we could deal with our threat more effectively with a group. We learned that fire could be useful. We learned that communicating the area of our food and organizing ourselves into hunting parties yielded bigger bounties. We learned that farming is more certain than foraging. We learned that more was mostly better than less. We learned that depending on each other gave us more life than by living alone. And throughout all this learning, we were becoming increasingly aware of one big glaring fact. We will all come to our own end in this world.

Elephants are seen to be mourning over their dead, and mother gazelles will trot away when a hungry lioness seizes their young. The lumbering herbivores of the Jurassic period would lie down and wait for the inevitable when their legs were broken after they slid down a hill. These creatures knew that death was a part of life. However, they cannot conceive of a world in which they do not exist. Their world dies with them. We realize however, that life will go on without us. The members of our tribe will go on after our time, and now only our world will not exist. We cannot effect change when we are dead. We cannot contribute, communicate or know anything after our end. We knew of our own mortality and the mortality of others.

Our curiosity gave way to our learning and our knowledge. We began to look out for each other, but at the same time remain aware that the others may not want us around for competition. We know that more is better, and our time is limited, so must make the most of what little we have. Our groups formed, and our bonds grew strong. To know others in our group is to know ourselves in a way. They understand that we are in this together, and we must defend our resources, and ourselves not just for us, but for our progeny as well, but mainly for us. We know the same things, and therefore believe the same things. We know that our beliefs are what keep us together and that the more together we are, the better chance we have of survival. We have no reason to fight with other groups though. There are plenty of resources around, but just make sure they don't get ours. There is more farming land down the river.

Our groups gave way to civilization when we found out that our land was limited. The bigger our group, the bigger our land needed to be. If they won't join our group, then they are a threat to our survival. This is the rational that modern man has, had and will always have. It was ingrained in us through our rise, and it will be with us to our fall, the end of all things. We took the place of God when we learned of our own mortality. We learned that we had to kill or be killed. The way life was before; we did not have these concepts. Some may say the law of the jungle is to kill or be killed, but in actuality, it is live and let live. Every life in the biosphere is producing and consuming, giving and taking, living and dying. Such was the balance before man. Now our laws are much more different. Join or die, pray or pay, put out or get out. We want Israel sundered or we want Israel safe. We want democracy or we want monarchy. Give me freedom or give me death.

Man decided long ago, not consciously, that war wasn't a necessity, but a certainty. Those of us in the group who are willing to make it bigger, stronger and better were willing to sacrifice ourselves for the good of others in our group. We do this because we believe in our group and we know that the others are not conducive to our survival. The biblical battles show that our beliefs in the spiritual world can dominate our needs in the physical world. The crusades show that as well. The revolutions, revolts and battles of independence and sovereignty show that even in groups, we are divided. We cannot escape the need for conflict. When one finds them self alone, they have little chance of mental well-being. Conflict has been so ingrained in us that we need to find someone to argue with, even if it turns out to be our self. Society as well, will not tolerate those who call for peace and non-aggression. Those who know better and believe that only conflict will resolve our conflicts have duly silenced all our great thinkers and peace-mongers. The acquisition of power, wealth and status seem to increase the need for this, strangely enough. While those with less are willing to defend themselves with all in their possession, be it rocks, sticks or even their physical selves. As long is there is man, there will be war. As long as there is death, there will be man.
 
Paragraphs are your friends.

It's standard practice to skip one line between paragraphs when one does not indent.

ZV
 
Originally posted by: LightRider
Throughout history, and even before history, the species of man was raising up to be the most dominant species on earth. We did not get this way through sheer numbers, as the lowly bacteria outnumbers us by the countless billions. Nor by superior building methods, as the ants, bees, and termites of the world have constructed more complex and efficient living spaces than we ever will. Nor is it by being proficient with tools, as even our genetic cousins in the jungles are capable of putting a twig to good use. Our strength lies in our communication, organization and fierce competition.

Without being able to communicate at such a high level, humanity would not be where it is today. The aforementioned bacteria have no way to communicate with each other, they simply react, and this makes organization a bit difficult. The insects of the world communicate, but on such an extremely simple level that they will try to mate with a q-tip if it gives off the right pheromones. This makes it difficult for them to see past their own short-lived survival and single-mindedness in doing work for the hive. The apes of the world can communicate on a level nearly human, but their consciousness deals not with the well being of others or the concepts of freedom, but the protection of their kin, and the intrusions of their land and resources.

