Why Toyota wants GM to be saved.

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
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A GM failure would cause production problems, crush already weak demand and potentially open the door to low-cost competitors.

Last Updated: December 15, 2008: 5:39 PM ET


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Detroit's Big Three aren't the only automotive companies that want to see the government step in with some much needed financial help.

Overseas automakers, most notably Toyota Motor, all endorse some form of federal aid to keep General Motors (GM, Fortune 500), Chrysler LLC and possibly Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) out of bankruptcy.

The Senate killed an effort to get the automakers a stopgap loan last week and now the Bush administration has said it is looking at providing the automakers help from the $700 billion approved to bailout banks and Wall Street firms.

"We support measures to help the industry," said Toyota Motor (TM) spokeswoman Mira Sleilati. "We just want a strong, competitive healthy industry."

This may seem surprising at first, especially when you consider that much of the opposition to the auto bailout was from senators from Southern states home to auto plants operated by Asian auto companies, such as Alabama and South Carolina. But the Asian automakers insist they never lobbied against such help for the Big Three.

And this makes sense once you take a closer look at the dynamics of the auto industry and how intertwined the fates of all the companies are.

Here's why Toyota, Honda Motor (HMC) and other Asian auto manufacturers clearly believe they are all better off with GM and Chrysler surviving than if they go out of business.

Collateral damage

The overseas automakers, who between them produce more than 3 million vehicles a year at U.S. plants, all worry their production would be hurt if one of the U.S. automakers went under. That's because a Big Three failure would likely lead to widespread bankruptcies in the auto parts supplier industry.

Erich Merkle, lead auto analyst with the consulting firm Crowe Horwath LLP, said there is much overlap between the automakers' suppliers. Since most parts in an automobile have only a single supplier producing them, the disruptions in production will be severe and prolonged.

"It could take months for a Toyota to work through that and resume normal production," he said.

Merkle said the current network of auto suppliers, manufacturers and dealerships have worked well for the overseas automakers, who have posted steady gains in their U.S. market share during the past few years.

Besides sharing suppliers, many dealers sell both U.S. and overseas brands. So the failure of a U.S. automaker could hurt the overseas manufacturers' dealer network and their sales as well, Merkle said.

"There would be a severe disturbance in the force," he quipped.

Economic shockwaves

A collapse of one of the Big Three would also probably cause an even more severe hit to the U.S. economy. That would further eat into demand for U.S. auto sales, which hit a 26-year low in November.

"The U.S. economy would be in shambles," Merkle said. "The robust U.S. economy that Toyota and the others depend on would suddenly not be as lucrative."

The overseas automakers agree that the last thing they need is for the U.S. economy to slow further. The U.S. is the largest market for Toyota, Honda and Nissan (NSANY). All are expected to report lower U.S. sales this year for the first time ever.

"We want to get the economy back," said Michael Stanton, CEO of the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers, which represents most of the Asian automakers with plants in the U.S. "Everyone is hurting at this level of sales. Everybody is either cutting back or shutting down."

The latest cutbacks came Monday when Toyota announced it was putting plans to open a new plant in Mississippi on hold indefinitely, even though it is about 90% complete. The plant was set to start building the first domestically produced Prius in 2011.

While the overseas automakers would be certain to eventually pick up more U.S. market share if a U.S. automaker stopped doing business, Merkle said the need to sell off the inventory of the failed automaker at fire sale prices would depress all prices in the industry in the short-term.

Enter new competition

The final concern for the overseas automakers is a longer-term problem. If a U.S. automaker fails, that could open the door for a Chinese or Indian automaker to buy up the assets of the failed automaker and create a new low-cost competitor in the U.S.

"You could open the door for foreign companies to buy distressed assets at rock bottom prices," he said. He pointed to India's Tata (TTM) and China's Geely, as two automakers in the developing world that are already on record as being interested in expanding into western markets like the United States.

"Tata and Geely would be incredibly open to brownfield sites," he said, referring to the term used to describe companies that buy discarded industrial facilities.

Toyota and Honda have already felt the effects of competition from other upstarts firsthand in the U.S.

Korean manufacturers Hyundai and Kia have eaten into the sales of Toyota's and Honda's small, inexpensive vehicles, but that growth has taken decades.

Merkle said it might take a year or more for a new competitor to get off the ground. But by grabbing U.S. automakers' assets, vehicle designs and dealerships, an incoming Indian or Chinese manufacturer could quickly become a low-cost threat much quicker than the Koreans.

The established automakers like Toyota and Honda are also unlikely to look to buy the distressed assets themselves because they have never used acquisitions or purchases of other companies' assets as a method of growing.

