Why September 11 Occured

[Narmer]

THis information is not in support of Al Qaeda. It is to let Americans know why muslims celebrated on that day 5 years ago. I did not support the terrorist attacks but I understand why it happens. There is no rift in Islam or any other nonsense. Islam is used, like any other religion, as a banner for unity in what Al Qaeda calls its Jihad against America. Therefore, Americans should not see this as a clash of civilizations or religions, but as a political fight. The main point being that you reap what you sow.

Let us remember that America supports most of the most despicable regimes in the Middle East. These regimes, with the silent support of the United States, have ruled with an iron-fist for much of the past century and don't give two squirts of piss about their citizens. The United States, caring more for its energy and security needs than the citizens, didn't really care about these abuses. In addition to the despotic regimes, America also supported Israel, which has trampled on the Palestinians for so long. The Al Qaeda recognized Israel and these regimes as the near enemy and America as the far enemy. They decided to strike at the heart of America to put fear, kill, and bring instability to Americans just as America brings it to the muslim world through its support for Israel and despotic regimes. Many muslims get killed and its not even a footnote, but let 1 Jew or American get killed and it's suddenly world news. Is Jewish/AMerican blood worth more than Arab/Muslim blood? The hypocrisy continues with America rallying the world around democratic principals while paying lip service to it in the M.E. After the Twin Towers fell, America pressed the regimes in the M.E. to become more democratic, but had second thoughts when Hamas won elections and Iraqis and Iranians elected conservatives as their leaders.

The death and destruction that America has brought to Iraq is just the latest example of why Muslims are so angry. 100 Iraqis are killed everyday, over 11,000 in the past three months alone. The terror continues.

 

[yllus]

I wouldn't say one Jew or American getting killed is world news, because I'm pretty sure I don't read about Jews getting killed on a daily basis. Americans maybe, but that's easily explained: The vast majority of world news outlets are American, and obviously they're going to report on their own above all else. Here in Canada, it's front page news when a Canadian is killed in the latest plane crash or whatnot as well. All nations are the same in this regard.

America faces a lose/lose situation in the Middle East. The majority of the time, it doesn't literally support the regimes as much as it does continue to engage in trade with them. On the other hand, if they did the opposite of support - adovcating and taking action in the overthrowing of those regimes - they'd also be decried, as we've seen illustrated for us.

The major reason Muslims celebrated 5 years ago is because those despot-laden regimes have worked into their illiterate populace's heads that over there, far away, are the enemy. Not right here in front of you stealing from your state treasury and living large off of it, of course. No no, look way over there. Not here. If the U.S. was to pull out from everywhere in the Middle East tomorrow, what would change? Would Jordan suddenly become democratic? Egypt? Syria? Iran? Iraq? Lebanon? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? Not really...

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: Narmer
It is to let Americans know why muslims celebrated on that day 5 years ago.

Let us remember that America supports most of the most despicable regimes in the Middle East.

I remember some Muslims in Britian celebrating. And some news stories showing a couple dozen palestinians from a few years earlier, whooping and hollering. But I mainly remember alot of sorrow from Iran etc. Do you have some links about Muslims celebrating?

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: yllus
[ ... ] those despot-laden regimes have worked into their illiterate populace's heads that over there, far away, are the enemy. Not right here in front of you stealing from your state treasury and living large off of it, of course. No no, look way over there. Not here. ...

Off topic, but did anyone else notice how easily this could be applied to our own government? Not word for word necessarily, but the same general concepts apply. Indeed, governments in general regularly find external boogeymen to divert their populace's attention from internal issues.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Looking around Google etc for some facts about Muslims celebrating and not coming up with much. But this surprised me

Following the attacks, 80,000 Arab and Muslim immigrants were fingerprinted and registered under the Alien Registration Act of 1940. 8,000 Arab and Muslim men were interviewed, and 5,000 foreign nationals were detained under Joint Congressional Resolution 107-40 authorizing the use of military force "to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States."

Wonder how many of those 80,000 ended up in the concentration camps.

