Why so cynical about organic food?

[slackerinabox]

I've noticed this around here and just wonder why...

Every chef agrees- fresher, more local, and minimally fucked with food just tastes better (regardless of health benefits, man is grass fed organic rib eye awesome!) - so why the endless debate and cynicism?

Is it a case of "i can't afford it so it sucks!," or is it something else I don't get? I get it - marketing greatly exaggerates the benefits of organic food, but isn't that just the nature of marketing (exaggerating to sell your product in mass quantities).

Organic dairy - tastes better
Organic meat - oh, tastes so much better
Organic fruits/vegetable - taste is debatable to me, but why is it hard to understand that, while you don't care about pesticides, other people may?

I get it, all this "gluten free" stuff for people who don't suffer from gluten allergies is silly (gluten free water?), but why get so worked up about marketing if it has no effect on your life?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

The issue isn't the concept of 'organic foods' it's the gaming of the rules, skating the razor edge of legality and, depending on poor monitoring from the authorities, by the large corporations who supply our food.

 

[Captante]

Nothing better to do?

Seriously though, some organic food is in fact better but IME most of it is just smaller & more expensive. Also food labeling laws are so lax now almost anything can say organic on the label making it nearly worthless.

 

[MongGrel]

We do not go out of the way to look for organic labeled food.

The wife has a fruit/vegetable market she gets good looking produce at least a third/half price most of the time near work, but I doubt it is technically considered organic.

Bought 4Grain Vegetarian Brown eggs a few years ago at the store and about all we buy now. They are cheaper than Publix brand comparable sized eggs to begin with, and I like them, but probably not considered organic either.

It did usually seem a reason to justify overpricing things in many cases to me, though growing up among farmers there are some things you run into you just don't commonly see in a market.

When a child in the 60's I remember drinking unpasteurized milk at my aunt and uncles farm pretty much just straight from the cow to the fridge, that was rich milk without any processing.

 

[brianmanahan]

i'm not going to spend more money on organic food

when regular food tastes fine and is a lot cheaper

 

[Ken g6]

I generally like organic food more than inorganic food.

(Salt is the exception that proves the rule.)

 

[Markbnj]

I generally like organic food more than inorganic food.

(Salt is the exception that proves the rule.)

This.

 

[TheGardener]

While I'd like to eat organic, I cannot afford it. If organic is on sale at a near competitive price, I'll likely buy it. Usually it cost 100% or 200% more than conventional food.

So I might buy one organic product a week, but my diet is almost all conventional products, except for what I grow. I have an organic garden in a community garden, and I am thrilled to bring the bounty of my hobby home with me. I find that organic food usually tastes better, though the success rate of reaching the table is lower. I'm know that organic farmers are faced with the same dilemma.

To the point of farmers, usually agra-companies, gaming the system of standards, I understand. Even in non-organic situations with natural foods, they do this. There is no standard for natural foods. Agra-companies want call GMO ingredients natural.

 

[lxskllr]

The issue isn't the concept of 'organic foods' it's the gaming of the rules, skating the razor edge of legality and, depending on poor monitoring from the authorities, by the large corporations who supply our food.

This. There's a lot of greenwashing, and general shenanigans surrounding food.

 

[SlitheryDee]

I have had some organic stuff that tasted way better than "normal" food, so if that can consistently be the case then I'm all for it. Had some organic milk that was amazing. Had some organic apples that were amazing. If I can basically equate "organic" with "better tasting" then I'm loving me some organic food. I don't care one at all about all the various other reasons someone might buy it.

I've eaten pesticide ridden, GMO foods all my life and I don't think it's hurt me a bit. Flavor is king for me though. I would pay extra for foods labeled "organic" if it got me that. Problem is that while I've had great organic stuff, I've also had plenty of "meh" or even bad organic stuff. If I can't count on flavor then I'm not sold.

 

[Brainonska511]

I've noticed this around here and just wonder why...

Every chef agrees- fresher, more local, and minimally fucked with food just tastes better (regardless of health benefits, man is grass fed organic rib eye awesome!) - so why the endless debate and cynicism?

It's a marketing gimmic. Organic does not mean "minimally fucked with" or anything like that. But "organic" does mean that those people can charge more based on the wide-spread, utterly mistaken perception of what "organic" means.

Is it a case of "i can't afford it so it sucks!," or is it something else I don't get? I get it - marketing greatly exaggerates the benefits of organic food, but isn't that just the nature of marketing (exaggerating to sell your product in mass quantities).

It's more expensive, not nutritionally better, no less pesticides are used, it's less sustainable than more conventional and modern methods, the pesticides used aren't necessarily better for the environment nor are they inherently safer (natural != safe, synthetic != dangerous), and manure isn't exactly an environmentally friendly fertilizer. And they reject modern methods that could actually lower pesticide inputs and increase yields per acre (such as no GMOs are allowed in organic-labeled products)

Organic dairy - tastes better
Organic meat - oh, tastes so much better
Organic fruits/vegetable - taste is debatable to me, but why is it hard to understand that, while you don't care about pesticides, other people may?