Instead, they have always built their own facilities from the ground up in order to expand. Merkle said that is unlikely to change, even if the more productive facilities of U.S. automakers were put up for sale by a bankruptcy court, Merkle said.

While companies such as Tata or Geely are likely to eventually enter the U.S. anyway, Merkle said the vacuum caused by the failure of GM or Chrysler could jumpstart those efforts and bring them to the market years earlier than expected

While ive been saying the top part, for weeks now, people have ignored it. The last part has always been there, but it is one good thing that could come, but would take 3+ years to occur and we would be in financial shambles if it were to occur.
 

venkman

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2007
4,950
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I posted pretty much all of this in an OT post at the end of last week and was laughed at. Looks like Toyota agrees with me! :)
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
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Heh, people have been saying this and it was basically shrugged off. Nice to hear it straight from the horse's mouth, thanks for posting this OP.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
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Originally posted by: venkman
I posted pretty much all of this in an OT post at the end of last week and was laughed at. Looks like Toyota agrees with me! :)

Except the vast majority of your reasoning was incorrect and different than from the OP's article. $35k for a Civic? Not.
 

Leon

Platinum Member
Nov 14, 1999
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Toyota is more than welcome to provide a loan, just leave the government out of it.
 

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
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Originally posted by: Leon
Toyota is more than welcome to provide a loan, just leave the government out of it.

how is toyota supposed to provide a loan when they are predicted to lose $1B this quarter, yes they have money, but they dont have any where near enough... (not that the gov't does)
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
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Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
Originally posted by: Leon
Toyota is more than welcome to provide a loan, just leave the government out of it.

how is toyota supposed to provide a loan when they are predicted to lose $1B this quarter, yes they have money, but they dont have any where near enough... (not that the gov't does)

Hold on.

I think any constituency with an interest in seeing GM survive should be asked for concessions. That includes the UAW, taxpayers, parts suppliers, executives, retirees, and even competitors.

The failure of GM could send shock-waves through the auto industry and it's in Toyota's interest to help.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
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Here is me not caring, Toyota obviously has their bottom line and best interests in mind...if they feel a little pain in this then so be it. Funny they want the economy back to where it was before, speaking for myself I would rather these companies restructure and become more efficient and then get back to where they were (hopefully) rather than just giving them a handout and allow them to continue on in their old excessive ways.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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0
That competition point simply doesn't make any sense. Honda/Toyota have more capital and could buy these distressed assets with more power than Tata.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
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Especially this economy, a new car is a luxury for many, when housing, food on the table, electricity and heat are more important...doesn't matter what brand.

At this point in time these companies are manufacturing a luxury item and since that is the case they should not be surprised that their goods are not moving as well as they they have in the past.

They should all be prepared for this kind of downturn in any economy, it happens all the time, this time just happens to be more severe than most, and will last longer than most.

They can lay off a few and trim some fat, or suffer the effects of a complete shut down....not too many choices.

They are supposed to have people in place that can read the economy and suggest ideas that can help them weather the storm.

Good, strong businesses do it all the time...they either adapt, or die off and something or someone steps in to take their place.

"It could take months for a Toyota to work through that and resume normal production," he said.

so...uhhh....they can't suffer through a "few months"?

Sounds like Toyota has the same people in charge as GM.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,672
42,274
136
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Especially this economy, a new car is a luxury for many, when housing, food on the table, electricity and heat are more important...doesn't matter what brand.

At this point in time these companies are manufacturing a luxury item and since that is the case they should not be surprised that their goods are not moving as well as they they have in the past.

They should all be prepared for this kind of downturn in any economy, it happens all the time, this time just happens to be more severe than most, and will last longer than most.

They can lay off a few and trim some fat, or suffer the effects of a complete shut down....not too many choices.

They are supposed to have people in place that can read the economy and suggest ideas that can help them weather the storm.

Good, strong businesses do it all the time...they either adapt, or die off and something or someone steps in to take their place.

"It could take months for a Toyota to work through that and resume normal production," he said.

so...uhhh....they can't suffer through a "few months"?

Sounds like Toyota has the same people in charge as GM.

The collapse of the Big 3 along with their suppliers would be another major blow to the US economy further drying up major purchases. That combined with months of parts shortages where you have very few cars coming off the lines for the people who might actually want to buy them (major revenue loss) would increase their own cash burn dramatically. Significant parts of their dealer network going tits up probably isn't going to help either.

You can only realistically plan for so much.

