Why War? - An email I received

adams

Golden Member
Sep 12, 2000
1,412
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0
Just thought I'd share this email I received. I don't expect everyone (or most) to agree with it, but it seems important nevertheless.

:)



> My dear friends -
>
> The drums are really beating now - it's incredible to me how
single-mindedly media in this country, including nominally
'independent' and semi-critical outlets (NPR, etc.) are engaged
in not only preparing the American people for war, but creating
the emotional and psychological conditions that will preclude
even the public consideration of any other options. We ARE
going to war is the message, and no matter what happens or who
we go to war with, it will be justified because of the horror of
9.11 - I'm scared.
>
> I've personally never seen such a massive forced
homogenizing of opinion as we're witnessing today. The
declarations by political leaders and media figures that "all
Americans are united in the same feeling, the same mind,"
"constitutional liberties may be too much to bear," and "this is
a war of good vs. evil, and good will prevail," are absolutely
terrifiying to me. The sinister confluence of religion,
patriotism, and militarism into this newly focused 'Americanism'
is something I don't feel that I've witnessed before to this
degree, not during the Gulf War, or certainly any time since.
>
> For as much and as lightly as the term 'fascism' has been
tossed around since I can remember, I feel like we're starting
to witness it's naked, public face, as justified by this
terrible tradgedy, using the pain of the American people, and
others, to nourish itself like a great invisible vampire.
>
> The *only* media voice of reason or critical reflection that
I've heard since the attack was that of Vladimir Pozner (sp?),
one of the major networks' chief correspondents in Moscow - he
basically said that no amount of killing other people will in
any way prevent this kind of disaster from happening again in
the future - that in fact, it will guarantee more of the same.
That only by trying to fathom the reasons WHY people are willing
to kill themselves and so many others for their ideas will we be
able to stop this madness - and then only by addressing those
reasons concretely. That when people are fed, when people can
be involved in some kind of political process, when people have
a home of their own, only then will all of us be safe from
terrorism. But such declarations by any political leaders would
be suicidal right now, as these ideas could only be seen as a
retreat, a defeat, an abdication of the political & military
initiative we've been delivered.
>
> That correspondent's notions seem absolutely self-evident to
me, yet I found myself struck still and silent in shock and
disbelief that he was being allowed to say such things, that he
wasn't cut off or garbled by some mysterious interference or
loss of satellite connection - because these simple ideas are
simply not being made part of the dialogue in this country right
now - maybe it's just too soon, but I don't think that's the
problem.
>
> My fear is that making these ideas public will soon be done
at serious personal risk, that as the nation as a whole is swept
up into this wave of uncritical, unreflective, uncompassionate
war hysteria that these individuals will be considered traitors
- as un-American as ethnic Arabs or Muslims as a whole. Islamic
centers are being shot up and vandalized, mosques are receiving
death threats... brown people generally appear to be at
increasing risk now - I've heard from two people (one Indian)
who've been refused service at establishments that don't cater
to "terrorists."
>
> I feel that all people of conscience, compassion and a view
beyond the immediate, visceral (and understandable) impulse to
retaliate must make it our duty to bring a message of
compassion, restraint and deep, critical focus to everyone we
meet, to do whatever we can to keep this situation from getting
even further out of control.
>
> If you disagree with any of this, or just wish I'd left you
alone, I apologize. Thanks for indulging me with this email,
it's something I needed to write.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
That only by trying to fathom the reasons WHY people are willing
to kill themselves and so many others for their ideas will we be
able to stop this madness - and then only by addressing those
reasons concretely. That when people are fed, when people can
be involved in some kind of political process, when people have
a home of their own, only then will all of us be safe from
terrorism


Bin Laden was a son of a billionaire. His family has political clout. He hates you if you are not a Muslim. He will always hate you. He wants to see America destroyed. You can feed Bin Ladens people, you can build them homes and they will still hate you and want to see you killed.
 

HowardStern

Banned
Jun 28, 2001
1,124
1
0
I also disagree with large portions of it. If we take 1 country and make an example out of it by really punishing them in a major way then nobody else will dare hurt us again.
 

wnied

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
4,206
0
76
I also disagree with large portions of it. If we take 1 country and make an example out of it by really punishing them in a major way then nobody else will dare hurt us again.

