Why the bailout will be a disaster

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Liquidity is in Eye of the Holder


We are being told loudly and repeatedly that the gargantuan mortgage bail-out package is necessary because illiquid mortgage-backed securities are clogging our financial arteries, threatening the economic equivalent of cardiac arrest. The idea of the plan is to transfer these supposedly valuable, but currently unmarketable, assets to the government so that private institutions can freely lend once more. The monumental flaw in this argument is that the mortgage backed securities are in fact highly liquid, just not at the prices the owners would like to receive.

Mortgage bonds are just like houses. They won?t sell if the owners stubbornly refuse to drop the price. However, they can find buyers if they acknowledge reality, and lower their expectations accordingly.

The government tells us that if these assets are held to maturity their full value will eventually be realized, and that it is only because of a lack of current liquidity that their value is not reflected in the market. However, as many private transactions have shown us in recent months, these assets will find buyers at the right price. These are not overly exotic assets but relatively straight forward mortgage obligations. The inability to find buyers is not a function of liquidity but simply of price. The government is seeking to ?create liquidity? by overpaying.

The government?s assumptions about the ?held to maturity? value of these mortgages completely understate the likelihood of widespread default. Some of the ?illiquid? assets represent tranches of mortgage-backed securities that will be completely wiped out. Even the higher quality tranches will suffer severe losses due to mortgages that will inevitably go bad.

For example, take a $500,000 adjustable rate mortgage on a condo in Las Vegas that has a current value of only $250,000. To assume that this asset can be safely held to maturity is absurd, when in all likelihood the borrower will default shortly after the rate re-sets, even if the borrower has not yet shown signs of distress. Of course such a mortgage would be completely illiquid if one tried to sell it anywhere near par, but would be extremely liquid if priced to reflect a more realistic value; say 35 cents on the dollar. But if the government pays prices that fairly factors in likely defaults, it will bankrupt the very institutions it is trying to bail out.

Another factor that has not yet been considered is that that the government has already indicated that it will try to avoid foreclosures by reducing the principal and interest rates on the loans it acquires to levels current homeowners can afford. This will immediately eliminate the delusion of the government recouping its ?investment? as even if held to maturity the mortgages will never be worth anything close to what the government pays.

Also missing in the discussion is the concept of the time value of money. Even if a substantial percentage of the $700 billion is eventually recovered, it will still represent a huge loss for taxpayers who theoretically have to come up with the cash today to buy the mortgages. Further, the inflationary nature of the bailout ensures a substantial rise in long term interest rates. This will further suppress the present values of the low coupon mortgages the government will be restructuring.

The moral hazard implicit in the government?s willingness to re-write troubled mortgages ensures that the plan will spark a wave of new delinquencies by borrowers looking to cash in on the windfall. Since troubled loans will no longer be foreclosed by lenders but instead sold to the government, the rational choice for many homeowners will be to stop making their mortgage payments and wait for a better deal from the government. This reality will eventually push the cost of this bailout well above $2 trillion.

In addition to the government bailout, distressed lenders are looking to the suspension of ?mark to market? accounting rules as a means of salvation. These rules require institutions to value their mortgage assets according to the most recently traded price. However, suspending these rules will not make the losses go away. Rather it will simply allow lenders to pretend that the losses do not exist.

Armed with such fantasies, banks could pretend that their mortgage assets had more value, and that their balance sheets were well capitalized. They would not need to raise more capital in order to fund new loans. But, just as a person with no sensitivity to pain runs the risk of catastrophic injury, such a move would encourage financial institutions to take greater risks which, in the end, will produce more bankruptcies and greater losses.

In fact, the Senate version of the bailout bill, which authorizes a suspension of mark- to-market, also increases the dollar limit on FDIC insured deposits from $100,000 to $250,000 (with no extra money budgeted to fund the increased taxpayer liability). Only in Washington would a bill pass which simultaneous makes banks more likely to fail while increasing taxpayer exposure when they do!