 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
That competition point simply doesn't make any sense. Honda/Toyota have more capital and could buy these distressed assets with more power than Tata.

with what money? the big 3 japanese brands aren't in particularly good shape either.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: bozack
Here is me not caring, Toyota obviously has their bottom line and best interests in mind...if they feel a little pain in this then so be it. Funny they want the economy back to where it was before, speaking for myself I would rather these companies restructure and become more efficient and then get back to where they were (hopefully) rather than just giving them a handout and allow them to continue on in their old excessive ways.

Quite right. I don't understand why business as usual is the desired outcome of this whole financial mess. The reason we're in this mess is the business as usual wasn't working. If we just get back to where we were, we'll only end up where we are.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: Skoorb
That competition point simply doesn't make any sense. Honda/Toyota have more capital and could buy these distressed assets with more power than Tata.

with what money? the big 3 japanese brands aren't in particularly good shape either.
I think if they believe Tata can find a few billion to buy assets they probably can, too.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Especially this economy, a new car is a luxury for many, when housing, food on the table, electricity and heat are more important...doesn't matter what brand.

At this point in time these companies are manufacturing a luxury item and since that is the case they should not be surprised that their goods are not moving as well as they they have in the past.

They should all be prepared for this kind of downturn in any economy, it happens all the time, this time just happens to be more severe than most, and will last longer than most.

They can lay off a few and trim some fat, or suffer the effects of a complete shut down....not too many choices.

They are supposed to have people in place that can read the economy and suggest ideas that can help them weather the storm.

Good, strong businesses do it all the time...they either adapt, or die off and something or someone steps in to take their place.

"It could take months for a Toyota to work through that and resume normal production," he said.

so...uhhh....they can't suffer through a "few months"?

Sounds like Toyota has the same people in charge as GM.

The collapse of the Big 3 along with their suppliers would be another major blow to the US economy further drying up major purchases. That combined with months of parts shortages where you have very few cars coming off the lines for the people who might actually want to buy them (major revenue loss) would increase their own cash burn dramatically. Significant parts of their dealer network going tits up probably isn't going to help either.

You can only realistically plan for so much.

true, but if my history is correct, we have been here.....SEVERAL times.

So you would think that the automotive production industry would do what they could to insulate themselves from the effects of such an economic situation instead assuming that taxpayer will be willing to spot them a few billion.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,672
42,274
136
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Especially this economy, a new car is a luxury for many, when housing, food on the table, electricity and heat are more important...doesn't matter what brand.

At this point in time these companies are manufacturing a luxury item and since that is the case they should not be surprised that their goods are not moving as well as they they have in the past.

They should all be prepared for this kind of downturn in any economy, it happens all the time, this time just happens to be more severe than most, and will last longer than most.

They can lay off a few and trim some fat, or suffer the effects of a complete shut down....not too many choices.

They are supposed to have people in place that can read the economy and suggest ideas that can help them weather the storm.

Good, strong businesses do it all the time...they either adapt, or die off and something or someone steps in to take their place.

"It could take months for a Toyota to work through that and resume normal production," he said.

so...uhhh....they can't suffer through a "few months"?

Sounds like Toyota has the same people in charge as GM.

The collapse of the Big 3 along with their suppliers would be another major blow to the US economy further drying up major purchases. That combined with months of parts shortages where you have very few cars coming off the lines for the people who might actually want to buy them (major revenue loss) would increase their own cash burn dramatically. Significant parts of their dealer network going tits up probably isn't going to help either.

You can only realistically plan for so much.

true, but if my history is correct, we have been here.....SEVERAL times.

So you would think that the automotive production industry would do what they could to insulate themselves from the effects of such an economic situation instead assuming that taxpayer will be willing to spot them a few billion.

It would be hard to justify 100% independent or in house supply chains for every auto company in the world. That's what it would take to even partially insulate the other companies.




 

Falloutboy

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2003
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0
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whats GMs market Cap? couldn't Toyota take 10-15B and buy a pretty large minority stake in GM with the way GMs stock is atm?
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
No, buying shares on the open market is a terrible way to try to take a significant stake in a company. GM's market cap is only about $3 billion ( http://finance.google.com/finance?q=gm ) but that doesn't mean you can buy 49% of it for 1.5 billion. Every time you buy shares the price goes up, and a lot of the equity is not trading on the open market; it's sitting in retirement accounts, deferred comp plans, executive accounts, etc.

If Toyota wanted to take a significant minority stake they would (I imagine - though I'm really out of my element here) hire an investment bank to value GM's businesses and put together a deal. The deal would value GM at significantly more than $3 billion, but part of the deal would probably involve lucrative Warrents for Toyota to buy more shares if the price goes up, and probably seniority over existing shareholders.