I was also reminded of this

There were some incidents of harassment and hate crimes against Middle Easterners and other, "Middle Eastern-looking" people, particularly Sikhs, due to the fact that Sikh males usually wear turbans, which are stereotypically associated with Muslims in the United States. At least nine people were murdered within the United States as part of retaliation. Balbir Singh Sodhi, one of the first victims of this phenomenon, was fatally shot on September 15. He, like others, was a Sikh who was mistaken for a Muslim.

In Europe a similar backlash against Muslims became apparent. Because of this, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) undertook the largest monitoring project ever into Islamophobia. The report, authored by Jorgen Nielsen and Chris Allen[2][53] from the University or Birmingham, England was published in 2002 and noted that a greater receptivity to anti-Muslim and anti-Islamic feeling was widespread.

September 11, 2001 attacks

So sad
My heart goes out to all the victims

 

[randym431]

Well here the right wing will go... saying those liberals only want to "understand" our enemies. Not take the "make my day" cowboy approach.
But till we do try to understand why they hate us so, terrorist will always and forever try attacking America.
And why do they? Well I remember the old Shaw of Iran fellow. You know, the ruler that looked more like someone you'd find in a high class sports bar hitting on chicks than a ruler of some country. But as I understand, the CIA put or helped put this guy in power. And the people of Iran knew it and there you have the formula for the hate.

People over there hold a grudge FOREVER. Even if things are controlled in the near future and the war does finally end, someday 25 or 35 or 50 years from now someone over there will remember back in 2006 and muster up enough new founded hate to attack us again 50 years from now. And by then they may have nukes. And we will ask "why did they do this, what did we do to them, and why did we not see it coming".

So what to do??? Well I hate to say it but it boils down to either us or them.
I remember that older guy from the reality tv show survivor. Roody I think was his name. He was on Larry King after that survivor series ended. Larry ask him what he would do about 9/11 and Bin Laden. Roody said he'd nuke them all. That sounded like a statement from a nut case but actually that is probably the only final solution to end terrorism against us once and for all. Otherwise, no war or democracy will ever put an end to terrorism against the USA.

 

[yllus]

I don't know whether to be more amused by the fact that you wrote the "Shaw of Iran" or by your ridiculous stereotyping of "people over there hold[ing] a grudge FOREVER." The people of Iran don't give a crap about the Shah. Hell, they'd probably misspell it like you did.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Orignal Earl

Originally posted by: Narmer
It is to let Americans know why muslims celebrated on that day 5 years ago.

Let us remember that America supports most of the most despicable regimes in the Middle East.

I remember some Muslims in Britian celebrating. And some news stories showing a couple dozen palestinians from a few years earlier, whooping and hollering. But I mainly remember alot of sorrow from Iran etc. Do you have some links about Muslims celebrating?

I can't get you links but I do remember many cabbies getting out of their taxis and clapping in Manhattan that day. I also remember plenty of African-Americans celebrating.

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: randym431
Well here the right wing will go... saying those liberals only want to "understand" our enemies. Not take the "make my day" cowboy approach.
But till we do try to understand why they hate us so, terrorist will always and forever try attacking America.

What makes you think the right wants peace/wants terrorism to end? War is big business (big profits), plus keeping the sheep scared out of their wits is a very powerful tool in keeping the crooks in office.

If anything, they're annoyed that there haven't been more attacks.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: Narmer
100 Iraqis are killed everyday, over 11,000 in the past three months alone. The terror continues.

By US soldiers or by other Middle Easterners. What's the ratio?

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: Narmer
100 Iraqis are killed everyday, over 11,000 in the past three months alone. The terror continues.

By US soldiers or by other Middle Easterners. What's the ratio?

The majority of the deaths are caused by other Arabs. US soldiers kill a lot less arabs than they used to, I believe. Nevertheless, the current anarchy was brought forth by America.

 

[dwell]

Look at the body count:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/

And the causes of death:

gunfire, executed
roadside bomb
bomb
found beheaded
suicide car bomb
suicide bomber

I'll admit the US light the torch, but at this point you have to blame the savages for civilian deaths way over the US.

 

[KlokWyze]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: randym431
Well here the right wing will go... saying those liberals only want to "understand" our enemies. Not take the "make my day" cowboy approach.
But till we do try to understand why they hate us so, terrorist will always and forever try attacking America.

