Why so little discussion of McCain's economic plan?

[Thump553]

I'm surprised there has been so little discussion, both here and by the pundits on TV, of the merits of McCain's economic plan, which is essentially a freeze and subsequent reduction of federal spending (except defense and entitlements) coupled with increased tax cuts-making the Bush tax cuts permanent and further reducing capital gains taxes.

Now it's been a long time since my economics degree, but it would appear to me that a freeze or even worse, a reduction in government spending could quite easily tip our economy from a recession to a depression. the government should be stimulating the economy, not contracting it.

Am I off base, or is the lack of discussion because:

1) McCain will change his economy plan in another 24 hours anyway,

2) McCain's focus on name calling provides such an easier to understand, and more sexy story-from both the left and right, or

3) the meltdown in the McCain -Palin campaign is a more sexy story?

 

[Genx87]

Because it in all reality it is irrelevant. With a near Super majority democrat congress. Even if McCain somehow pulls this out of his ass. None of his policies have a snowballs chance in hell of getting passed the way they are today.

 

[StageLeft]

Agree with genx, it's quickly approaching the point where it would be as relevant a discussion as Al Gore's economic plan for when he wins the election.

To address McCain's hypocrisy, though, he calls for a freeze in government spending and yet at the same time, in the same breath really, somehow has no problem with the largest single government expense in history. I don't get it, but I don't need to, because a week from now McCain will be finished.

 

[badnewcastle]

Why so little discussion about anything in Obama's past? How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

One thing about tax cuts that might be surprising to all of you against them...

Historically when taxes are cut, tax revenue goes up.
When taxes are raised, tax revenue has gone down.

 

[T2T III]

Along similar lines ...

I'm a bit worried about Barney Frank's recommendation to whack 25% off of the defense budget, give the potential issues that lie ahead with Venezueala, Russia/Georgia and Iran.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Because it in all reality it is irrelevant. With a near Super majority democrat congress. Even if McCain somehow pulls this out of his ass. None of his policies have a snowballs chance in hell of getting passed the way they are today.

This is most likely correct. McCain's promises and plans will never be passed. What will be passed is something that was not even close to that which was originally promised. I am sure Obama's stuff will not be passed quite as promised either because that is how things generally work, but it will not be nearly as severe as McCain's stuff.

Love it or hate it, it is really important to remember that people will not get what McCain wants regardless of whether or not he wins.

 

[Engineer]

Because there won't be a freeze. Quick, how many years in the last 100 have had a freeze or lower spending than the previous year? IIRC, there was one freeze and it didn't work.

 

[T2T III]

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Why so little discussion about anything in Obama's past? How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

One thing about tax cuts that might be surprising to all of you against them...

Historically when taxes are cut, tax revenue goes up.
When taxes are raised, tax revenue has gone down.

A few reasons ...

1) People are fed up with Bush, but will accept new change - at any cost.

2) Plenty of Democrats out there who spend zero or little time reading up on the facts, or lack thereof.

3) A large percentage of the voter base for Obama don't understand the benefits of capital gains tax cuts, corporate tax cuts, etc.

 

[Hugh H]

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Why so little discussion about anything in Obama's past? How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

One thing about tax cuts that might be surprising to all of you against them...

Historically when taxes are cut, tax revenue goes up.
When taxes are raised, tax revenue has gone down.

So I earn about 75k a year. I would benefit more under an Obama administration than a McCain one. Are you saying I'm not a hard-worker?

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Why so little discussion about anything in Obama's past? How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

One thing about tax cuts that might be surprising to all of you against them...

Historically when taxes are cut, tax revenue goes up.
When taxes are raised, tax revenue has gone down.

Do you seriously expect anyone to answer your question with stupid generalizations and zero knowledge of math and economics?

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: T2T III
Along similar lines ...

I'm a bit worried about Barney Frank's recommendation to whack 25% off of the defense budget, give the potential issues that lie ahead with Venezueala, Russia/Georgia and Iran.

For once I agree, I think a 25% cut in spending just like that is a really risky statement.

How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

You realize this is called progressive taxation and it's in place in every Western country, including the US. I found yesterday that .03% of the population pays 13% of the taxes. 66% pays something like 10-15%. Redistribution is already here. McCain has never argued against it, very few politicians have, they would just rather pretend they're against it but when push comes to shove of course they aren't.

 

[T2T III]

Originally posted by: Hugh H

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Why so little discussion about anything in Obama's past? How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

One thing about tax cuts that might be surprising to all of you against them...

Historically when taxes are cut, tax revenue goes up.
When taxes are raised, tax revenue has gone down.

So I earn about 75k a year. I would benefit more under an Obama administration than a McCain one. Are you saying I'm not a hard-worker?

Looking at some of the "simple" numbers, you would benefit. However, if you had investments and had to pay higher capital gains taxes, you'd probably pay more taxes under Obama. Also, if Obama were to choke growth by nailing corporations with higher taxes, there's a higher likelyhood of less jobs being created - or, even more layoffs to occur.

