Why scoff science?

[DanDaManJC]

So this is a pretty broad question and one that is also sincere. There's plenty of potential for flame bait in the topic... but it's not meant in any such way. In short, my question is, why is it that a certain set of American Christians absolutely scoff certain aspects of science, notably things like evolution and the big bang. That is, I have noticed that some people genuinely disregard the science as deeply as someone on the P&N forum would dismiss someone of an opposite opinion.

Before moving on, some background info is in order. Personally, as an engineering student I've learned, seen and actually done "science" firsthand and have witnessed it working. Furthermore, I've had enough background education with physics to realize that at least the big bang theory is by far a very valid theory. I can't say I'm as familiar with evolution, but given what I've read from both sides of the evolution argument, I must say I'm starting to lean towards the evolution side of things. I would like to qualify that I do agree there is plenty of controversy and there is always an element of the unknown with science. What I am saying though, is that it really does appear that 90% of the facts are lining up with the two aforementioned theories. With all that said, I’m not starting this topic to start a debate on the validity of those theories… instead my question is much more fundamental, I just think this is important context for any of the young-earthers or creationists reading the topic. Finally, I did grow up in a fundamentalist Christian home that did teach and believe the young earth creation myth. So I am familiar with more of the details… but the difference between me and someone who believes the young-earth stuff is that that someone else is making a conscience choice to believe this story. Given my background, I’m primarily directing my attention towards Christian intolerance, that said I know full well intolerance is a pretty universal human trait.

With this said, why bother asking? Well, to put it very bluntly, it honestly dumbfounds me how some people can be so willing to dismiss empirical fact because it disagrees with their religion. I pretty much want to know why a person to can act in such a way. Unfortunately, stating it this way vastly oversimplifies why I’m curious… this has been a common experience:

I’ll be in a youth group setting, while I was still attending church, and the topic of the evolution will come up. In short, other youth instinctively boo and / or automatically reject the idea. Presumably trusting that the Intelligent Design guys have it right. It’d be just like going to an atheist meeting and trying to advocate religion as the ultimate truth – just imagine the virility and pwnage you’d receive if you did such a thing.

Another scenario:

While discussing apologetics, a small group leader literally states that science has it out to get God in the form of evolutionary biology and the big bang.

General Example:

There’s a definite culture of mistrust and, what I perceive to be, ignorance of science within these groups of people. Now I could very well wrong about the ignorance issue – but the idea that science is out to get God and so forth is pervasive throughout the entire culture of evangelical Christianity.

Now my biggest gripe with the aforementioned scenarios is that, from my experience, with high school science education in my area, does absolutely no justice in showing how data driven the scientific method is. (For those interested, I’d suggest looking into Einstein’s photoelectric effect experiment or how the stern-gerlach experiment lead to the formulation of quantum mechanics to see a real example of science in the works – the point is these theories aren’t concocted as anti-God proofs but rather derived from natural observations) In short, I’m pretty confident that at least my peers really don’t have a solid scientific education. I’m not so sure the same could be said of those teaching said ideas. I think my greatest error in the past was to wrongly assume that it was an ignorance of science that lead people to have this maligned view of the scientific community.

Let me again take some steps back. I really do want some feedback from other creationist style folk… if you want you can PM me. Really, to all degrees, this is a culture war. From the creationist POV you have television spouting out documentaries on the big bang and evolution all the time, never giving God a chance. Same for your schools and govt… this world really is dominated by the forces of evil. You see people like Richard Dawkens and Christopher Hitchens spouting off uber-atheist viewpoints, presumably as science’s representatives. And so on.

With that last paragraph I might’ve just answered my own question… but still… why? In the face of so much empirical evidence. I’m under no illusions that science is perfect – just look at climategate, but time and time again, 90% of the time, it works. Science simply works. Whether that has to deal with quantum mechanics and 25nm nand flash memory or general relativity and planetary motion.

In summary, a short list of questions that inspired this post.

Is the general Christian perception really that science is out there to disprove God? Specifically, are scientists really scheming in dark rooms plotting the most logical way to prove a naturalistic cause?

I feel like there's a false dichotomy between accepting faith and science. By definition, science is just about taking measurements and observation of the physical world, religion in science, by definition, inhabit two different spheres. Sure people like Dawkens extend science to support their atheist worldview, but just look at the Catholic church's stance on evolution or even St. Augustine and his view of a literal interpretation of the bible.

Obviously the view that there is this dichotomy does exist... why?

Finally, as grown adults, have you actually taken the time to read up on these theories work? I know that's a VERY loaded question... and quite blunt and very biased. I won't hide that at all. This really goes back to my own personal experience -- notably that almost all the young people and peers I know that believe the creation story (literally) don't have any proper understanding of how the big bang was formulated and so forth.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Engineers...

 

[Crono]

It's easy to scoff at anything.