What makes you think the right wants peace/wants terrorism to end? War is big business (big profits), plus keeping the sheep scared out of their wits is a very powerful tool in keeping the crooks in office.

If anything, they're annoyed that there haven't been more attacks.

:thumbsup:

Sept. 11 occurred for alot of reasons, but one of them WASN'T because 19 non-muslim degenerates with boxcutters "hated our freedom". It is rediculously false, as it sounds.

I am not going to debate what brought down the towers or exactly whom, because if you think the above statement IS true, then you are lost.

What I can discuss is who has benefitted and who has constantly lied on the record NUMEROUS times. Also I must mention who has lost, and its not just the Arabs of the 3rd world or kids fighting the Iraq "war".

Who has benefitted for the time being? Shareholders of arms dealers (Lockheed Martin, Halliburton + its subsidiary KBR, Titan, BAE systems, Boeing, General Dynamics, Northrup and Grumman, etc.). Also, other industries related to, supporting manufacturer's with materials,outsourcing labor, consulting,etc.

Cheney's obvious ties to Halliburton being the former CEO and still possessing 400,000+ shares AND other interests in the company certainly DOES NOT LOOK GOOD.
Text
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The control of the ME's resources is another well-known factor, people for the most part the American masses acknowledge that US foreign policy conveniently intervenes with countrys with MASSIVE oil reserves.... yet people think we are over there to "spread democracy". Whoever buys this is retarded. The fact that our government relies on FOR-PROFIT corporations to liberate 3rd world civlians is in itself depraved and immoral.

On Sept. 10th, 2001: Cheney publicly announced that the DOD (Department of Defense) couldn't account for 2.6 trillion USD. That is 2.6 TRILLION UP IN SMOKE. hmmmm

No wait.... we went to Iraq because Saddam has ties with Al-Queda.... AND he had WMDs!!! scary.... the Bush regime as publicly stating before the invasion of Iraq that Saddam had WMDs and that they have intelligence linking Saddam to the attacks of 9/11. Bush has then openly admitted AFTER WE INVADED that neither of these statements are true... hmmmmmm.

Even recently the Bush regime is trying to pass legislation that makes them immune to prosecution for past WAR-CRIMES.
Text
This sure looks like people that are innocent. People that are "fighting for freedom" against 3rd world countries with MASSIVE deposits of oil and weak armies to let loose the military-industrial complex on.

As the national deficit grows, so does our debt. The US government is in the pocket of the world bankers and the now massive corporations that fund their campaigns. Look back to the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and look @ our deficit BALOON since then. The same people that backed this are the same people that fund war campaigns throughout the world. Look up Rothschilds, Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Warburg.

Some excellent documentaries to watch are:
"Why We Fight"
"Freedom to Fascism" by Aaron Russo
"Loose Change" by Dylan Avery

There are countless other questions that the US government simply won't address:

Why is America so pro-Israel?
Where is the law that states Americans have to pay the income tax?
Why wasn't there an immediate investigation into the LARGEST TERROR ATTACK IN US HISTORY(9/11)?
Why does the MSM demonize Iran for making nuclear weapons when conclusive evidence shows they cannot obtain them within DECADES?
Why have no suspects ever been charged with the attacks of 9/11?
Why does the deficit grow larger year after year without any REAL plan to deal with it?

If anyone wishes to dispute my claims, please do so reasonably. Calling me a "conspiracy-nut" is NOT a counter argument. I am not stupid and have reached my understanding through study and research.

***BTW I know this is my 1st post, but this is not the sole purpose for me joining these forums. The buy/sell/trade forum on here OWNS. I plan on contributing alot of posts and business on these forums.

 

[bobdelt]

Why is America so pro-Israel?
Because many believe the fate of Israel is the fate of the western world. And also, because the leaders america elects, are mostly pro isreal. Its silly how that works.

Where is the law that states Americans have to pay the income tax?
Congress passes bills that tax you.

Why wasn't there an immediate investigation into the LARGEST TERROR ATTACK IN US HISTORY(9/11)?

There was.

