(why) should I wait for Ivy Bridge?

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B

BlahBlahYouToo

Lifer
Jul 10, 2007
12,050
3
0
currently rocking a Q9550 w/8GB RAM, GTX 460, SSD... plenty of power and speed and quite frankly, overkill for everyday computing tasks.

however, i recently started building out a server farm with vmware and ran into a brick wall after 4 servers + host processes.
Win7 actually popped up a dialogue box telling me I don't have enough memory to do the things I want to do and shut down the offending apps without warning.

i actually need 7-8 servers and freeNAS running concurrently to do the things I want to do.

i know what my physical hardware needs are. first and foremost is memory.
my mb could handle 16gb max, but it's DDR2 which is much more $ than DDR3 at the moment.

second is CPU (all 4 cores pegged at 100% whenever a couple of the servers are requested to do work).
i already have the best s775 CPU, if i don't count the ridiculously priced Q9650, so the upgrade path is null.

lastly and least important is hard disk. i'm asking 3 disks to do too much, but fortunately, this is the easiest issue to resolve. just put in more/faster disks.

so i figure this platform is already maxxed out. time to rebuild so why not go with the latest and greatest?
currently, i can get a great deal for a i7 2600k and Z68 combo for $300.
i could use the faster architecture of SB and VMware can hopefully take advantage of the extra logical cores.
add in another 16gb of ddr3 ram (I actually purchased up today for a whopping $70) and i'm all set right?

then i did more researching (been out of the loop, last build was a i7 930, and an i5 750), and found that ivy bridge and panther point are due out in 2Q 2012. so it got me thinking... i could actually run my farm by not powering up the passive cluster nodes. brings me down to 4 servers and the NAS box which i can sorta get by with on current hardware.
i might be able to hold off for another few months, but then i could play the waiting game indefinitely... when news of the IB successor gets released, and the successor to that, and so on.

but what does IB and PP really bring to the table?
i don't need the faster integrated GPU or its encoding abilities.
i don't need the ssd caching.
native USB3? i can deal with the oem solutions. heck i don't even have any usb 3.0 devices atm.
pci-e 3.0? don't game much anymore.

22nm is intriguing if it brings about huge performance increase due to lower power/heat. especially important is lower power consumption since this puppy is going to be taxed with all the vm's running.

so for my needs (basically more power and RAM), should i be holding out for IB?
or will SB be sufficient?
the sale ends 9/18 so i have a few days to make up my mind.
:)
 
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Soulkeeper

Soulkeeper

Diamond Member
Nov 23, 2001
6,712
142
106
I have similar hardware to you and have been waiting for bulldozer for over a year now ...
The main benefit for us upgrading from Q9550/Q9450 will be idle power usage imo
as the clock mults are already pretty low and intel only allows 6x min for speedstep
not to mention other advancements for power saving and potentially performance
my system idles at 150Watt ...

The only problem is waiting takes forever, but I refuse to pull the trigger unless i'm getting exactly what I want.
:)

EDIT: 6x min not 8x, you all failed to catch that !
 
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evident

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
11,904
508
126
if you can afford to wait its probably worth doing it, especially in the hardware world
 
B

BlahBlahYouToo

Lifer
Jul 10, 2007
12,050
3
0
jsedlak said:
Spend 5k on a Dell T410 or something with dual Xeons and 32gb of ram...
Click to expand...

i could probably get a poweredge 1950 from work if i wanted a full fledged server (if I had space for a 1U and could handle the noise).

and I'm trying to spend around $500, not 10x that.
 
VirtualLarry

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,339
10,044
126
I would wait, and get the highest-end BullDozer CPU, and 32GB (4x8GB) of DDR3. Pricey, sure, but your only other alternative is to get a server DP board.
 
blckgrffn

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
9,126
3,066
136
www.teamjuchems.com
More ram, man!

I would go x58/i7-9x0 - 24GB of ram for cheap, you'll want the extra memory bandwidth the platform affords. Sandy Bridge-E makes more sense than Ivy Bridge for you, even.

And if performance is important - you should build a (dedicated) ESXi box and get away from VMware workstation or whatever it is that you are currently using for the VMs. Just keep using your current PC like you do now.

Running VMs the Nehalem is going to be way better than your current CPU.
 
B

BlahBlahYouToo

Lifer
Jul 10, 2007
12,050
3
0
blckgrffn said:
More ram, man!

I would go x58/i7-9x0 - 24GB of ram for cheap, you'll want the extra memory bandwidth the platform affords. Sandy Bridge-E makes more sense than Ivy Bridge for you, even.

And if performance is important - you should build a (dedicated) ESXi box and get away from VMware workstation or whatever it is that you are currently using for the VMs. Just keep using your current PC like you do now.