Thinking like that, is what got us in the position we are currently in. We bombed Libya, we bombed Iran, We bombed Iraq. We still lost 5000+ to four commercial jet airliners on suicidal missions. Yes! I want heads to roll! But more and more, its begining to look like we'll never have a target to kill. Bomb Afghanistan? Yes, they harbor him. Then what? Where do we go from there? Kill as many celebrating Afghans as possible? How do you discern the innocent Afghani people from those who run the taliban? Most of these people live in conditions that remind you of times of the bible. Live in caves, mud huts and under makeshift tents. Blowing them to smithereens makes them more and more angry, hating the U.S. even more and more. I admit, there is no "Easy" answer to what needs to be done. Someone needs to be punished for what has occured, theres no doubt about it. But Who and what the target of our anger needs to be is a decision I hope our government makes after looking hard and long at our current situation. And as for possible reprisal attacks for any actions we take...I say fine. We've thought ourselves to be safe from these attacks for too long. Now, its evident that we need to take our security more seriously. If anything good came from this tragedy, its that security and unity have made a major come back into our society. Our petty bickering has been put aside for the greater good of our people.

:|~wnied~:|
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< I think we deserve revenge >>

I think that the US's attack will be worthy of revenge by the terrorists. Same thing.

"The thought that there's honor in war is merely an illusion."

There's a solution to any problem, but this solution is never war. War is, simply put, wrong.
 

Zach

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
3,400
1
81


<< Bin Laden was a son of a billionaire. His family has political clout. He hates you if you are not a Muslim. He will always hate you. He wants to see America destroyed. You can feed Bin Ladens people, you can build them homes and they will still hate you and want to see you killed. >>



What an excellent over simplification and uinenlightened answer. Maybe they don't like thier society changing? Maybe we, Americans, don't know when to leave other countries alone? Ever notice that? We send tourists and annoy them, try to control thier economics, expect to be the center of the world...

Not that what the terrorists did were an acceptable reaction, but still. There's always more than one side to an issue. That's what the email is getting at. Just beating the crap out of them wont help. Like if you have a group of friends, and you all go beat up some gang or something. Is that the end of that? Of course not. The gang may come back, they may have friends, affiliated gangs, other peer groups of yours may not appreciate what you did, etc etc.
 

Zach

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
3,400
1
81


<< Parts of it sounded like the Communist Manifesto or something. >>



Or you are insecure with straying from the pack?
 

Oalex

Senior member
Jan 12, 2001
290
0
0
Zach:



<< What an excellent over simplification and uinenlightened answer. Maybe they don't like thier society changing? Maybe we, Americans, don't know when to leave other countries alone? Ever notice that? We send tourists and annoy them, try to control thier economics, expect to be the center of the world... >>



Very good point there!
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,539
17,130
136


<< Thinking like that, is what got us in the position we are currently in. We bombed Libya, we bombed Iran, We bombed Iraq. We still lost 5000+ to four commercial jet airliners on suicidal missions. Yes! I want heads to roll! But more and more, its begining to look like we'll never have a target to kill. Bomb Afghanistan? Yes, they harbor him. Then what? Where do we go from there? Kill as many celebrating Afghans as possible? How do you discern the innocent Afghani people from those who run the taliban? Most of these people live in conditions that remind you of times of the bible. Live in caves, mud huts and under makeshift tents. Blowing them to smithereens makes them more and more angry, hating the U.S. even more and more. I admit, there is no "Easy" answer to what needs to be done. Someone needs to be punished for what has occured, theres no doubt about it. But Who and what the target of our anger needs to be is a decision I hope our government makes after looking hard and long at our current situation. And as for possible reprisal attacks for any actions we take...I say fine. We've thought ourselves to be safe from these attacks for too long. Now, its evident that we need to take our security more seriously. If anything good came from this tragedy, its that security and unity have made a major come back into our society. Our petty bickering has been put aside for the greater good of our people.

:|~wnied~:|
>>



I'm glad at least there's SOMEONE else who agrees with what I've been saying...
 

Zwingle

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2001
1,925
0
0


<< I think we deserve revenge >>



are you saying we should retaliate in revenge

or.....that thw WTC incident was revenge?

The WTC was an act of revenge against our gov't.
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
1
0


<< << Parts of it sounded like the Communist Manifesto or something. >> >>






<< Or you are insecure with straying from the pack? >>



Nope, the self absorbed rhetoric seemed to me oddly reminiscent of Communist propaganda. I've never been part of the "pack". I wonder why my response disturbed you so much? What pack are you part of?
 

Capn

Platinum Member
Jun 27, 2000
2,716
0
0
I disagree. His points may very well be valid, in due time. He makes gross oversimplifications. He assumes (incorrectly I believe) that U.S. response will be indiscriminate and target innocent civilians it seems. If there is an attack it will be against the afghani government, not the people.

Russia held Afghanistan for around ten years and were far more brutal than the American led team will be. Yet, they attacked the U.S. It seems that if it were the fact that military intervention in Afghanistan causes only more terrorism, that Russia would be their main enemy.

