Why not run my PSU without its cover/enclosure to cool it better?

[puddnhead]

OK, I know one obvious reason -- so I don't electrocute myself. But I am trying to build a quiet PC, and I have done a lot of things already to maximize my cooling to noise ratio:

1) use Sonata case

2) mod Sonata to put in a seperator (made from an HVAC duct cover bought at a home supply store) beneath PSU to create a separated PSU "duct" isolated from rest of the case, with air source fed to PSU exclusively from "Antec holes" in case sides (I was inspired to do this by pictures of the prototype of the new Antec P-180 case)

3) buy 90nm a64 3200+ to minimize heat generation

4) replace northbridge fan on my gigabyte ga-k8ns ultra-939 with a Zalman northbridge passive cooler

5) use Zalman 7000-AlCu with fanmate2 as CPU cooler, and also activate smart fan controls in gigabyte BIOS

6) spend friggin' HOURS routing all the cables to maximize airflow.

So ... here I am, looking at this machine, thinking what else can I do (mind you it';s already pretty quiet, but why not improve it if I can?) and it occurs to me that the PSU is probably the biggest heat worry right now, so how can I improve it's cooling without adding more fan whir? The PSU is an Antec Truepower 380s (ie the stock psu in the Sonata), which includes circuitry to adjust the fan speed for temperature. So my reasoning is if I just make the existing fans do more cooling per same RPM, then the Truepower will runs the fans slower to achieve the same cooling, and my machine will automatically be quieter. Does that make sense? If so my next thought is, how best to make the exisiting ventilation cool the PSU better? Why not by removing the single largest obstruction to the free flwo of cool air through the hot PSU circuitry -- the PSU cover? I'm thinking to leave the base (where everything is attached) and the back (where it is exposed to the outside of the case), but remove 3-4 of the other sides (haven't decided if I want to go too extreme and cut the back out until I've had some time to evaluate what just removing the sides I can just unscrew off).

Is there some reason that it has to be in place when running? One reason I can think of is to minimize dust collection, but ... I've already put filtering on the "Antec hole" intake vents that feed the PSU chamber, and anywya I know too well from 20 years of experience that dust is gonna get in there anyway, and actually the PSU cover is what PREVENTS me from easily getting it out with a vaccum/air blower. My next thought is, maybe it's for RFI reasons? Does the PSU create RFI? If it does, would the case enclosure block it sufficiently? The Sonata has fairly thick (.8mm?) steel.

That leaves me with only one other thng to think about, safety, aka making sure I don't stick my fingers in there while it's running, or before the capacitors discharge after turning it off. But realistically the only way that could possibly happen, due to the construciton of the Sonata case & how I totally sealed off the upper part of the case with the PSU apart from the rest of the case with that HVAC ducting, is if I REALLY go out of my way to do it.

So, what does anyone think? Anyone ever run their PSU in their case without the cover, and have any words of experience to share? Any engineers here to tell me what I haven't thought of? It seems like this is a fairly common sense thing to attempt, but I spent almost an hour searching forums/googling & haven't found any discussion of it

 

[hondAS2ooo170]

if u remove the cover of the psu, u just made everythng in ur system warmer. this a reason because the cover directs the hot air from the psu out, and stoping it from going into the case. like a heatsheild. and if u remove the cover it will heat up the air therefore the hot air will escape into the case. and i know u dont want that. also it is the stupidest thing to do (NOT TRYING TO FLAME). besides the system is very quiet even without all those mods to the fans, cpu fans, etc. it is as quiet enough.

 

[hondAS2ooo170]

if u want it even quieter y dont u buy a h2o cooling system them it will b very quiet.

 

[puddnhead]

Originally posted by: hondAS2ooo170
if u remove the cover of the psu, u just made everythng in ur system warmer. this a reason because the cover directs the hot air from the psu out, and stoping it from going into the case. like a heatsheild. and if u remove the cover it will heat up the air therefore the hot air will escape into the case. and i know u dont want that. also it is the stupidest thing to do (NOT TRYING TO FLAME). besides the system is very quiet even without all those mods to the fans, cpu fans, etc. it is as quiet enough.

Thanks for the response and, LOL, thanks for being so ... diplomatic!

I think you are missing the point, that getting the hot air out of the inside of the PSU is my intent, and also perhaps you may not have read my post very carefully, I have modded the Sonata case to create a separate air channel/duct/not-sure-what-to-call-it, a space nearly completely isolated from the rest of the case. It's too bad I don't have a picture (I'll look into getting one, if anyone shows interest), but here is a shot from another guy who did something similiar to what I have (so far) -- the differences being I don't have that extra fan in back, I am using an HVAC cutout as the separator, have filtering over the "Antec" holes, and I also have a lot of vinyl closed-cell phone in place to more completely close teh compartment. In other words, I don't expect the hot air to spread throughout the case, I expect it would not not escape this channel, I expect the airflow for the PSU cooling to be

1) in thorugh the antec holes (and maybe a bit through the fornt of the channel where the optical bays are), then

2) through the psu & out the back, the airflow being drawn out that way by the truepower 380's single reamounted fan at the back of the case. In other words, all the air heated by teh PSU is being pushed out the back.