For a more in depth analysis of our financial problems and the inherent dangers they pose for the U.S. economy and U.S. dollar denominated investments, read my new book ?Crash Proof: How to Profit from the Coming Economic Collapse.?

Text

Peter Schiff explains in simple terms why the bailout will be a disaster. Distressed homeowners are going to milk this bailout for everything they can get and the cost to the economy will be enormous. A downgrading of U.S. treasury bonds could be in the pipeline given the fact that the federal government has now become the lender of last resort for everyone.

 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
The bailout simply cannot be a disaster. Obama fully supported it, and voted for it. So, it is impossible that it was a bad decision.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
I have read far more convincing opinions that, if the US merely follows sound economic policies for awhile, the US could benefit greatly from the bailout and return billions to the taxpayer.
All we need to do is end the Bush disastrous economic policies and enforce free trade and we only have a few difficult years, then we will be back in a surplus situation.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: bamacre
The bailout simply cannot be a disaster. Obama fully supported it, and voted for it. So, it is impossible that it was a bad decision.

Yeah, just like the telco immunities. He knows how to stand up for the people!
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
The bailout simply cannot be a disaster. Obama fully supported it, and voted for it. So, it is impossible that it was a bad decision.

Unproductive my friend.

I think that almost no one knows how this will all work out.

I know that I am certainly paranoid about it.

I have no experience with something of this scale and can honestly say I don't know what the right thing to do is.

Both candidates support the bailout, so unless you can educate the entire public on this matter, i'm guessing we need to start thinking in terms of the bailout instead of bitching about it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,567
6,710
126
Another mainstream gold bug economist.....weeeeeeeee

Just the person we should turn to in times of disaster.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,567
6,710
126
There must be a whole cadre of crack pot Libertarians we can circle jerk to.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There must be a whole cadre of crack pot Libertarians we can circle jerk to.

Wow, good job, you just refuted everything I posted. :roll:

The Federal Government has suspended the laws of economics and we can all go back to business as usual.
 

Woofmeister

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2004
1,385
1
76
Originally posted by: techs
I have read far more convincing opinions that, if the US merely follows sound economic policies for awhile, the US could benefit greatly from the bailout and return billions to the taxpayer.
All we need to do is end the Bush disastrous economic policies and enforce free trade and we only have a few difficult years, then we will be back in a surplus situation.

Uh, isn't free trade a Bush economic policy?

In any event, the final bailout package did not include a suspension of the SEC's enforcement of compliance with mark to market accounting, so the issue is moot for now. The principal reason why the trial balloon of suspending mark to market accounting didn't go very far is that there is no reliable model with which to replace it and investors still need some way to value assets.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: techs
I have read far more convincing opinions that, if the US merely follows sound economic policies for awhile, the US could benefit greatly from the bailout and return billions to the taxpayer.

How is that going to be possible if the government is going to reduce the principal and interest on the loans?
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Peter Schiff explains in simple terms why the bailout will be a disaster. Distressed homeowners are going to milk this bailout for everything they can get and the cost to the economy will be enormous. A downgrading of U.S. treasury bonds could be in the pipeline given the fact that the federal government has now become the lender of last resort for everyone.

The same homeowners who knowingly and willingly borrowed well beyond their means to afford houses way out of their price range...shocking that they would consider taking advantage of anything.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,414
32,997
136
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Peter Schiff explains in simple terms why the bailout will be a disaster. Distressed homeowners are going to milk this bailout for everything they can get and the cost to the economy will be enormous. A downgrading of U.S. treasury bonds could be in the pipeline given the fact that the federal government has now become the lender of last resort for everyone.

The same homeowners who knowingly and willingly borrowed well beyond their means to afford houses way out of their price range...shocking that they would consider taking advantage of anything.