If you don't have any income coming in due to the loss of a job, then there's zero benefit under Obama's tax plan.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Thump553
I'm surprised there has been so little discussion, both here and by the pundits on TV, of the merits of McCain's economic plan, which is essentially a freeze and subsequent reduction of federal spending (except defense and entitlements) coupled with increased tax cuts-making the Bush tax cuts permanent and further reducing capital gains taxes.

Now it's been a long time since my economics degree, but it would appear to me that a freeze or even worse, a reduction in government spending could quite easily tip our economy from a recession to a depression. the government should be stimulating the economy, not contracting it.

Am I off base, or is the lack of discussion because:

1) McCain will change his economy plan in another 24 hours anyway,

2) McCain's focus on name calling provides such an easier to understand, and more sexy story-from both the left and right, or

3) the meltdown in the McCain -Palin campaign is a more sexy story?

How about

4) most anything a major party candidate says on the campaign trail is a lie anyway. Remember Clinton's middle class tax cut? How'd that work out? Once one of them wins, McCain or Obama (most likely) will both change their tunes regarding their economic plans.

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Thump553
I'm surprised there has been so little discussion, both here and by the pundits on TV, of the merits of McCain's economic plan

Well, McCain seems fine with not discussing it and only attacking, so why would anyone else talk about it? He decided his primary tactic will be to bash Obama rather than tout his own credentials. He has admitted he knows nothing about the economy and is obviously more concerned about professor Ayers than jobs.

 

[Xavier434]

"Fair" is also an interesting word in this country. There is no agreed upon universal fair way when it comes to taxation. There are justified arguments on both sides of the fence.

That's why I have given up on concentrating most of my attention on what is fair and refocusing on what is progressive. I have not forgotten about fairness, but I have stopped devoting my full attention to it. At the end of the day, I believe there is a balance to be achieved that is ever changing and right now that balance needle is tipping too far to one side.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: T2T III

Looking at some of the "simple" numbers, you would benefit. However, if you had investments and had to pay higher capital gains taxes, you'd probably pay more taxes under Obama. Also, if Obama were to choke growth by nailing corporations with higher taxes, there's a higher likelyhood of less jobs being created - or, even more layoffs to occur.

If you don't have any income coming in due to the loss of a job, then there's zero benefit under Obama's tax plan.

Of course, if you're the average investor who invests via a 401k plan you don't benefit at all from the current regressive capital gains tax rate as you'll pay the according to the regular income tax rates on any capital gains in your 401k.

If you lose your job it will likely be the result of the unchecked feeding frenzy we've seen since conservatives gutted regulation of the finance industry, or in the longer term, as a result of international labor arbitrage that conservatives have touted as the salvation of the world.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: T2T III

Originally posted by: Hugh H

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Why so little discussion about anything in Obama's past? How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

One thing about tax cuts that might be surprising to all of you against them...

Historically when taxes are cut, tax revenue goes up.
When taxes are raised, tax revenue has gone down.

So I earn about 75k a year. I would benefit more under an Obama administration than a McCain one. Are you saying I'm not a hard-worker?

Looking at some of the "simple" numbers, you would benefit. However, if you had investments and had to pay higher capital gains taxes, you'd probably pay more taxes under Obama. Also, if Obama were to choke growth by nailing corporations with higher taxes, there's a higher likelyhood of less jobs being created - or, even more layoffs to occur.

If you don't have any income coming in due to the loss of a job, then there's zero benefit under Obama's tax plan.

And I'm sure someone can come up with equally imaginative scenarios under which a McCain tax plan would look worse as well. The fact is that we don't know what's going to happen, and honestly I don't think there is an easy way to predict which will end up better in the long run...nearly ALL economics seem like voodoo economics sometimes. The fact is that conservatives constantly trumpet the idea that Obama is taking from people who work hard and giving money to people who don't, even though that opinion is totally unsupportable. Even your fantasy scenario doesn't back up what badnewcastle said, you're only arguing that the Obama tax plan may be bad in the long run. Which it could be (just like McCain's), but that doesn't mean you have a rational argument for the idea that Obama's plan is what badnewcastle described it as.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: T2T III

Originally posted by: Hugh H

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Why so little discussion about anything in Obama's past? How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

One thing about tax cuts that might be surprising to all of you against them...

Historically when taxes are cut, tax revenue goes up.
When taxes are raised, tax revenue has gone down.

So I earn about 75k a year. I would benefit more under an Obama administration than a McCain one. Are you saying I'm not a hard-worker?

Looking at some of the "simple" numbers, you would benefit. However, if you had investments and had to pay higher capital gains taxes, you'd probably pay more taxes under Obama. Also, if Obama were to choke growth by nailing corporations with higher taxes, there's a higher likelyhood of less jobs being created - or, even more layoffs to occur.

If you don't have any income coming in due to the loss of a job, then there's zero benefit under Obama's tax plan.

Nailing corporations? By closing loopholes?

Fail.