My thinking is that removing the PSU enclosure sides wouuldn't change that airflow one bit, all it would do is improve it by removing most of the obstructions to it.

And again, I am inspired in this idea not only by the picture above, but also by the prototype of the forthcoming $200+ Antec P-180 case. My questioni could be applied to that picture as well -- at the point you have created an entirely separated channel for the PSU alone that restricts, why not help out your fans & airflow by making the entire channel the effect PSU case by removing the cover? I mean, i understand why Antec won't sell it that way (lawsuits and all for leaving those dangerous power sources exposed), but why shouldn't the individual user consider such a mod for this case?

Originally posted by: hondAS2ooo170
if u want it even quieter y dont u buy a h2o cooling system them it will b very quiet.

There are a lot of things I could do to queit it in other ways if I spent enough money or time, I guess I could even buy an Athlon64 3800+ and underclock it if I really want. But I'd like to keep discussion limited to the confines of the current setup I have if that's OK, for better or for worse I pretty much chose the Sonata on the basis of superior air-cooling ability, so if I wanted to start all over I probablywould buy a totally different case. Thanks.

 

[wisdomtooth]

Puddnhead:

That Antec PSU has two fans pushing air out. It is a major part of your case ventilation, and if you try to isolate it from the rest of your machine, the rest of your machine would heat up.

Hot air from your HDs, the GPU and the CPU will rise to the top of your Sonata case, where the PSU's fans will help exhaust it out the back. Blocking off the PSU fan from the rest of your computer will only trap air up there.

 

[puddnhead]

Originally posted by: wisdomtooth
Puddnhead:

That Antec PSU has two fans pushing air out. It is a major part of your case ventilation, and if you try to isolate it from the rest of your machine, the rest of your machine would heat up.

Hot air from your HDs, the GPU and the CPU will rise to the top of your Sonata case, where the PSU's fans will help exhaust it out the back. Blocking off the PSU fan from the rest of your computer will only trap air up there.

Thanks, but fyi the antec truepower 380s ("s" stands for silent version I believe) that comes stock in the sonata actually only has one fan, and it is designed to run at low RPM/CFM for noise reduciton purposes. Also, the rest of the case is exhausted by an (also stock) very large 120mm exhaust fan mounted right beneath the PSU -- i.e. at the top of the "reduced case," now that I have blocked off the top 4" or so where the PSU is. yu can see part of it in the bottom of the frame in the first picture I linked in my last post. That fan & its much higher CFM/much less impeded airflow path from the HD/GPU/CPU undoubtably accomplishes the vast lion's share of the air evacuation from the mainboard area in the stock Sonata.

I just finished my first build of this machine last night & don't have a lot of experience with it yet, but after running memtest86 on it at stock speed for over 9 hours I checked the CPU temperature in the BIOS before leaving my house and it said 29 degrees, and I "verified" this by placing my hand in front of the two rear exhaust fans and noting they were relatively cool (the 120mm more so than the PSU one), then taking off the side and noting that I felt no particuarly warm air rushed from either case cavity, nor did the zalman 7000 even feel warm to the touch. Yes, that could change under load, but I think that is at least encouraging, no?

Also I am not sure what you are saying -- on the one had you are saying that unimpeded airflow from the whole case to the PSU fan is need to evacuate the hot air from the rest of the case, but then you seem to go on to say that if I keep the PSU in a separate channel, then that same PSU fan won't even be capable of cooling just that small part of the chssis alone without help? Maybe you can clarify?

Finally, just to emphasize I'll repeat that Antec's forthcoming new top-of-the-line case P-180 (link to pic in my previous post) is explicitly designed to do exactly what you say is a bad idea -- isolate the PSU and it's fan from the rest of the case. The only diff is that its channel is at the bottom, not the top.

Anyway, while I'm happy to answer questions about this case mod of a separate CPU if anyone has them, that isn't my real purpose in creating this thread, I've already satisfied myself via research & my own brief experience so far that it is at the very least worth experimenting with. My purpose in creating this thread is to find out if anyone knows of any reasons why that psu enclsoure should stay in place, and if anyone has any experience on how cooling works when running without one on.

 

[GodLovesPunk12345]

Fyi, Memtest checks your memory.. won't really heat up your CPU. Run Prime95 torture test on the "In-place large FFTs" setting and I assure you your CPU temp will increase.