Running VMs the Nehalem is going to be way better than your current CPU.
Click to expand...

hmmm, i just bought 2 of these, sold as a dual channel kit.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231314

i can buy another one and add it into the mix to run triple channel right?
there's nothing on them that designates it as dual or tri channel, just that they're matched timings and voltages correct?

yeah, running workstation. thought about building a dedicated esx-i box but for what i'm doing (building to practice for MS certs, sql cluster, exchange, sp farm, etc.), it's just not worth it.
 
blckgrffn

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
9,126
3,066
136
www.teamjuchems.com
I think so. I think they do need to be matched otherwise there will be degraded performance, but all the ram should be available.

I built a whitebox ESXi box on the pretty darn cheap, it's pretty easy given you are buying new guts anway - just need a case, power supply and hard drive. Check a white box ESXi site to make the onboard nic on the motherboard you want to buy is supported (sata support is a given these days...) and voila. Doesn't even need a CD-ROM drive. Use VM-Converter to send your VMs over and you'll much better bang for your buck (performance and density) by using a Type-1 Hypervisor.

It will be nice when Hyper-V is baked in with Windows 8 and you'll get this kind of performance without the hassle.

You could install 2008 R2 as your Desktop OS and run with Hyper-V which would get you 90% of the way there, pretty much all you lose is Media Center. Microsoft Security Essentials even works and if you have a .edu account you can get it free through dreamspark.
 
B

BlahBlahYouToo

Lifer
Jul 10, 2007
12,050
3
0
does 2008 R2 allow for more than 1VM? i recall 2008 standard only allows 1.

is the free edu version standard or enterprise?

bah, it's standard edition... need ENT or DC for clustering.
 
J

jsedlak

Senior member
Mar 2, 2008
278
0
71
BlahBlahYouToo said:
i could probably get a poweredge 1950 from work if i wanted a full fledged server (if I had space for a 1U and could handle the noise).

and I'm trying to spend around $500, not 10x that.
Click to expand...

Sandy Bridge will get you 4C and 16gb of RAM. Ivy Bridge will get you 6-8C (IIRC) and 32gb of RAM, but at a hefty price. While you are certainly hitting a memory cap, you will also run out of CPU headroom if you keep adding VMs. By moving to a dual CPU system, you can alleviate both problems at once and give yourself substantial headroom and a decent upgrade path.
 
Arkaign

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
X6's are cheap and pretty effective at what you're describing, probably the cheapest route to lots of cores. It sounds like the combo 2600k special you're describing basically gives you a free mobo though, so that might be a better buy. It'd be interesting to compare the 6C/6T to the 4C/8T in heavy virtualized server use. Certainly the 2600k is better at almost any common desktop task, but you might actually be the exception with the kind of multitasking you describe.
 
gmaster456

gmaster456

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2011
1,877
0
71
Arkaign said:
X6's are cheap and pretty effective at what you're describing, probably the cheapest route to lots of cores. It sounds like the combo 2600k special you're describing basically gives you a free mobo though, so that might be a better buy. It'd be interesting to compare the 6C/6T to the 4C/8T in heavy virtualized server use. Certainly the 2600k is better at almost any common desktop task, but you might actually be the exception with the kind of multitasking you describe.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm interested in seeing that as well.
 
T

tynopik

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2004
5,245
500
126
BlahBlahYouToo said:
what does xeon offer over desktop cpu's?
i thought they were pretty much the same things with more cache and reliability.
Click to expand...

more cores on a chip (6 or 8), more chips on a board (2+), boards with more ram support

if you're maxing out 4 cores with less than half your anticipated load, logic suggests you need at least 8 and maybe 12 cores

for instance, you could get:
Code: 
EVGA Classified SR-2
$580
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188070

Xeon W3670
2x $600 = $1200
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117252

2gb DDR3
12x $11 = $121
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820313101


12 reasonably fast cores and 24GB RAM for $1900

I know someone will ding me for the ram choice and check the cpu compatibility, but that's the general idea
 
Last edited:
Arkaign

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
tynopik said:
more cores on a chip (6 or 8), more chips on a board (2+), boards with more ram support

if you're maxing out 4 cores with less than half your anticipated load, logic suggests you need at least 8 and maybe 12 cores

for instance, you could get:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813188070
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117252 x2

and have 12 reasonably fast cores
Click to expand...

That's fantastic but it's closing on $2k before PSU and Ram. I don't think the OP wants to spend that kind of cash.

It looks like the cheapest way to get tons of cores is this :

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813151213 $429

with two of these :

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819105266 2x$249

Which gives 16 2ghz Opteron cores. That's still a hefty investment closing in on $1k though.
 
M

mmaestro

Member
Jun 13, 2011
117
0
0
I'm planning on building a VM farm in the near future, and I'm waiting to see what Valencia brings to the table before I spring for the system. I'm far from convinced Bulldozer will be worthwhile for consumers, but I'm hopeful for it as a server platform.
 
Ken g6

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,250
3,845
75
Get your deal. It sounds good!

I thought maybe you could get a s775 mobo that supports 16GB DDR3, and wait for Haswell in 2013. But it seems no s775 mobos support 16GB! :thumbsdown:
 
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