 

[T2T III]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
And I'm sure someone can come up with equally imaginative scenarios under which a McCain tax plan would look worse as well. The fact is that we don't know what's going to happen, and honestly I don't think there is an easy way to predict which will end up better in the long run...nearly ALL economics seem like voodoo economics sometimes. The fact is that conservatives constantly trumpet the idea that Obama is taking from people who work hard and giving money to people who don't, even though that opinion is totally unsupportable. Even your fantasy scenario doesn't back up what badnewcastle said, you're only arguing that the Obama tax plan may be bad in the long run. Which it could be (just like McCain's), but that doesn't mean you have a rational argument for the idea that Obama's plan is what badnewcastle described it as.

Did I mis-understand Obama when he was quoted two times indicating that he would "spread the wealth around" ??

 

[synapsetx]

Biggest issue for me is that it keeps getting more holes. Apparently the spending freeze doesn't include whatever issue of the day is, whether it is the military or aid for handicapped children.

 

[T2T III]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: T2T III

Originally posted by: Hugh H

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Why so little discussion about anything in Obama's past? How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

One thing about tax cuts that might be surprising to all of you against them...

Historically when taxes are cut, tax revenue goes up.
When taxes are raised, tax revenue has gone down.

So I earn about 75k a year. I would benefit more under an Obama administration than a McCain one. Are you saying I'm not a hard-worker?

Looking at some of the "simple" numbers, you would benefit. However, if you had investments and had to pay higher capital gains taxes, you'd probably pay more taxes under Obama. Also, if Obama were to choke growth by nailing corporations with higher taxes, there's a higher likelyhood of less jobs being created - or, even more layoffs to occur.

If you don't have any income coming in due to the loss of a job, then there's zero benefit under Obama's tax plan.

Nailing corporations? By closing loopholes?

Fail.

And, you don't think that high earner households that would greatly be impacted by Obama's tax plan wouldn't have their lawyers and investments folks searching for more loopholes for them, too?

 

[TheSlamma]

I wish he would include the biggest spending waste of money in his plan, useless wars.

Besides we already know Neo-Cons are not thrifty, they spend more then the most liberal grasshoppers out there.

 

[badnewcastle]

Originally posted by: Hugh H

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Why so little discussion about anything in Obama's past? How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

One thing about tax cuts that might be surprising to all of you against them...

Historically when taxes are cut, tax revenue goes up.
When taxes are raised, tax revenue has gone down.

So I earn about 75k a year. I would benefit more under an Obama administration than a McCain one. Are you saying I'm not a hard-worker?

No, you probably are... but if your employed, for example:

Your employer's tax liablity will be increasing and they will have to start making cuts and he wants to get rid of the payroll cap for people making 102k/year.

If your self employed under Obama's plan (which we don't even know what that is at this point because he keeps flopping), here is what happens to someone making self-employed making $251k/year:

1) Federal income tax increases by 8.7%
2) Payroll taxes increase (med/social securty etc...) by 7.5% x2 because you pay it for yourself twice now and for any other employee you pay once. So that's 15%...

15 + 8.7 = 23.7% tax increase for someone that is self-employed making $251k/year. Or in numbers their tax liability will increase by $59,487.00. Sure you can say only a small percentage make that much but they pay a large percentage of tax as it is.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: T2T III

Originally posted by: Rainsford
And I'm sure someone can come up with equally imaginative scenarios under which a McCain tax plan would look worse as well. The fact is that we don't know what's going to happen, and honestly I don't think there is an easy way to predict which will end up better in the long run...nearly ALL economics seem like voodoo economics sometimes. The fact is that conservatives constantly trumpet the idea that Obama is taking from people who work hard and giving money to people who don't, even though that opinion is totally unsupportable. Even your fantasy scenario doesn't back up what badnewcastle said, you're only arguing that the Obama tax plan may be bad in the long run. Which it could be (just like McCain's), but that doesn't mean you have a rational argument for the idea that Obama's plan is what badnewcastle described it as.

Did I mis-understand Obama when he was quoted two times indicating that he would "spread the wealth around" ??

If your understanding of an economic plan is limited to a 4 word soundbite, then yeah, you probably DO misunderstand it. It's certainly not a convincing counter-argument to the fact that Obama's tax plan looks better even for people making high 5 figure salaries, which is hardly a group of people who I'd say aren't working hard.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: T2T III

Originally posted by: Hugh H

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Why so little discussion about anything in Obama's past? How come nobody talks about his plans to make things more fair??? He wants to take money from people who worked really hard and give it to people who hardly work... hows that fair?

One thing about tax cuts that might be surprising to all of you against them...

Historically when taxes are cut, tax revenue goes up.
When taxes are raised, tax revenue has gone down.

So I earn about 75k a year. I would benefit more under an Obama administration than a McCain one. Are you saying I'm not a hard-worker?

Looking at some of the "simple" numbers, you would benefit. However, if you had investments and had to pay higher capital gains taxes, you'd probably pay more taxes under Obama. Also, if Obama were to choke growth by nailing corporations with higher taxes, there's a higher likelyhood of less jobs being created - or, even more layoffs to occur.

If you don't have any income coming in due to the loss of a job, then there's zero benefit under Obama's tax plan.

You do realize just how much you would have to be making in capital gains in order to benefit more from McCain than Obama's plan, right? A shitload. Way more than someone who makes $75k is likely to be making in the stock market. That's not really a realistic scenario.