Why does the MSM demonize Iran for making nuclear weapons when conclusive evidence shows they cannot obtain them within DECADES? Because it takes less than decades, Ive seen reports that say within five years. Would you rather deal with this problem now, or when they have a bomb?


Why have no suspects ever been charged with the attacks of 9/11?
Because you can charge a dead person.

Why does the deficit grow larger year after year without any REAL plan to deal with it?

Tax Revenue increased this year, unfortunantly so did spending. Why? Because in all reality it isnt that big of a deal. The effects of running in a deficit arent that great. This isnt something we need to try to fix overnight, and we can't.

 

[Chiller2]

Therefore, Americans should not see this as a clash of civilizations or religions, but as a political fight. The main point being that you reap what you sow.

Your Religion IS your politics and civilization. It is so intermingaled that it cannot be seperated that is a large part of the problem.

The death and destruction that America has brought to Iraq is just the latest example of why Muslims are so angry. 100 Iraqis are killed everyday, over 11,000 in the past three months alone. The terror continues.

M
ost of them were caused by other Muslims so are they angy they didn't kill more or that it is not working?

 

[glenn1]

THis information is not in support of Al Qaeda. It is to let Americans know why muslims celebrated on that day 5 years ago. I did not support the terrorist attacks but I understand why it happens. There is no rift in Islam or any other nonsense. Islam is used, like any other religion, as a banner for unity in what Al Qaeda calls its Jihad against America. Therefore, Americans should not see this as a clash of civilizations or religions, but as a political fight. The main point being that you reap what you sow.

Let us remember that America supports most of the most despicable regimes in the Middle East. These regimes, with the silent support of the United States, have ruled with an iron-fist for much of the past century and don't give two squirts of piss about their citizens. The United States, caring more for its energy and security needs than the citizens, didn't really care about these abuses. In addition to the despotic regimes, America also supported Israel, which has trampled on the Palestinians for so long. The Al Qaeda recognized Israel and these regimes as the near enemy and America as the far enemy. They decided to strike at the heart of America to put fear, kill, and bring instability to Americans just as America brings it to the muslim world through its support for Israel and despotic regimes. Many muslims get killed and its not even a footnote, but let 1 Jew or American get killed and it's suddenly world news. Is Jewish/AMerican blood worth more than Arab/Muslim blood? The hypocrisy continues with America rallying the world around democratic principals while paying lip service to it in the M.E. After the Twin Towers fell, America pressed the regimes in the M.E. to become more democratic, but had second thoughts when Hamas won elections and Iraqis and Iranians elected conservatives as their leaders.

The death and destruction that America has brought to Iraq is just the latest example of why Muslims are so angry. 100 Iraqis are killed everyday, over 11,000 in the past three months alone. The terror continues.

You're oversimplifying things to the point where they're indistinguishable from reality. First of all, your statement has a grain of truth - Al Qaeda's short-term goals are political. They don't give 2 sh!ts that the U.S. supports despotic regimes, they simply want to be the despots. Bid Laden would like to bring Saudi Arabia and other nations under the control of their vision of Islam. They don't care about the welfare of the citizens as anything more than a fig leaf, their concern is that the Saudi regime is "backsliding" in their religious beliefs and practices and Al Qaeda wants to bring them back to the "true path" as they see it. The political system is an afterthought to them and it's hardly like their version will be more enlightened than what came before. They don't wish to overthrow the house of Saud because they're looking to implement "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" for their citizens, but rather so they can impose burkhas, mandatory beard lengths for men, and everything else that they see as "proper" Islamic behavior.

As far as supporting Israel goes for being a prime mover of 9/11, that's again just a convenient justification to allow you to wrap your hate into a slightly more politically-reasonable sounding wrapper. I've not seen any actions taken by Arabs in the entire lifetime to indicate that they give a rats ass about the welfare of the Palestinians, or anything to indicate Arabs have any feelings for them whatsoever. You don't care for the Palestinians as people, you merely appreciate them as weapons. If Israel was destroyed tomorrow, terrorism wouldn't come to a grinding halt in the Middle East, and Al Qaeda wouldn't decide their work was done.

