Why phsyx isn't in more games ?

tweakboy

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2010
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www.hammiestudios.com
It is sad that this great technology is not in more games and game engines.

I think I know why after research, you can basically do the same phsyx stuff without using phsyx, instead by tweaking your engine or using DX11 hmmmmm


If every game supported it, then I would get a dedicated Phsyx card, but that is pointless now.. since I dont play batman or Dirt 3 ,,,, sighs
 
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imaheadcase

Diamond Member
May 9, 2005
3,850
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Its not "great" by any means. Most game engines support it in software, and with modern CPU you don't need it much.

Never mind the fact that its just "more of stuff" on screen, and does not really contribute to the game play.
 

RavenSEAL

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2010
8,661
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Because nVidia licensed it for themselves only and the amount of money to throw around to the developers for wasting time in features only people with high end SLi rigs is very scarce.
 

Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
6,298
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The problem is that nVidia locked physx to their hardware, effectively preventing half the pc gamers out there from using it. Plus (afaik) it's not enabled on the consoles. So why would game developers bother to spend the extra time/resources to implement it when such a small portion of the total market would be able to use it?
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
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(I'm assuming by PhysX he means GPU accelerated PhysX, and all references to PhysX mean GPU PhysX, before idiots come and say "PhysX works on everything omg!").

Because it's not worth supporting for most developers, because it adds a small amount to a tiny minority of the market, but requires investment to actually add the extra stuff.

3 (or 4 systems).
Only 1 could ever use hardware PhysX.
In that one market, only a portion of users could ever use PhysX.

Given the developers can't even be bothered to properly code CONTROLS for the PC, or graphics options, what makes you think they would bother to put in effort to add extra stuff above and beyond the basic porting of the game?
 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
1
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except for interactive smoke and fog, why would you want it? physx is so sloppy that it cuts the framerate almost in half for crap you do not not even notice. Nvidia will have you believe that swaying trees, sparks, and leaves falling need hardware physx which is laughable.
 

ArchAngel777

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
5,223
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Not that I am a fan of nVidia locking out PhysX (yeah I know, technically not a lockout), but I sure would like to see a lot more physics in games, whether it be via nVidia or Havok, provided it is hardware accelerated.
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
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Before Nvidia bought Aegia, I checked out PhysX... It seemed really difficult to program for, and open source physics libraries like ODE seemed much simplier in comparision. Games like World of Goo and others used ODE.
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
22,047
877
126
Screw Physx, I wish there were more games in general other than the 2-3 decent games PCs get a year.
 

Magic Carpet

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2011
3,477
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PhysX was the reason I bought the now gotten-rid-of GTS 450. It played Mafia 2 quite smoothly and very deliciously.

Really, should have been licensed to AMD to make the feature widespread.

Screw PhysX, I am probably going ATI next year. Just because of the ATI Tray Tools. Does nVidia have something to compete it with?

So....

For me its ATT > PhysX ;-p

Control is everything. Factory CCC as well as Nvidia control panel are so.... sucky.
 

greenhawk

Platinum Member
Feb 23, 2011
2,007
1
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As mentioned, it is more of a dead end tech than anything else. Started as a addon card which did not get that much support from developers (the card was not cheap so little uptake).

nVidia bought it (tech or business, not sure) and limited it to their own cards. A software version does exist but it appears to be rather badly coded (need a extra high end core to run the code better than a cheap video card).

If nVidia just give up on it (ie: no more exclusive), it might take off some more, but that is not likly.
 

boxleitnerb

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2011
2,605
6
81
PhysX was the reason I bought the now gotten-rid-of GTS 450. It played Mafia 2 quite smoothly and very deliciously.

Really, should have been licensed to AMD to make the feature widespread.

Screw PhysX, I am probably going ATI next year. Just because of the ATI Tray Tools. Does nVidia have something to compete it with?

So....

For me its ATT > PhysX ;-p

Control is everything. Factory CCC as well as Nvidia control panel are so.... sucky.

Nvidia Inspector. Control...funny. Nvidia lets you control much much more than AMD probably ever will.

Regarding PhysX:
It's a closed system so it doesn't pay off to program for it. I want GPU-accelerated physics as an open standard, and I want it now. Where is Bullet? AMD touted loudly they would support it and what happened? GPU-PhysX has no competition and that is just sad.
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
2
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everyone attempting to answear Tweakboys question seriously is getting Trolled by him.

the end :)

Where is Bullet? AMD touted loudly they would support it and what happened? GPU-PhysX has no competition and that is just sad.

I dont think developers want to pick sides, amd or nvidia, so most probably dont.

Havok physics got bought up by Intel.. What needs to happend is nvidia to give up on PhsyX, once it does that developers will pickup on something open source that everyone can use.

I actually think nvidia *trying* to get physic on GPU selling is hurting the development of games doing so.
Because developers dont want to do something that under 50% of the market can use.

Soon as physX is gone, GPU accelerated physic will take off quick, with something open sourced that both sides can use.
 
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Magic Carpet

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2011
3,477
233
106
Nvidia Inspector. Thank you.

I need to downgrade back to XP first and check it extensively. Windows 7 and Geforce 6200 isn't the best combination, rofl.
 

boxleitnerb

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2011
2,605
6
81
Bullet is open, so they would not have to pick sides. Developers could choose it and just not use PhysX. Question is, why don't they do that? GPU physics by Havok is essentially dead - why would Intel let the competition have their way with their CPUs? Intel wants physics processing on their products, not someone elses.
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
2
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Bullet is open, so they would not have to pick sides. Developers could choose it and just not use PhysX. Question is, why don't they do that? GPU physics by Havok is essentially dead - why would Intel let the competition have their way with their CPUs? Intel wants physics processing on their products, not someone elses.