Silly thread.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

dey tuk arour rayligeon.

 

[sandorski]

Their book is Infallible, direct from the mouth of god. Science is obviously Satanic and a lie to fool people into not believing in god. Who will Pay the church if everyone stops believing?

Think of the clergy, people!! :\:\:\

 

[bignateyk]

scoff scoff scoff

 

[ebaycj]

They scoff at science until they can sue for big dollars for an injury due to a mis-designed component (toyota gas pedals, for example). After that they're physics experts.

 

[sdifox]

Because it is not something you can have faith in

 

[nerp]

How can you call yourself an educated person with a background in science yet you're merely "leaning" on the side of evolution. Are you serious? Have you even read Origin of Species yet?

 

[FelixDeCat]

You are taking a few examples and extrapolating that trait on all. Im Catholic and think God used the spark of life through evolution to create us. The Earth is 4 billion years old, etc.

You just have to accept the fact that there are all kinds of people out there with different beliefs or no belief at all.

 

[polarmystery]

Because most people lack empathy and are naturally ignorant

 

[JulesMaximus]

I've actually met people like this too. They are downright militant in their ridiculous beliefs.

Talking to the creationist dolts rationally is like trying to teach a frog how to use a computer.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Why don't you read some biographies/accounts of scientists who switched to a Biblical view? Surely science couldn't lead them to the Bible, no?

 

[Modelworks]

In the face of so much empirical evidence. I’m under no illusions that science is perfect – just look at climategate, but time and time again, 90% of the time, it works. Science simply works. Whether that has to deal with quantum mechanics and 25nm nand flash memory or general relativity and planetary motion.

It is because some things like evolution while they have a lot of theories and some evidence it has lots of holes still so it leaves room for doubt. We do not live long enough to see a complex animal change into something else totally different. It isn't like with a simple science experiment where you add vinegar to baking soda and see it react.

Quantum mechanics is a bad example ,that is a field that changes often. Every year people are releasing papers that refute each others theories. Even Hawking was blasted by his peers for Hawking radiation which is still unproven .

I feel like there's a false dichotomy between accepting faith and science. By definition, science is just about taking measurements and observation of the physical world, religion in science, by definition, inhabit two different spheres.

Science requires faith as well. Hawking has faith in his calculations and theories where some of his peers did not. If you have a theory you are relying on your faith in what you believe until you have proven it. With religion people are relying on their faith that there is something greater than themselves and are willing to wait till after they die for the proof.
Faith isn't some mystical power, it is people believing in an idea based on what they cannot prove at the time.

Personally I don't believe the human brain is able to comprehend the true state of things. We have a limitation that we cannot overcome. The problem of everything comes from something. Our thought process is one of C comes from B and B comes from A , but when we get to A where does it come from ? And if we find where it comes from , what formed that ?

It goes on to infinity with the way we think. We cannot accept that something just exist. It is like a child repeatedly asking why to everything you say. In some ways we are more evolved than animals and not so in others. Animals I doubt spend their day wondering who created the trees or water, they just accept that it is there and that is all they need to know.

 

[sandorski]

It is because some things like evolution while they have a lot of theories and some evidence it has lots of holes still so it leaves room for doubt. We do not live long enough to see a complex animal change into something else totally different. It isn't like with a simple science experiment where you add vinegar to baking soda and see it react.

Quantum mechanics is a bad example ,that is a field that changes often. Every year people are releasing papers that refute each others theories. Even Hawking was blasted by his peers for Hawking radiation which is still unproven .




Science requires faith as well. Hawking has faith in his calculations and theories where some of his peers did not. If you have a theory you are relying on your faith in what you believe until you have proven it. With religion people are relying on their faith that there is something greater than themselves and are willing to wait till after they die for the proof.
Faith isn't some mystical power, it is people believing in an idea based on what they cannot prove at the time.

Personally I don't believe the human brain is able to comprehend the true state of things. We have a limitation that we cannot overcome. The problem of everything comes from something. Our thought process is one of C comes from B and B comes from A , but when we get to A where does it come from ? And if we find where it comes from , what formed that ?

It goes on to infinity with the way we think. We cannot accept that something just exist. It is like a child repeatedly asking why to everything you say. In some ways we are more evolved than animals and not so in others. Animals I doubt spend their day wondering who created the trees or water, they just accept that it is there and that is all they need to know.

Science Fail.

 

[Modelworks]

Science Fail.

What a waste of the internet.

 

[Juddog]

Religious people have mistrusted science all the way back to the stone ages. The reasons are simple; some people are still idiots while others have advanced their intelligence. The smart ones invented technology, worked together and forwarded the study in various sciences. The dumb ones can't understand the principles upon which even basic devices work yet are trained to use the devices every day. How many people that you know for instance could even reassemble a microwave that was taken apart?