Then you'll be thrilled to learn that these homeowners don't get squat out of the bailout. However the greedy bankers that made these incredibly stupid loans and then spun towers of shimmering glass on top of these loans will walk away with billions.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: ironwing
Then you'll be thrilled to learn that these homeowners don't get squat out of the bailout. However the greedy bankers that made these incredibly stupid loans and then spun towers of shimmering glass on top of these loans will walk away with billions.

Caveat Emptor....

Lets get one thing straight, I personally feel this bailout is bullshit, but I have less of a problem with predatory lending than I do with pure stupidity.

People were either too dumb to know better, or even worse they knew better and still jumped on board hoping and gambling that everything would eventually work out...well it didn't.
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
0
Don't forget you there will soon be a strike on Iran (before inauguration day if Obama wins said the ex Mosad chief) and oil prices will go over the moon. It was a rise in gas prices that helped tip the subprime peeps. Now Cali and NY are lining up looking for their huge payout and I am sure more will follow. The gov will try to print their way out of this. Many people had jobs in the faux bubble economy and will be looking for benefits. America has gut wrenching days ahead of it that are only just beginning.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,414
32,997
136
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: ironwing
Then you'll be thrilled to learn that these homeowners don't get squat out of the bailout. However the greedy bankers that made these incredibly stupid loans and then spun towers of shimmering glass on top of these loans will walk away with billions.

Caveat Emptor....

Lets get one thing straight, I personally feel this bailout is bullshit, but I have less of a problem with predatory lending than I do with pure stupidity.

People were either too dumb to know better, or even worse they knew better and still jumped on board hoping and gambling that everything would eventually work out...well it didn't.

I guess I don't understand the logic of heaping blame on one party to a transaction that was clearly stupid but then giving the other party a free ride. Particularly in an asymmetric relationship like a mortgage where the bank wrote the contract, understood the legal meaning of each clause, had the credit info, knew the game inside out, and still made the stupid loan.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Liquidity is in Eye of the Holder


We are being told loudly and repeatedly that the gargantuan mortgage bail-out package is necessary because illiquid mortgage-backed securities are clogging our financial arteries, threatening the economic equivalent of cardiac arrest. The idea of the plan is to transfer these supposedly valuable, but currently unmarketable, assets to the government so that private institutions can freely lend once more. The monumental flaw in this argument is that the mortgage backed securities are in fact highly liquid, just not at the prices the owners would like to receive.

Mortgage bonds are just like houses. They won?t sell if the owners stubbornly refuse to drop the price. However, they can find buyers if they acknowledge reality, and lower their expectations accordingly.

The government tells us that if these assets are held to maturity their full value will eventually be realized, and that it is only because of a lack of current liquidity that their value is not reflected in the market. However, as many private transactions have shown us in recent months, these assets will find buyers at the right price. These are not overly exotic assets but relatively straight forward mortgage obligations. The inability to find buyers is not a function of liquidity but simply of price. The government is seeking to ?create liquidity? by overpaying.

The government?s assumptions about the ?held to maturity? value of these mortgages completely understate the likelihood of widespread default. Some of the ?illiquid? assets represent tranches of mortgage-backed securities that will be completely wiped out. Even the higher quality tranches will suffer severe losses due to mortgages that will inevitably go bad.

For example, take a $500,000 adjustable rate mortgage on a condo in Las Vegas that has a current value of only $250,000. To assume that this asset can be safely held to maturity is absurd, when in all likelihood the borrower will default shortly after the rate re-sets, even if the borrower has not yet shown signs of distress. Of course such a mortgage would be completely illiquid if one tried to sell it anywhere near par, but would be extremely liquid if priced to reflect a more realistic value; say 35 cents on the dollar. But if the government pays prices that fairly factors in likely defaults, it will bankrupt the very institutions it is trying to bail out.

Another factor that has not yet been considered is that that the government has already indicated that it will try to avoid foreclosures by reducing the principal and interest rates on the loans it acquires to levels current homeowners can afford. This will immediately eliminate the delusion of the government recouping its ?investment? as even if held to maturity the mortgages will never be worth anything close to what the government pays.