Next, your question, "Is Jewish/American blood worth more than Arab/Muslim blood?" The answer to that question is an unqualified YES, and you've made it so. How could it be otherwise when Muslims say things like 'We worship death, you cling to life' or lionize suicide bombers?

The hypocrisy continues with America rallying the world around democratic principals while paying lip service to it in the M.E. After the Twin Towers fell, America pressed the regimes in the M.E. to become more democratic, but had second thoughts when Hamas won elections and Iraqis and Iranians elected conservatives as their leaders.

You don't understand what democracy means or have the insight to comment upon other's practices of it when you don't realize that one government peacefully urging another government to change its policies is a democratic method. A non-democratic government would have simply forcibly overthrown the Hamas government had they not agreed to change their policy if that's what we wanted.

The death and destruction that America has brought to Iraq is just the latest example of why Muslims are so angry. 100 Iraqis are killed everyday, over 11,000 in the past three months alone. The terror continues.

"If this be error, and upon me prov'd; I never writ, nor no man ever lov'd" Ultimately I dont' care if Muslims are angry. The "terror" you talk of will end when radical Islam is extinguished from this earth. Only when Islam reverts to being about "submission to God" instead of "submission to a megalomanical vision of ruling the world under the banner of our religion" will this end. And unfortunately at this point it appears that Islam will force the west to break Islam in order to save Islam, so in between there's likely going to need to be an intermediate step, "submission to the enlightenment principles of the west caused by the overwhelming military superiority of the west." Just like Imperial Japan, if it's required you will be broken, humbled, and the very foundations of your beliefs reduced to ashes in order to purge you of the rot which has taken hold of your souls.

 

[KlokWyze]

Originally posted by: bobdelt
Why is America so pro-Israel?
Because many believe the fate of Israel is the fate of the western world. And also, because the leaders america elects, are mostly pro isreal. Its silly how that works.

Where is the law that states Americans have to pay the income tax?
Congress passes bills that tax you.

Why wasn't there an immediate investigation into the LARGEST TERROR ATTACK IN US HISTORY(9/11)?

There was.

Why does the MSM demonize Iran for making nuclear weapons when conclusive evidence shows they cannot obtain them within DECADES? Because it takes less than decades, Ive seen reports that say within five years. Would you rather deal with this problem now, or when they have a bomb?


Why have no suspects ever been charged with the attacks of 9/11?
Because you can charge a dead person.

Why does the deficit grow larger year after year without any REAL plan to deal with it?

Tax Revenue increased this year, unfortunantly so did spending. Why? Because in all reality it isnt that big of a deal. The effects of running in a deficit arent that great. This isnt something we need to try to fix overnight, and we can't.

Where is the law that states Americans have to pay the income tax?
Please show me the law. The IRS can't seem to find it. Numerous former IRS employees haven't paid taxes in years, were taken to court by the IRS and WON ALL OF THEIR CASES due to the fact that the IRS COULD NOT SHOW them the law.

google Freedom to Fascism and watch the interview with Aaron Russo.

"The people of America are eager to learn the truth about how our government functions. It is time for the American people to understand that the Supreme Court has consistently ruled that the 16th Amendment did not give the government the authority to impose a direct unapportioned tax on the labor of the people. The IRS Code does not trump Supreme Court decisions. The Supreme Court has defined income, and it is neither wages nor labor."

Was the 16th amendment ever properly ratified by EVERY state? look @ "direct unapportioned tax". Is income tax unapportioned? no. The more you make, the higher % you pay. Until you become super-rich when you can just setup tax-free 'charities' and IF the government LETS you, invest in foriegn countries or depoist your money in a foreign bank account.

Why wasn't there an immediate investigation into the LARGEST TERROR ATTACK IN US HISTORY(9/11)?
NO. There wasnn't. As soon as those buildings fell. All the steel was trucked out to a port where it was shipped out to a FOREIGN COUNTRY to be SCRAPPED. Or did you know that? Oh thats right.... the FBI did find that little bag with a convenient little list of the 19 hijackers. HOW CONVENIENT. Oh yeah... and then they found a passport of one of the alleged highjackers ON THE GROUND a few city blocks from WTC1 & 2. How does a passport survive a 500mph impact and subsequent firebal with a building unharmed? :Q

If you don't believe any of what I stated above. Feel free to search news agencies. You will find plenty of articles.