See my last point for the bolded. And of course it's going to taste better - I bet if you pay more for something, that's going to play a role into how good you think it tastes.

I get it, all this "gluten free" stuff for people who don't suffer from gluten allergies is silly (gluten free water?), but why get so worked up about marketing if it has no effect on your life?

The reason to get worked up about it is because then people push for scientifically illiterate policies that actually run counter to what they want and also inhibits innovation (eg: see GMO foods). You also have the issue of large groups taking advantage of naive people, and frankly, that's just wrong.

 

[zerocool84]

Should we bring up blind taste tests done that show organic doesn't taste any better or that organic doesn't mean pesticide free or doesn't actually mean organic at all?

Should you buy locally grown so it's fresher and you're supporting your local economy? Yes, but that doesn't mean it's organic or organic is automatically better.

 

[darkswordsman17]

You hit the nail on the head but missed the point. The reason has fucking nothing at all to do with "organic" or not (studies have consistently shown organic doesn't mean jack shit insofar as flavor and nutrient values), its getting fresher food that makes the difference. The reason non-organic stuff tends to not be as good is that its large scale commercial methods that take time to get to you and are often picked at non-optimal times, meaning plenty of it isn't as good as it could be.

And sorry but if you care about pesticides you wouldn't be eating fucking anything. Besides the fact that organic doesn't mean pesticide free at all (in fact organic pesticides often are worse and often used in worse manners), but also 99% of the pesticides you'll be exposed to are made by the plants themselves. Hell half the crops we eat now wouldn't even be edible if we hadn't adjusted them over time as they're actually part of families that are poisonous (potatoes are nightshade for instance) but we bred that out of them.

And the reason why organic is such a bad thing is that if we tried to make everything "organic" we'd have to expend a lot more resources, and we'd get less return with crops that are less hardy about handling inclement situations (droughts, flooding, etc), meaning less quality food.

Now, processing and adding fillers and sugars and other things absolutely makes food worse, but that's a very different topic, but for some reason people can't seem to understand that you don't need to go full nutter organic crazy to improve your food. But they keep buying into bullshit (OMG chemicals are bad!!!!).

So yes, if you want the freshest stuff, find locally grown/harvested/raised foodstock. Just understand there will be shortcomings (you're probably not going to be getting tons of fresh bananas, pineapples, and a lot of other stuff locally if you live in most of the US), and that you're still better off having access to fruits, veggies, etc year round, even if they aren't the best.

Lastly if you buy organic as some misguided anti-corporate thing then, well hate to break it to you but the companies dominating typical farming are dominating or in the process of dominating organic farming as well. In fact its just giving them more money, as they can spend a bit more to grow "organic" while selling it for substantially more money.

And, there's some things that could make commercial farming absolutely better. There's been several trying out lab farming, by growing vegetables under special lights in clean rooms on racks, and they're finding things grow faster and better, and that could enable not using added pesticides (might even be able to start removing the ones the plant makes) at all, and regulating water and nutrients substantially. Plus you could control temp which means plants that need optimal climatic conditions could be grown year round. And there's a belief that large scale closed hydroponics setups could be the future, where we grow plants in giant water tanks (keeping the water controlled to prevent contamination and nutrient rich), and alongside that we raise populations of fish that fertilize the tanks and then we can harvest them as well. And those could be done in the middle of cities, meaning fresh food to large population centers, and without wasting lots of water.

While I'd like to eat organic, I cannot afford it. If organic is on sale at a near competitive price, I'll likely buy it. Usually it cost 100% or 200% more than conventional food.

So I might buy one organic product a week, but my diet is almost all conventional products, except for what I grow. I have an organic garden in a community garden, and I am thrilled to bring the bounty of my hobby home with me. I find that organic food usually tastes better, though the success rate of reaching the table is lower. I'm know that organic farmers are faced with the same dilemma.

To the point of farmers, usually agra-companies, gaming the system of standards, I understand. Even in non-organic situations with natural foods, they do this. There is no standard for natural foods. Agra-companies want call GMO ingredients natural.

Its not just farming corporations, organic is easy to game and doesn't mean what people think. A lot of smaller scale organic growers actually are worse about pesticides (use ones that are worse and use them in larger quantities).

Natural is a completely meaningless useless fucking term.

 

[darkswordsman17]

It's a marketing gimmic. Organic does not mean "minimally fucked with" or anything like that. But "organic" does mean that those people can charge more based on the wide-spread, utterly mistaken perception of what "organic" means.

It's more expensive, not nutritionally better, no less pesticides are used, it's less sustainable than more conventional and modern methods, the pesticides used aren't necessarily better for the environment nor are they inherently safer (natural != safe, synthetic != dangerous), and manure isn't exactly an environmentally friendly fertilizer. And they reject modern methods that could actually lower pesticide inputs and increase yields per acre (such as no GMOs are allowed in organic-labeled products)

See my last point for the bolded. And of course it's going to taste better - I bet if you pay more for something, that's going to play a role into how good you think it tastes.

The reason to get worked up about it is because then people push for scientifically illiterate policies that actually run counter to what they want and also inhibits innovation (eg: see GMO foods). You also have the issue of large groups taking advantage of naive people, and frankly, that's just wrong.