If we look at the popular views as to the origination of man, then we see the following patterns emerge. Man was given a paradise to live in, where the entire world was ours to command, and all that we could want was in the trees and rivers of life. We were simple creatures that had no care of conflict or death; we did not even have a desire of life. We had but a responsibility to keep out world in order and maintained. Very much like the God that created us, we were incapable of being impure, as we did not know what impure was. However, when we were commanded not to eat of the tree of knowledge, we were given a concept foreign to us, control.

In evolutionary theory, the simple creatures were our genetic ancestors, unable to discern good from bad, just living in our paradise without a care, being in balance with the world around us and not knowing that we would one day die. We did nothing wrong because there was nothing to do that was wrong. We could only follow our nature, which was to take what we needed, and fend for what was ours. Survival wasn't work and toil, it was just being. When the urge to procreate took us, we did what was in our genes to perpetuate our species. We had little need for perversions and other distractions. But sooner or later, came the snake.

Who is to say what we, as a species, can and cannot do? An all-powerful God commanded us not to eat of the tree of knowledge. We do not understand, but we find no reason to not follow the command, there is other fruit to eat. There is another force though, a voice if you will. A curiosity in our minds. An idea that there is something better than what we have. The belief that we can achieve more than what we already do. The concept of power. To eat of the tree is to achieve the same power as the one who commands us not to. Little did we know it was advice for our own benefit, not God's unthreatened dominance.

We began to learn that, when threatened, we could deal with our threat more effectively with a group. We learned that fire could be useful. We learned that communicating the area of our food and organizing ourselves into hunting parties yielded bigger bounties. We learned that farming is more certain than foraging. We learned that more was mostly better than less. We learned that depending on each other gave us more life than by living alone. And throughout all this learning, we were becoming increasingly aware of one big glaring fact. We will all come to our own end in this world.

Elephants are seen to be mourning over their dead, and mother gazelles will trot away when a hungry lioness seizes their young. The lumbering herbivores of the Jurassic period would lie down and wait for the inevitable when their legs were broken after they slid down a hill. These creatures knew that death was a part of life. However, they cannot conceive of a world in which they do not exist. Their world dies with them. We realize however, that life will go on without us. The members of our tribe will go on after our time, and now only our world will not exist. We cannot effect change when we are dead. We cannot contribute, communicate or know anything after our end. We knew of our own mortality and the mortality of others.

Our curiosity gave way to our learning and our knowledge. We began to look out for each other, but at the same time remain aware that the others may not want us around for competition. We know that more is better, and our time is limited, so must make the most of what little we have. Our groups formed, and our bonds grew strong. To know others in our group is to know ourselves in a way. They understand that we are in this together, and we must defend our resources, and ourselves not just for us, but for our progeny as well, but mainly for us. We know the same things, and therefore believe the same things. We know that our beliefs are what keep us together and that the more together we are, the better chance we have of survival. We have no reason to fight with other groups though. There are plenty of resources around, but just make sure they don't get ours. There is more farming land down the river.

Our groups gave way to civilization when we found out that our land was limited. The bigger our group, the bigger our land needed to be. If they won't join our group, then they are a threat to our survival. This is the rational that modern man has, had and will always have. It was ingrained in us through our rise, and it will be with us to our fall, the end of all things. We took the place of God when we learned of our own mortality. We learned that we had to kill or be killed. The way life was before; we did not have these concepts. Some may say the law of the jungle is to kill or be killed, but in actuality, it is live and let live. Every life in the biosphere is producing and consuming, giving and taking, living and dying. Such was the balance before man. Now our laws are much more different. Join or die, pray or pay, put out or get out. We want Israel sundered or we want Israel safe. We want democracy or we want monarchy. Give me freedom or give me death.