 

[puddnhead]

Originally posted by: GodLovesPunk12345
Fyi, Memtest checks your memory.. won't really heat up your CPU. Run Prime95 torture test on the "In-place large FFTs" setting and I assure you your CPU temp will increase.

Yes, I understand that, which is why I wrote "Yes, that could change under load, but I think that is at least encouraging, no?" I'm not TOTALLY clueless As I wrote, I just finished the hardware build of the machine last night, so I ran what I could. Prime95 is a windows program and that isn't installed. Also, you do realize that the cpu had to generate and run those machine words that are being moved into memory addresses, and also that the memory controller of the A64 is on-chip? That CPU wasn't calculating mersenne numbers all night, no, but nor was it just whistlin' Dixie either.

 

[Operandi]

It's a bad idea.... with the cover removed the PSU would run hotter, not cooler. The cover/enclosure acts as a guide for the air flow within the PSU, guiding the air over the heatsinks. Without the cover the internal components of the PSU would just get hotter due to lack of air flow.

 

[Dough1397]

easiest way to find out is to try it.... unscrew it... use soem diodest to test temp.... if its hotted than screw the cover/shielding back on... end of story... g'nite folks

 

[jonnyGURU]

Umm... With the cover off, the air doesn't flow over the PSU's heatsinks. Your PSU's heatsinks are shaped and positioned the way they are, in relation to the fan, so they are kept cool. Open it up and the heat just pours throughout your case. Some people will say that the PSU is part of the PC's cooling solution, but that's not always true.

The ideal solution is a water cooler with a truly "silent" PSU, like the Antec Phantom. The water cooling will pull heat out of the case and then there will be less heat inside of the case eliminating the need for a PSU fan. The Phantom is a giant heatsink. So it's actually BUILT to dissipate it's heat via heatsinks.

There are better designs out there. The Phantom's heatsinks are inside of the chassis. There's a model out there (forget who makes it) that has a heatsink sticking about 2" out of the BACK of the case, thus dissipating the heat outside of the case.

Expensive? Yes. But there's a reason why the solution to a quiet PC isn't to pull all of the fans out of your power supply.

 

[puddnhead]

Open it up and the heat just pours throughout your case. ...Expensive? Yes. But there's a reason why the solution to a quiet PC isn't to pull all of the fans out of your power supply.

i already addressed why the "heat pouting through the rest of the case" cannot happen.

I never proposed taking out any fans.

I have no doubt that I can always find a more effective solution if I am willing to part with more money. But isn't that true of anything you want to buy. Hey, I'd love to buy a Porsche too -- and I probably could if I really had to -- and also buy a teh top processors, and dual SLI cards, and all that, but those things are just not at the top of my priority list in the real world of finite resources. So I do the best I can within my budget. I'm not asking what I should do in a fantasy world where all options are open and money is no object. I am asking a very specific question.

I am getting a lot of good points here, but many of them conflict each other, and all of them have to do with either safety or the effectiveness of cooling. Not to belabor the point too much, but my original questions still remain unaddressed so let me ask them again, 1) is there any reason BESIDES safety to not do it (EMI, etc) IF it turns out to have any effect, and 2) has anyone ever tried it? Yes I can try it myself and find out f it makes any difference to the cooling, but I if I do that won't put me any closer to an answer to my actual question of why I shouldn't want to do it due to non-termperature related reasonsNo offense, but I get the sense that I'm getting lots of guesses, but no one sounds like they really know one way or the other.

I also think people think that a lot of people here are probably presuming psu's have concious airflow designs to them, when I suspect it's more likely that they (like a lot of cases) are just laid out in whatever component arrangment is easiest and cheapest to design. Cos are not going to put a lot of time or extra cost into optimizing that kind of stuff when there is no indication anyone is really paying much attention to it. Just a hunch.

 

[imported_stuck]

My goodness! You ask for advice and you shoot everyone down who gives their two cents!

 

[puddnhead]

Originally posted by: Operandi
It's a bad idea.... with the cover removed the PSU would run hotter, not cooler. The cover/enclosure acts as a guide for the air flow within the PSU, guiding the air over the heatsinks. Without the cover the internal components of the PSU would just get hotter due to lack of air flow.

I guess in response I'll just ask again -- if this is true, then why is Antec designing its brand new top-of-the-line P180 case with airflow that clearly runs outside the PSU enclosure if that is true?

 

[puddnhead]

Originally posted by: stuckMy goodness! You ask for advice and you shoot everyone down who gives their two cents!

With all due respect, I don't get what you mean. Why should those who have carefully read the question I ask and know what they are talking about be bothered if I ask them to clarify/elaborate? Would it really show more appreciation if I silently ignore people instead of showing that I am actively reading their comments by engaging their points and debating them?