Ill get the other questions after I get back from lunch.:laugh:

 

[Tom]

There isn't any justification for 9/11.

Associating legitimate grievances, like the US support of the Shah, with 9/11, does a lot of harm to any future possibilty of resolving those issues.

 

[piasabird]

There is no justification for 9/11.

The Meglomaniac that caused it is Bin Laden. This nut is only interested in forcing his way of life and his idealogy on everyone else in the world. He is drunk with power and he seeks to use that power to kill anyone and anything that opposes him. He is a new kind of Meglomaniac.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: randym431
Well here the right wing will go... saying those liberals only want to "understand" our enemies. Not take the "make my day" cowboy approach.
But till we do try to understand why they hate us so, terrorist will always and forever try attacking America.
And why do they? Well I remember the old Shaw of Iran fellow. You know, the ruler that looked more like someone you'd find in a high class sports bar hitting on chicks than a ruler of some country. But as I understand, the CIA put or helped put this guy in power. And the people of Iran knew it and there you have the formula for the hate.

People over there hold a grudge FOREVER. Even if things are controlled in the near future and the war does finally end, someday 25 or 35 or 50 years from now someone over there will remember back in 2006 and muster up enough new founded hate to attack us again 50 years from now. And by then they may have nukes. And we will ask "why did they do this, what did we do to them, and why did we not see it coming".

So what to do??? Well I hate to say it but it boils down to either us or them.
I remember that older guy from the reality tv show survivor. Roody I think was his name. He was on Larry King after that survivor series ended. Larry ask him what he would do about 9/11 and Bin Laden. Roody said he'd nuke them all. That sounded like a statement from a nut case but actually that is probably the only final solution to end terrorism against us once and for all. Otherwise, no war or democracy will ever put an end to terrorism against the USA.

You cannot 'end terrorism'. Ever. It's an idea; that a weaker force can fight against a stronger...sometimes it's directed against civilians to cause any hurt possible or encourage internal pressures resulting in policy changes.

You cannot 'nuke them all' because they're all over the place, including within our own country. They aren't a country, a race, a sex, a religion, etc. Sure, there are larger demographic slices, but that doesn't account for 'them all'.

Instead of fighting against terrorism we should be fighting for truth, justice, and equality. Take away the disease and the symptoms will cease. Destroy the symptoms and the disease just has time to grow.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: glenn1

THis information is not in support of Al Qaeda. It is to let Americans know why muslims celebrated on that day 5 years ago. I did not support the terrorist attacks but I understand why it happens. There is no rift in Islam or any other nonsense. Islam is used, like any other religion, as a banner for unity in what Al Qaeda calls its Jihad against America. Therefore, Americans should not see this as a clash of civilizations or religions, but as a political fight. The main point being that you reap what you sow.

Let us remember that America supports most of the most despicable regimes in the Middle East. These regimes, with the silent support of the United States, have ruled with an iron-fist for much of the past century and don't give two squirts of piss about their citizens. The United States, caring more for its energy and security needs than the citizens, didn't really care about these abuses. In addition to the despotic regimes, America also supported Israel, which has trampled on the Palestinians for so long. The Al Qaeda recognized Israel and these regimes as the near enemy and America as the far enemy. They decided to strike at the heart of America to put fear, kill, and bring instability to Americans just as America brings it to the muslim world through its support for Israel and despotic regimes. Many muslims get killed and its not even a footnote, but let 1 Jew or American get killed and it's suddenly world news. Is Jewish/AMerican blood worth more than Arab/Muslim blood? The hypocrisy continues with America rallying the world around democratic principals while paying lip service to it in the M.E. After the Twin Towers fell, America pressed the regimes in the M.E. to become more democratic, but had second thoughts when Hamas won elections and Iraqis and Iranians elected conservatives as their leaders.

The death and destruction that America has brought to Iraq is just the latest example of why Muslims are so angry. 100 Iraqis are killed everyday, over 11,000 in the past three months alone. The terror continues.