To make matters worse, humans have a tendency to passed on learned behavior from one generation to the next, which is a natural animal instinct. Thus we have had basic things passed on from one generation to the next all the way back from thousands of years ago, which includes belief systems. The people back then didn't have the ability to understand even basic things that we take for granted now, such as the earth rotating around the sun, yet many people still don't understand how it works - even today!

We also find stupid people breeding more than the smart ones, making matters worse. We should be tying the tubes / performing vasectomies of the ignorant, and encouraging the smart people to breed more, because natural selection has left the building when it comes to humans.

 

[meltdown75]

how the hell do you people find the energy to discuss the same sh*t every day

 

[Modelworks]

The reasons are simple; some people are still idiots while others have advanced their intelligence. The smart ones invented technology, worked together and forwarded the study in various sciences. The dumb ones can't understand the principles upon which even basic devices work yet are trained to use the devices every day.

Maybe if the 'smart' people considered sharing and teaching the 'stupid' people and stopped acting as if they were superior things would change.

How many people that you know for instance could even reassemble a microwave that was taken apart?

My mother can make award winning 4 layer cakes and cook gourmet food , can you ? Does that mean you are stupid because you cannot ? Of course not, it just means nobody has taught you how.

 

[sandorski]

how the hell do you people find the energy to discuss the same sh*t every day

Jolt, Doritos, and Snickers. Thank Science!

 

[Juddog]

Maybe if the 'smart' people considered sharing and teaching the 'stupid' people and stopped acting as if they were superior things would change.

The knowledge is all there to learn and to study, it's just the ignorant choose to not do so.

If you look at the vast collection of intellectual wealth available online nowadays, including the free online seminars offered by various colleges, you have all the potential to learn things on your own. The ignorant people I have met are just lazy about it; they don't understand the complexities so instead fabricate their own version of how things are in order to survive in today's society.

 

[Blackjack200]

It is because some things like evolution while they have a lot of theories and some evidence it has lots of holes still so it leaves room for doubt. We do not live long enough to see a complex animal change into something else totally different. It isn't like with a simple science experiment where you add vinegar to baking soda and see it react.

From what I understand, there are thousands of observed examples of speciation, not to mention an extensive fossil record supporting evolution. Do you think that our understanding of stellar life has "holes" in it because we can't live billions of years and witness a star be born, burn through its fuel and collapse? The atomic theory of chemistry was settled long before anyone could see an atom in a microscope.

Quantum mechanics is a bad example ,that is a field that changes often. Every year people are releasing papers that refute each others theories. Even Hawking was blasted by his peers for Hawking radiation which is still unproven .

Science requires faith as well. Hawking has faith in his calculations and theories where some of his peers did not. If you have a theory you are relying on your faith in what you believe until you have proven it. With religion people are relying on their faith that there is something greater than themselves and are willing to wait till after they die for the proof.
Faith isn't some mystical power, it is people believing in an idea based on what they cannot prove at the time.

You might be partial to a theory, but that holds no water until you provide evidence. Religious people never provide any evidence of anything. That's the primary distinction between science and faith.

Personally I don't believe the human brain is able to comprehend the true state of things. We have a limitation that we cannot overcome. The problem of everything comes from something. Our thought process is one of C comes from B and B comes from A , but when we get to A where does it come from ? And if we find where it comes from , what formed that ?

It goes on to infinity with the way we think. We cannot accept that something just exist. It is like a child repeatedly asking why to everything you say. In some ways we are more evolved than animals and not so in others. Animals I doubt spend their day wondering who created the trees or water, they just accept that it is there and that is all they need to know.

You're asking metaphysical questions at this point, and science usually doesn't get into those.

 

[SunSamurai]

Science has been proven to be dumb

 

[Hacp]

You're officially an idiot.

 

[Modelworks]

The knowledge is all there to learn and to study, it's just the ignorant choose to not do so.

If you look at the vast collection of intellectual wealth available online nowadays, including the free online seminars offered by various colleges, you have all the potential to learn things on your own. The ignorant people I have met are just lazy about it; they don't understand the complexities so instead fabricate their own version of how things are in order to survive in today's society.

Have you sat down with these people and taught them how to use a computer, how to find information online or where these resources are ?

Often it isn't being lazy , some people see learning new things as too big for them to comprehend so they feel overwhelmed. Imagine if someone took you to a hospital operating room and told you, today you are going to do a heart transplant, here are the instruments and the patient, ready ?

You would feel overwhelmed, you don't understand anatomy, medicine or surgery. I have a lot of experience with people that have had no computer experience, mainly seniors. One of them was a college professor who taught theoretical mathematics for 40+ years and had never used a computer. When he got one to email his grand kids he was lost and said he had put it off for years because he didn't know how to work that 'thing' . He wasn't stupid or unwilling to learn, it just seemed like too much .