Also missing in the discussion is the concept of the time value of money. Even if a substantial percentage of the $700 billion is eventually recovered, it will still represent a huge loss for taxpayers who theoretically have to come up with the cash today to buy the mortgages. Further, the inflationary nature of the bailout ensures a substantial rise in long term interest rates. This will further suppress the present values of the low coupon mortgages the government will be restructuring.

The moral hazard implicit in the government?s willingness to re-write troubled mortgages ensures that the plan will spark a wave of new delinquencies by borrowers looking to cash in on the windfall. Since troubled loans will no longer be foreclosed by lenders but instead sold to the government, the rational choice for many homeowners will be to stop making their mortgage payments and wait for a better deal from the government. This reality will eventually push the cost of this bailout well above $2 trillion.

In addition to the government bailout, distressed lenders are looking to the suspension of ?mark to market? accounting rules as a means of salvation. These rules require institutions to value their mortgage assets according to the most recently traded price. However, suspending these rules will not make the losses go away. Rather it will simply allow lenders to pretend that the losses do not exist.

Armed with such fantasies, banks could pretend that their mortgage assets had more value, and that their balance sheets were well capitalized. They would not need to raise more capital in order to fund new loans. But, just as a person with no sensitivity to pain runs the risk of catastrophic injury, such a move would encourage financial institutions to take greater risks which, in the end, will produce more bankruptcies and greater losses.

In fact, the Senate version of the bailout bill, which authorizes a suspension of mark- to-market, also increases the dollar limit on FDIC insured deposits from $100,000 to $250,000 (with no extra money budgeted to fund the increased taxpayer liability). Only in Washington would a bill pass which simultaneous makes banks more likely to fail while increasing taxpayer exposure when they do!

For a more in depth analysis of our financial problems and the inherent dangers they pose for the U.S. economy and U.S. dollar denominated investments, read my new book ?Crash Proof: How to Profit from the Coming Economic Collapse.?

Text

Peter Schiff explains in simple terms why the bailout will be a disaster. Distressed homeowners are going to milk this bailout for everything they can get and the cost to the economy will be enormous. A downgrading of U.S. treasury bonds could be in the pipeline given the fact that the federal government has now become the lender of last resort for everyone.

Much of that is an educated guess. He could be right and I'd guess he has more chance of being right than the fools who voted for the bailout package.

He fails to mention a couple of points and makes one error

1 His error is his failure to note that there is almost NO MARKET for derivatives because no one knows what they are worth. To say that derivatives have value, is nonsense in this market. They COULD have value in the future. But, if they had value, private equity would be buying them at reduced prices. As we've seen with Buffet's recent buys, private equity is only interested if the deal is very very sweet. What's the lesson for the government? You won't be able to buy these derivatives for 20 cents on the dollar because the banks and investors won't sell or can't sell. This means the market for these securities will only exist if the government creates a market. But, what happens when the government goes to sell its derivatives? HA! De natha, mate. De natha.

2. Having said all of that, there are at least a dozen solid scenarios on the web of what could really happen, and the worst one is that the government loses 700 billion plus the interest on the bond sales to finance the buyout. I personally think this is highly likely.

3. Very few mortgages will actually be bought under this plan I FEAR. Derivatives are the bigges thorn in the sides of many investors as F AND F have bought a huge chunk of the actual mortgages already.

4. All of this ties up our credit and our budget and doesn't allow any wiggle room for other programs and other emergencies. What if we get involved in a major war next year? What if we have an infectious disease outbreak? 10 Katrinas? Etc. What ever happened to saving for a rainy day? LOL, we can't afford a single day without sunshine under this bailout. We are royally screwed for the next 10 years.

-Robert

 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: bamacre
The bailout simply cannot be a disaster. Obama fully supported it, and voted for it. So, it is impossible that it was a bad decision.