You're oversimplifying things to the point where they're indistinguishable from reality. First of all, your statement has a grain of truth - Al Qaeda's short-term goals are political. They don't give 2 sh!ts that the U.S. supports despotic regimes, they simply want to be the despots. Bid Laden would like to bring Saudi Arabia and other nations under the control of their vision of Islam. They don't care about the welfare of the citizens as anything more than a fig leaf, their concern is that the Saudi regime is "backsliding" in their religious beliefs and practices and Al Qaeda wants to bring them back to the "true path" as they see it. The political system is an afterthought to them and it's hardly like their version will be more enlightened than what came before. They don't wish to overthrow the house of Saud because they're looking to implement "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" for their citizens, but rather so they can impose burkhas, mandatory beard lengths for men, and everything else that they see as "proper" Islamic behavior.

Al Qaeda is an off-shoot of The Muslim Brotherhood, a highly influential political organization in the Middle East. Al Zawahiri, considered by many to be the true leader of Al Qaeda, came from the Muslim Brotherhood. Like you said, religion and politics are highly compatible. Nevertheless, Al Qaeda is using Islam as a banner for a political, not religious, reorganization of the Middle East.

As far as supporting Israel goes for being a prime mover of 9/11, that's again just a convenient justification to allow you to wrap your hate into a slightly more politically-reasonable sounding wrapper. I've not seen any actions taken by Arabs in the entire lifetime to indicate that they give a rats ass about the welfare of the Palestinians, or anything to indicate Arabs have any feelings for them whatsoever. You don't care for the Palestinians as people, you merely appreciate them as weapons. If Israel was destroyed tomorrow, terrorism wouldn't come to a grinding halt in the Middle East, and Al Qaeda wouldn't decide their work was done.

The Palestinians have never ruled their own land in the modern era. They were first ruled by Egyptians and Jordanians, then Israelis with her occuption. THey may have been used by others, but their plight is synonymous with the Iraqis and the colonized Middle East in the 19th and 20th century. IF Israel was destroyed tomorrow, the fighting would still continue, but that does not excuse the anger arabs feel towards Israel, their inept leadership, and their political masters in the West, especially America. The reality may not match the fantasy of bin Laden, but his grievences should be dismissed at our own peril.

Next, your question, "Is Jewish/American blood worth more than Arab/Muslim blood?" The answer to that question is an unqualified YES, and you've made it so. How could it be otherwise when Muslims say things like 'We worship death, you cling to life' or lionize suicide bombers?

Life and death are but different sides of the same coin. In African culture, when a person dies, people celebrate. In Indian philosophy, the materialism that man uses as an excuse to cling to every second of life is frowned upon. Instead, the philosophers want the living to do away with such materialism and focus on spiritual enlightenment. These beliefs and cultures are no different from the Islamic culture, where death is praised. I think you need to understand the philosophy behind those rhetorics before making such a naked comment.

The hypocrisy continues with America rallying the world around democratic principals while paying lip service to it in the M.E. After the Twin Towers fell, America pressed the regimes in the M.E. to become more democratic, but had second thoughts when Hamas won elections and Iraqis and Iranians elected conservatives as their leaders.

You don't understand what democracy means or have the insight to comment upon other's practices of it when you don't realize that one government peacefully urging another government to change its policies is a democratic method. A non-democratic government would have simply forcibly overthrown the Hamas government had they not agreed to change their policy if that's what we wanted.

Like when we overthrew the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan, and starved the Hamas government of finance when it refused to recognize Israel, trying to make it collapse? Don't make me laugh. In the end, as always, it was the citizens of Gaza and West Bank that suffered the most. ANd why is democracy acceptable to certain groups but not to others? If you say it isn't and that AMerica promotes democracy throughout the globe, then I ask you, has America just begun to promote it in the Middle East, after 9/11? The answer is because American hypocrisy had been exposed and its easier to deal with despotic states than democratic ones.

The death and destruction that America has brought to Iraq is just the latest example of why Muslims are so angry. 100 Iraqis are killed everyday, over 11,000 in the past three months alone. The terror continues.