Man decided long ago, not consciously, that war wasn't a necessity, but a certainty. Those of us in the group who are willing to make it bigger, stronger and better were willing to sacrifice ourselves for the good of others in our group. We do this because we believe in our group and we know that the others are not conducive to our survival. The biblical battles show that our beliefs in the spiritual world can dominate our needs in the physical world. The crusades show that as well. The revolutions, revolts and battles of independence and sovereignty show that even in groups, we are divided. We cannot escape the need for conflict. When one finds them self alone, they have little chance of mental well-being. Conflict has been so ingrained in us that we need to find someone to argue with, even if it turns out to be our self. Society as well, will not tolerate those who call for peace and non-aggression. Those who know better and believe that only conflict will resolve our conflicts have duly silenced all our great thinkers and peace-mongers. The acquisition of power, wealth and status seem to increase the need for this, strangely enough. While those with less are willing to defend themselves with all in their possession, be it rocks, sticks or even their physical selves. As long is there is man, there will be war. As long as there is death, there will be man.

Paragraphs are your friend 😉
 
From premise to conclusion your statement was self important, indefensible, and at best meaningless, at worst a self indulgent lie.

But just so I can support myself here is an example of how wrong you are
{
Society as well, will not tolerate those who call for peace and non-aggression

Much of society *that being US society* is the exact opposite, and calling our society all of anything is flat out wrong. This self important look at how repressed one is for being against defensive action could only be made possible by those that are not.

When it comes down to it, we who will fight for life will save you who would fight not to defend it, and you will not appreciate it but insult us for it, but we will simply respond by knowing we where correct.

Those who know better and believe that only conflict will resolve our conflicts have duly silenced all our great thinkers and peace-mongers
What with how they killed of Jesus? and um? right; give me one man that was killed in the US in the past GENERATION because he was protesting war. Berceuse otherwise it doesn?t affect your life, now does it?
}

I could do this for almost everything of any meaning that you said, and although you can argue it, I WILL NOT, you are so glaringly wrong in almost every conclusion you came to it hurts.


In conclusion the whole annoyingly long preach was self important, wrong headed, and completely lacking any original thought.


Wow do I ever wish I didn?t read that? I?ve become less intelligent because of it!

If anyone thinks I?m flaming him try reading through all that and say you don?t come to the same conclusion!
 
The aforementioned bacteria have no way to communicate with each other, they simply react, and this makes organization a bit difficult.

Study Reveals How Bacteria Communicate About Their Environment

An all-powerful God commanded us not to eat of the tree of knowledge.

rolleye.gif


Well, first post I ever saw from you and you flipped the bozo bit right on.

Bill
 
Hey Ron! Thanks for reading!

I realized people might react very much like you did, not because I wanted big angry responses, but because that's just the way people react.

You might be led to believe that I'm anti-war, or pro-Iraq or non-patriotic or a member of any other group whose views you don't agree with. I don't think you've understood what I wrote quite right. I wasn't saying war is good or bad, just that it is a necessary part of the human condition. And if you notice, I didn't say much at all about our current situation.

To say that the U.S. hasn't murdered people that are for peace is true in a sense. The U.S. will tolerate its people voicing their opinions. It will also paint them as whiners, hippies, ignorant and self-absorbed. Of course peace rally posters don't make the warring party look all that attractive either. They will say anything that has some semblance of the truth in it to make the government look bad. It is a war on a much more subtle front. Each side will try to kill off the spirit of the other. Our current government doesn't seem so concerned with public or worldwide opinion however. It is well known that the administration in charge has all but given the green light to the bombers out in the Gulf.

I see the people in the peace rallies and meetings and marches all over the world, and while I do sympathize with them, I cannot agree with their point of view. They fail to see something that is actually glaringly obvious and deserves attention. The free people of the world insist that no one attacks Iraq. The governments of many countries are tied up debating about whether we should be doing some "serious consequence" action. The people of Iraq, however, are quite silent.

They do not protest their government from committing the cruel acts that it commits. They are not telling the government, pleading with Saddam to disarm to avert war. The people of Iraq are actually getting ready for the war, digging trenches and gathering supplies to stay indoors. They don't do this because they want war. They do it because they are under the watchful eye of a cruel dictator. They do not have the luxury to protest their government's action. They cannot voice their dissenting opinions because they will surely be tortured, let alone killed, by the ones watching them.

Those lucky enough to be on the front lines have already surrendered to our forces, proof that even the army does not believe what those in power do.