Should we bring up blind taste tests done that show organic doesn't taste any better or that organic doesn't mean pesticide free or doesn't actually mean organic at all?

Should you buy locally grown so it's fresher and you're supporting your local economy? Yes, but that doesn't mean it's organic or organic is automatically better.

Both of these, and more succinctly put than I did.

 

[Spacehead]

Are there guidelines or rules to label something "organic" that everyone follows? I don't think there are but i don't follow this closely. Until there are set guidelines "organic" means nothing.

 

[lxskllr]

Are there guidelines or rules to label something "organic" that everyone follows? I don't think there are but i don't follow this closely. Until there are set guidelines "organic" means nothing.

There's numerous guidelines, which is part of the problem.

 

[Brainonska511]

Are there guidelines or rules to label something "organic" that everyone follows? I don't think there are but i don't follow this closely. Until there are set guidelines "organic" means nothing.

The USDA has published guidelines for labeling something "organic".

 

[MongGrel]

I'd never really looked into it that much myself, but still wonder how much it is actually regulated.

If it is like some OSHA things, people can pass a certification then just do others things later.

Not like I haven't seen things like that occur in the past.

Is kind of like the whole Volkswagon EPA thing.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic

Rules tend to get bent here and there, in the name of profits.

 

[Charmonium]

There are 3 levels of organic certification. From wikipedia.

In the United States, federal legislation defines three levels of organic foods.[13] Products made entirely with certified organic ingredients and methods can be labeled "100% organic," while only products with at least 95% organic ingredients may be labeled "organic." Both of these categories may also display the "USDA Organic" seal. A third category, containing a minimum of 70% organic ingredients, can be labeled "made with organic ingredients," but may not display the USDA Organic seal. In addition, products may also display the logo of the certification body that approved them.[14]

This is just for the US. Here is the rest of the entry.

Products made with less than 70% organic ingredients can not be advertised as "organic," but can list individual ingredients that are organic as such in the product's ingredient statement. Also, USDA ingredients from plants cannot be genetically modified.[14]
In the U.S., the Organic Foods Production Act of 1990 "requires the Secretary of Agriculture to establish a National List of Allowed and Prohibited Substances which identifies synthetic substances that may be used, and the nonsynthetic substances that cannot be used, in organic production and handling operations."[15]
Also in the U.S., the Secretary of Agriculture promulgated regulations establishing the National Organic Program (NOP). The final rule was published in the Federal Register in 2000. It restricts the use of the term "organic" to certified organic producers (excepting growers selling under $5,000 a year, who must still comply and submit to a records audit if requested, but do not have to formally apply). Certification is handled by state, non-profit and private agencies that have been approved by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA).
One of the first organizations to carry out organic certification in North America was the California Certified Organic Farmers, founded in 1973. Some retailers have their stores certified as organic handlers and processors to ensure organic compliance is maintained throughout the supply chain until delivered to consumers, such as Vitamin Cottage Natural Grocers, a 60-year-old chain based in Colorado.

 

[TallBill]

Local is typically better than non-local. Organic is in no way shape or form better than non-organic. Same for "GMO free".

 

[lxskllr]

There are 3 levels of organic certification. From wikipedia.


This is just for the US. Here is the rest of the entry.

There's more local certifying groups. Without researching the specific certifications, it's hard to tell what a statement means.

 

[slackerinabox]

This. There's a lot of greenwashing, and general shenanigans surrounding food.

That makes sense, I hear you. I walked into a whole foods and saw a pear.. ONE PEAR.. For $5, with a long list of health benefits and hyperbole.. Does the term organic not have FDA requirements?

 

[slackerinabox]

Should we bring up blind taste tests done that show organic doesn't taste any better or that organic doesn't mean pesticide free or doesn't actually mean organic at all?

Should you buy locally grown so it's fresher and you're supporting your local economy? Yes, but that doesn't mean it's organic or organic is automatically better.

I don't get that - like the 'cheap wine is the same as expensive wine' taste tests, I always sense an agenda behind a lot of these tests and wonder who exactly is in this blind sampling. I bet the study with the ironic conclusion will get more hits, more PR, and more impressions. Yes, it has more to do than the "organic" label, but put your average slab of organic meat next to your average grocery store cut, and there's a visual, textural, and taste difference. Of course you can get non-organic steak from the butchers that puts them both to shame, but it won't be cheap. What I'm saying is, if you walk into a wegmans and you have two choices, the organic will taste better. Organic yogurt just tends to be equally different to me, and there's less other crap in it too. It's a shortcut, yes. But I pay a buck or 2 extra for organic milk for my kids without hesitation

 

[Newbian]

That makes sense, I hear you. I walked into a whole foods and saw a pear.. ONE PEAR.. For $5, with a long list of health benefits and hyperbole.. Does the term organic not have FDA requirements?

There is no good set of rules and people can call it and charge a lot more then normal when in many cases they are the same.

 

[Fritzo]

Fresher and organic have nothing to do with each other. The problem is most chain stores label things "organic", when they are in fact not. There are no legal definitions of organic, so everyone just makes their own rules.