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: puddnhead

Originally posted by: Operandi
It's a bad idea.... with the cover removed the PSU would run hotter, not cooler. The cover/enclosure acts as a guide for the air flow within the PSU, guiding the air over the heatsinks. Without the cover the internal components of the PSU would just get hotter due to lack of air flow.

I guess in response I'll just ask again -- if this is true, then why is Antec designing its brand new top-of-the-line P180 case with airflow that clearly runs outside the PSU enclosure if that is true?

Well the P180 is an isolated situation so my statement is true; in a typical ATX configuration the PSU will run hotter. Even in the P180 the PSU's heatsinks won't be getting very good air flow.

As for the P180's air flow; I'm guessing it's setup to compliment Antec's passive Phantom PSU's, just a guess though...

 

[xbassman]

Hey Puddnhead,

Just try it and let us know. It would probably be best if you have a thermistor to measure temps, but your True Power will ramp up fan voltage if it reads temps too high.

My only other concern would be increased EMI, which may really be a non-factor.

 

[S Random]

dont they have fanless PSUs... id think that that would solve this problem

 

[pilgrimicron]

You should never remove the cover of your power supply unless you are very well trained in electronics and understand their makeup. The PS contains capacitors that can hold a charge for days and even a week or more. This charge has enough amps to stop your heart right where you stand. It is very dangerous to remove the cover. It also will not help the cooling much as the case itself direct the cooling air over the components that need the cooling. I think it is a bad idea. IMHO.

 

[MarkM]

I think this may have some benefit, but I'm not sure if it would be enough to be worth it.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Also remember you will have A LOT more EMI without that cover on. I would HIGHLY recommend that you do not do this.

-Kevin

 

[imported_marcosv]

I think permanently removing the power supply enclosure in a production system is idiotic. The chances of electrocuting yourself is not something to underestimate. I don't think the potential gains are worth the risk of messing up one day.

I have an Antec Sonata case. The included power supply is rather anemic looking at newer power hungry computers or systems with lots of drives. If I wanted better performance or something quieter, I'd buy a newer power supply. Newer power supplies when used at less than their maximum rated loads suck up less AC, generate less heat, and are quieter as their fans don't work as hard. You can also find PSUs with 120mm fans. The Antec Neo Power is a nice option.

Another idea would be to switch out the PSU fan.

 

[jonnyGURU]

Originally posted by: S Random
dont they have fanless PSUs... id think that that would solve this problem

It would, but it wouldn't be "cheap."

Originally posted by: puddnhead

Open it up and the heat just pours throughout your case. ...Expensive? Yes. But there's a reason why the solution to a quiet PC isn't to pull all of the fans out of your power supply.

i already addressed why the "heat pouting through the rest of the case" cannot happen.

I never proposed taking out any fans.

That wasn't my point. The fans, the housing... they're all part of the solution. The heatsinks run perpendicular to the fans. The air flows across these sinks and then are exhausted out of a vent or second fan or however the PSU is designed. Take the housing off and the fan doesn't have a direction to blow. The air just sort of turbulates about, if you know what I mean.

 

[puddnhead]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
That wasn't my point. The fans, the housing... they're all part of the solution. The heatsinks run perpendicular to the fans. The air flows across these sinks and then are exhausted out of a vent or second fan or however the PSU is designed. Take the housing off and the fan doesn't have a direction to blow. The air just sort of turbulates about, if you know what I mean.

The Antec Truepower 380s is a single-fan-cooled unit, the fan is mounted flush to the rear of the case, blowing air OUT of the PSU.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: puddnhead

Originally posted by: stuckMy goodness! You ask for advice and you shoot everyone down who gives their two cents!

With all due respect, I don't get what you mean. Why should those who have carefully read the question I ask and know what they are talking about be bothered if I ask them to clarify/elaborate? Would it really show more appreciation if I silently ignore people instead of showing that I am actively reading their comments by engaging their points and debating them?

With all due respect, I think you have your rationale for this already thought out. This being true, why not just go with it and see what happens? I wouldn't do it because it takes the PSU out of spec in terms of cooling itself, and even at best won't manifest greater performance. There it is. And this:

I also think people think that a lot of people here are probably presuming psu's have concious airflow designs to them, when I suspect it's more likely that they (like a lot of cases) are just laid out in whatever component arrangment is easiest and cheapest to design. Cos are not going to put a lot of time or extra cost into optimizing that kind of stuff when there is no indication anyone is really paying much attention to it. Just a hunch.

This trails nicely into what I just said. Forums like this are littered with people who say the same thing of just about any component. They do so mostly as a justification for turning their noses up for no REAL, concrete reason. Again, if you want to do this, just do it. You don't need majority approval, do you?