The people protesting for peace around the world do not understand what they are asking for because they can only see one side of it. While I will disagree with them because of their misconceptions, many others will disagree due to knee-jerk reactions of self-defense and patriotism. I also disagree with many pro-war pundits because of their misperceptions. Those who would have us believe that Iraq is our biggest threat at this moment are sorely wrong. There are issues in the world that extend beyond geopolitical realms. Our shortsightedness, however, does not lend itself to these more pressing issues, mainly because they affect the whole of humanity rather than this particular group or that one.

Do I support the war? No.

Am I against the war? No.

Can I affect changes in the world that would remove the certainty of war? Only if I can change the hearts and minds of the people of the world, which is really what it would take.
 
Jmman, you'd better stop reading with a paper bag on your head. I have know idea what LR was saying. Check out this:

Title of thread, "Why War Isn't A Necessity" and compare that to the last two lines were presumably we get a summation of the theme, "As long is there is man, there will be war. As long as there is death, there will be man. Tell me how that makes war other than necessity? Now if you're trying to suggest that maybe we somehow sound like we know what we are talking about I can at least promise you that LR doesn't and I do. 😀 Oh man, where do they come from. 🙂

LR, lots of unexamined assumptions in your text there, but my biggest problem is I don't know what you were trying to say. What was the main point?




 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Jmman, you'd better stop reading with a paper bag on your head. I have know idea what LR was saying. Check out this:

Title of thread, "Why War Isn't A Necessity" and compare that to the last two lines were presumably we get a summation of the theme, "As long is there is man, there will be war. As long as there is death, there will be man. Tell me how that makes war other than necessity? Now if you're trying to suggest that maybe we somehow sound like we know what we are talking about I can at least promise you that LR doesn't and I do. 😀 Oh man, where do they come from. 🙂

LR, lots of unexamined assumptions in your text there, but my biggest problem is I don't know what you were trying to say. What was the main point?


Moonie, most of the time you make a post I think the same thing.......😛
 
Why do morons bother to post useless comments like Deeko has so vividly done? It adds absolutely nothing to the topic. If you're too lazy to read, leave the thread to people that actually want to discuss the topic at hand, rather than flaunt your own ignorance. In the time you wasted posting "it's to long waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" you could have spent reading and *gasp* possibly learning something.

But I digress...
 
From: Aviation Week & Space Technology
Headline: Satellite Photos Believed To Show Airliner for Training Hijackers
Byline: Michael A. Dornheim
Dateline: Los Angeles, January 7, 2002

Satellite images of a facility near Baghdad show an airliner that Iraqi defectors say is used to train terrorists in the art of hijacking.Space Imaging, which operates the Ikonos civilian surveillance satellite, was prompted to look for the aircraft in existing photos after a ''Frontline'' television show interviewed two Iraqi defectors who described the hijacker training and the aircraft used for the mock attacks.

One of them drew a map of the Salman Pak training area, and Space Imaging was able to find the facility and the aircraft in photographs taken on Apr. 25, 2000, of an area about 15 mi. southeast of Baghdad on the Tigris River. The zoomed-in photograph is a close match to the hand-drawn map, lending credence to the defector's story. He is Sabah Khodada, and said he worked at the secret Salman Pak complex for about six months as an administrator. The facility is run by the Iraqi secret service, and is used to teach assassination, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, buses and trains and other terrorist operations, Khodada said. ''This camp is specialized in exporting terrorism to the whole world.''

Foreigners were trained separately from Iraqis, both Khodada and the other defector said.The aircraft is sitting by itself far from an airport. ''In this camp, I saw [people] getting trained [in] situations where security will not allow you to get weapons into the plane - then what you need to do is to use...very advanced terrorizing methods,'' Khodada said on the television show.''They are even trained how to use utensils for food, like forks and knives provided in the plane....

They are trained how to plant horror within the passengers by doing such actions. Even pens and pencils can be used for that purpose. They can do it, and they can overcome any plane because they are very well physically trained, and they are very strong. They can overtake a plane in a very efficient manner. ''Training will include the way they would sit in the plane, how they enter the plane.... They will, for example, sit in twos, and they will assign who will sit to the right of the other guy, and who will sit to the other side. Two will sit in the front, two will sit in the back and two will sit, for example, in the middle. They are trained to jump all at one time, and make a declaration that 'We are going to take over the plane. And nobody [move], don't move, don't make any moves.'''
 
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