Both candidates support the bailout, so unless you can educate the entire public on this matter, i'm guessing we need to start thinking in terms of the bailout instead of bitching about it.

= Follow the mob mentality = Gambling.

Pray.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,093
45,077
136
Originally posted by: chess9


4. All of this ties up our credit and our budget and doesn't allow any wiggle room for other programs and other emergencies. What if we get involved in a major war next year? What if we have an infectious disease outbreak? 10 Katrinas? Etc. What ever happened to saving for a rainy day? LOL, we can't afford a single day without sunshine under this bailout. We are royally screwed for the next 10 years.

-Robert

This assumes the entire 700B and then some is lost, which I don't think is the likeliest of scenarios. I don't think the gov is going to be making money on many of these deals but I suspect only a fraction of the money will actually be lost.

The US still isn't on par with most of europe or asia with regards to its public debt to gdp ratio. While the current situation isn't great the government will still be able to create more debt to get funding should there be a further crisis. Though spending does need to be gotten under control in many ares since this trend can't continue indefinitely.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Guess who Paulson is going to have price these "toxic" MBS that the federal government (i.e. taxpayers) will be buying?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,567
6,710
126
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There must be a whole cadre of crack pot Libertarians we can circle jerk to.

Wow, good job, you just refuted everything I posted. :roll:

The Federal Government has suspended the laws of economics and we can all go back to business as usual.

No it wasn't a good job. I'm so used to nuttiness from some of the folk here that I jumped before I looked. I have felt forever that what we do that is wrong is invest in stuff that has no real value instead of investing in stuff that makes stuff we need. We need to create the goods that will get us energy independence and that's where our money should be spent, in my opinion. Thanks for the read.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
It occurred to me early on that $700B was certainly not going to cure an economic catastrophe. Either the catastrophe is unavoidable and/or would require into the trillions, or this has been overblown. In any case, I think the safe money is betting against the $700B stimulating lending to a massive degree and helping us avoid a recession/cleaning things up or any other such fanciful notions it was supposed to help with.

Anyway, I put it in my sig already :)
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
0
0
The reason it will fail is because not enough people on wall street will be hurt. If they are not hurt and rescued they will just make the same mistakes again. Why not the government will just bail them out again. Must be fun to gamble where you can only win if you lose the government covers your losses.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
It's always kind of sad to see laymans point to Peter Schiff as their best example of someone who "predicted" this crash with any accuracy. The only reason libertarians or Paulbots support the guy is exactly because he was Ron Paul?s economic advisor. Here are the facts on Schiff:

1) He uses the Webster definition of inflation instead of the accepted definition of inflation used by economists across the globe. He claims inflation is probably closer to 10% yet when pressed to come up with a methodology for calculating inflation, he falls flat on his face and literally says "I just know that the way the government calculates it is wrong".

2) He claims that the Federal Reserve, including Bernanke and others, purposefully lie and distort inflation numbers (among other statistics). When asked what Bernanke's motivation would be and why Greenspan, Volcker, and every Fed supervisor and economic advisor split between half a dozen Democrat/Republicans administrations over the last several decades didn't pick up on his conspiracy to trick consumers into using false inflation and economic statistics, Schiff is notably silent and has no explaination. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucDkoqwflF4

3) Schiff then goes on to make the laughably ridiculous claim that a collapse of the U.S. economy will benefit the rest of the global economy because of the eventual collapse of the U.S. dollar; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR_ssZzQyYQ. No mention that every crash and recession in modern history (81-82, 87, 91-92, 00-01) was followed or simultaneous with a global slowdown.

4) He is in fact a conspiracy theorist and has been on the Alex Jones show for a while now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5vGxCCdesM

Bottom line, Schiff doesn't understand why inflation is calculated the way it is because, sadly, he's not very well informed on marcoeconomic theory. Which makes some sense considering he was Ron Paul's economic adviser.