I have no idea.... I just googled and found out some titles do use it:


"Riptide GP" (for android)
Disney's "Cars 2" (pc)
Futuremark 3Dmark 11 (pc)
Hydro Thunder Hurricane (for XBox 360)
Zero Gear (pc)
Cocoto Surprise (for Wii)
Trials HD (Xbox 360)

from wiki: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_%28software%29)
Toy Story 3: The Video Game
Grand Theft Auto IV
Red Dead Redemption
Free Realms
HotWheels: Battle Force 5
Gravitronix
Madagascar Kartz
Regnum Online
Blood Drive
Hydro Thunder Hurricane

.
.
.

.
.

It is being used just not enough.
Havok and PhysX both have more games with it.
Bullet seems to be really popular with movie makers, and 3D renders.

it seems like:
Havok > PhysX > bullet (with amount of games released for it).

But I think Havok and PhysX have been around longer, maybe Bullet will catch on, who knows.
 
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SHAQ

Senior member
Aug 5, 2002
738
0
76
Unreal 3 already supports PhysX. I imagine it isn't difficult to code the same effects for the same engine. Unreal 3 is the most popular engine so Nvidia should have been putting PhysX in every Unreal 3 game to increase their installed base. They dropped the ball and it never became what it could have become.
 

Concillian

Diamond Member
May 26, 2004
3,751
8
81
It's a Catch-22 problem.

Consumers won't buy hardware explicity for PhysX until a large percentage of games support PhysX

Developers won't spend extra development time on PhysX until a large percentage of consumers have PhysX capable hardware.

It's the same problem with most highly proprietary "standards" (Sony Memory stick, betamax, etc...). It doesn't matter how good it is, when only a small fraction of the total market has access to it, MFRs will shoot themselves in the foot if they go all in supporting the proprietary standard.

I believe an OpenCL physics solution would eventually work it's way into the mainstream. I mean nVidia bought PhysX like when? 3? 4? years ago? At one point there was significant chatter in this forum that it would be a big part of purchase decisions. But if it hasn't caught on by now, I doubt it will. May as well bite the bullet and start opening up the standard. Port it to OpenCL and charge 1c per GPU / APU for PhysX use and license it to Intel and AMD and make more money from it than nVidia has in the last 4 years.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,677
6,250
126
If Nvidia wasn't so anal about locking out ATI/AMD GPU's, they could have sold a crapload of Mid-Level cards for ATI/AMD Users to use as PhysX accelerators. Thus greatly increasing the available market for PhysX.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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I haven't played many games released in the past 4 years, but I've always thought that Havok was the best (mainly because physx usually just adds more of the same objects). Max Payne 2 had revolutionary physics for its time and one of the few newer games I've played (Sonic Generations) also used Havok and the physics were really cool. I saw a video of DmC today and it looked like it had some pretty damn cool physics.

Anyway, I actually think that PhysX has hurt the increased use of advanced physics, but so would any vendor based standard.
 

ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
7
81
wow! post after post of misinformation!

OP here is your answers:

http://physxinfo.com/news/tag/nvidia/


qoutes:

"PhysXInfo.com: Over last years, amount of GPU PhysX games is actually decreasing. There were five games in 2009, three in 2010 and so far only one in 2011. How can you explain that?

Tony Tamasi: It was a choice on our part. We had a large amount of resources we could otherwise dedicate to content, but we needed to advance the core technology. We needed to get PhysX 3 done, and we needed to get APEX done to the degree where it is usable by game developers. We had to put a lot of resources there, which meant that some of those resources weren’t directly working on games.

But in the long term, game developers can actually use PhysX and APEX, and make use of the GPU without significant amounts of effort, so that a year or two years from now more games will come out using GPU physics."

"Rev Lebaredian: When we initially acquired Ageia, we made a big effort to move many games over to GPU PhysX. We learned a lot in that period of time: getting GPU physics into games, what are the problems, what works and what doesn’t. That gave us the opportunity to regroup, refocus, and figure out how to do it correctly.

We made a conscious decision. After we did a bunch of PhysX and APEX games in 2009 and early 2010, we said “Ok, we have learned enough, we need to sit down and focus on finishing APEX and changing it based on what we just learned, as well as PhysX 3”. Doing as many titles as we were doing before was just going to slow us down.

It made more sense to slow down the content pipeline but get the tools right, but that puts us in the position when once those are complete, it is actually less work for us to get PhysX in games.

This slowdown has not been because of any problems. It is something that we have decided to do."

Summery:
After working on many physx titles, Nvidia learned a lot. They decided to put more resources in advancing physx in areas such as implementation, tools, etc. They are putting more time perfecting the core technology and working on physX 3.

So now that they ave a better idea of how to do physx, instead of spending time and money on multiple games, they feel they need to use these valuable resources on improving the technology.........well just read it yourself.

Physx is apperently more complex than many ppl care to notice. Really, you would think they would be multitudes of ppl celebrating the fact that very few titles have advanced GPU accelerated physx lately. As much as they complained they should be dancing in the streets by now. But Batman, the one game this whole yr came out and the stink fest once again came to life. Its just something to complain about, i guess.

I would say, physX is still in its infancy. Nvidia has some ways to go with it, and they still claim to be investing into this technology. I think its an interesting concept and i hope it continues to improve into something wonderful. Some ppl want it dead yesterday. Its not dead though. Nvidia is investing their resources into the core technology instead of spending so much cash developing it into games, especially while they see so many places for improvement.
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
2
0
I think Bullet Physics through DirectCompute (mircosoft) is gonna be the winner. It works for everyone, and usually things with microsoft behinde them win out in the end, kinda like Glide vs DirectX.

screw nvidia and their physX.