"If this be error, and upon me prov'd; I never writ, nor no man ever lov'd" Ultimately I dont' care if Muslims are angry. The "terror" you talk of will end when radical Islam is extinguished from this earth. Only when Islam reverts to being about "submission to God" instead of "submission to a megalomanical vision of ruling the world under the banner of our religion" will this end. And unfortunately at this point it appears that Islam will force the west to break Islam in order to save Islam, so in between there's likely going to need to be an intermediate step, "submission to the enlightenment principles of the west caused by the overwhelming military superiority of the west." Just like Imperial Japan, if it's required you will be broken, humbled, and the very foundations of your beliefs reduced to ashes in order to purge you of the rot which has taken hold of your souls.

I think your last paragraph shows who I'm really talking to. You can't 'save' or 'break' Islam. That's a lot of tough talk from such a young civilization. America is only 300 years old. The West is about 2000-3000 years old, at the most. Islam is 1500 years old and the people of the Middle East have a culture going back at least 10,000 years.

 

[KlokWyze]

Originally posted by: piasabird
There is no justification for 9/11.

The Meglomaniac that caused it is Bin Laden. This nut is only interested in forcing his way of life and his idealogy on everyone else in the world. He is drunk with power and he seeks to use that power to kill anyone and anything that opposes him. He is a new kind of Meglomaniac.

Then why has Bin Laden not been charged with 9/11 by the FBI? Where is the evidence?Or do you just believe whatever News Corp.(FoxNews)/CNN/MSNBC tells you?

BTW NY Times, The Washington Post and countless other major papers are part of News Corporation, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch.

"In 1999, The Economist reported that Murdoch had made £1.4 billion ($2.1 billion) in profits over the previous 11 years but had paid no net corporation tax. It further reported, after an examination of what was available of the accounts, that Murdoch would normally have expected to pay a corporate tax of approximately $350 million. The article explained that the corporation's complex structure, international scope and use of offshore havens allowed News Corporation to avoid tax."

http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/politics/economist_murdoch.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/302366.stm

Let me @ this time also reiterate my point that the super-rich frequently pay less % taxes than Joe the cable guy. This guy makes BILLIONS, what do 1 of us make a year? what do 100,000 of us make year? Imagine if 100,000 of us simoultaneously decided pay little to no taxes. You think the government would notice that cash not flowing in?

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: KlokWyze

Originally posted by: piasabird
There is no justification for 9/11.

The Meglomaniac that caused it is Bin Laden. This nut is only interested in forcing his way of life and his idealogy on everyone else in the world. He is drunk with power and he seeks to use that power to kill anyone and anything that opposes him. He is a new kind of Meglomaniac.

Then why has Bin Laden not been charged with 9/11 by the FBI? Where is the evidence?Or do you just believe whatever News Corp.(FoxNews)/CNN/MSNBC tells you?

Uhh... So you figure that the current administration would launch a freakin' war on the other side of the planet based on 'mere allegations', yet wouldn't have it within their power to manufacture the evidence necessary to lock the guy away?

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: KlokWyze
Then why has Bin Laden not been charged with 9/11 by the FBI? Where is the evidence?Or do you just believe whatever News Corp.(FoxNews)/CNN/MSNBC tells you?

Because chances are great that we'll render him a blood smear on the side of a Pakistani mountain long before we could capture and try him in a court of law.

A better question would be why Islamic leaders are not issuing fatwas left and right against Bin Laden and al-qaeda if he is indeed derailing the principles of their religion. It's sort of like Pope Pius XII refusing to denounce Hilter, isn't it?

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: KlokWyze
Then why has Bin Laden not been charged with 9/11 by the FBI? Where is the evidence?Or do you just believe whatever News Corp.(FoxNews)/CNN/MSNBC tells you?

Because chances are great that we'll render him a blood smear on the side of a Pakistani mountain long before we could capture and try him in a court of law.

A better question would be why Islamic leaders are not issuing fatwas left and right against Bin Laden and al-qaeda if he is indeed derailing the principles of their religion. It's sort of like Pope Pius XII refusing to denounce Hilter, isn't it?

That's because the allegation isn't valid enough. Why bother when you can't take the question seriously.