When people say you can't fight terrorists with a conventional war, they are right. But Osama and his associates are not conventional terrorists. They are infinitely more advanced than a car bomb by a market or a suicide bomber on a bus. If we can cripple his network, and then follow up by doing our best to restrict the growth of new networks and those which already exist, we will place a crippling blow in the war against terrorism.

There is a time for justice and a time for diplomacy. Diplomacy has failed.
 

Zach

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
3,400
1
81


<< He assumes (incorrectly I believe) that U.S. response will be indiscriminate and target innocent civilians it seems. If there is an attack it will be against the afghani government, not the people. >>



A major problem is that some people want indescriminate attacks. I've listend to some news shows with people calling in, one man tried to give a lesson on what a tactile nuke is and why now is the time to use it.
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
1
0
Not everyone wants to nuke the whole region. There are a few freaks who want to kill everyone in the Middle East and suddenly people think that everyone in America is ready to push the red button. It's not that way. And besides, our leaders are not going to indescriminantly kill everyone. It doesn't make sense fiscally, militarily, or politically.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Elledan "There's a solution to any problem, but this solution is never war. War is, simply put, wrong. "

Should the US have stayed out of WWII? You would be speaking German otherwise.

What will happen if we simply stay home in this case and ignore the terrorist acts that have been committed, will they end?

You say there is a solution to any problem. I say the world is not there yet. Perhaps some glorious day in the future, but not yet.

War is the last act of failed politics. The politicians in Europe miscalculated and appeased and ended up dragging the world through two wars.


 

351Cleveland

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2001
1,381
6
81
Elledan - Then solve this problem. If war is not going to be the answer, you need to find an alternative. We have asked, we have pleased, we have haqd OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRIES ask. This guy ONLY WANTS TO KILL AMERICANS! His government is SUPPORTING him. Now tell me that here is a better solution.
 

351Cleveland

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2001
1,381
6
81
It is SOO easy for you guys to spout peace and love when it isn't YOUR largest city that has been smoldering for a FVCKING WEEK! How do you solve a problem with an enemy that does not play by the rules? They target CIVILIANS!! They make NO distinction. Now, tell me again what the appropriate response is. How do we keep these people from doing it again? Why are you defending them? Was it not the US that was blown to hell last week?

I don't understand where you get off thinking that this act of war should go unanswered. I am at a loss.
 

351Cleveland

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2001
1,381
6
81
Zwingle -

Why do you condemn the US so much? Why do you continue to live here if this country revolts you so much? We were the target of a terrorist attack. What should we do? You seem to have all the answers, so tell us. How should the United States answer this challenge?
 

351Cleveland

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2001
1,381
6
81
Zach -

It is not an over-simplification. It is dead on. This guy hates the United States and all other Western Countries. Period. He has proclaimed PUBLICALLY that it is the "duty" of every Muslim to kill as many Americans as he can. Do you hear the United States making any such declarations? Hell no. We act when called. We act when people are being oppressed. I suppose you think it was RIGHT for Iraq to invade Kuwait? Are you trying to tell me it didn't happen? We are expected to come to the aid of countries in need in terms of humanitarian and economic aid. When we do, we get NO THANKS, when we do not, we are condemned. It is damned if we do, damned if we don't. What would make you happy? What action by the United States would satisfy you? What if your family had been in that building or on one of those planes?

I just do not get it.
 

CyrixMII333

Banned
Dec 31, 2000
204
0
0
The most dangerous human we ever encountered. If we can convince that he is satan from hell, his people will kill him immediately and save us the trouble of having to do so ourselve. The terrorist who commited this suicide mission are the ugliest bunch I have seen. Not only in appearance but also in personality as well. Problem is who are they going to listen? us or Osama? Such Ancient culture quite laughable by most. I am wondering how they survived after all this time. The survival of the fittest I guess prove they are strong or maybe just got lucky and didn't perish like the dinosaur did?



<< But Osama and his associates are not conventional terrorists. They are infinitely more advanced than a car bomb by a market or a suicide bomber on a bus. If we can cripple his network, and then follow up by doing our best to restrict the growth of new networks and those which already exist, we will place a crippling blow in the war against terrorism.

There is a time for justice and a time for diplomacy. Diplomacy has failed.
>>

 

Zwingle

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2001
1,925
0
0


<< Zwingle - >>



<< Why do you condemn the US so much? Why do you continue to live here if this country revolts you so much? We were the target of a terrorist attack. What should we do? You seem to have all the answers, so tell us. How should the United States answer this challenge? >>


I have not condemned the US in any of my posts. You just perceive them that way because I don't see things the way you do. I have been attacked on numerous occassions because of my beliefs on this and many other issues. This is exactly what the US has done to many countries. Attacked them because their belief or political system was not what the US liked. I agree with most of you that the US needs to find and punish the people that levelled the WTC and planned the attacks.