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"Why Marxism is on the rise again"

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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,495
436
126
We have that now. Everyone is guaranteed a 12th Grade Education and damn near guaranteed a degree with grants, financial aid and student loans.
Other wealthy developed countries do the college part better and arguably the 1-12 grades (or their equivalents better) if you believe the testing studies that show Amercan students placing behind 12-13 other developed countries in reading.

Behind over 20 other developed countries in Math,

And about 20 other countries in science education.

In particular Canada does very noticeably better than us in all three.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf
 
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Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
0
0
Socialism great idea , Until you understand leadership . screw the KING . State owns everthing . NO thanks screw the king
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Less failure of capitalism and more the failure of man's short attention span.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
30,093
3,628
126
What does that even mean? Are you saying people shouldn't protest? Protesting is generally a first world concept, not a third world one.
When we descend and cannot afford social services and lavish retirement accounts, when life's comforts come to an end, it's the choice of the workers to riot or not. If they disrupt supply lines and store shelves go empty...

What I mean is the degree of violent response determines if there's a country left afterwards or not.
Do we accept second world status, or finish it off by burning the rest to the ground?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
6
0
Other wealthy developed countries do the college part better and arguably the 1-12 grades (or their equivalents better) if you believe the testing studies that show Amercan students placing behind 12-13 other developed countries in reading.

Behind over 20 other developed countries in Math,

And about 20 other countries in science education.

In particular Canada does very noticeably better than us in all three.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf
You seem to be making the assertion that Canada and the United States has the same class of students. This seems inaccurate.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,050
6
81
Less failure of capitalism and more the failure of man's short attention span.
So, in other words capitalism is incompatible with the human condition?

Now that we have the 16th century economics out of the way.

Welcome comrade, so where is the middle ground to help people find their own self-interest without intruding on liberty? Go.
 
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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
2
0
Other wealthy developed countries do the college part better and arguably the 1-12 grades (or their equivalents better) if you believe the testing studies that show Amercan students placing behind 12-13 other developed countries in reading.

Behind over 20 other developed countries in Math,

And about 20 other countries in science education.

In particular Canada does very noticeably better than us in all three.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf
You won't get much of an arguement from me there. We have school boards that are more interested in what kids wear than what they learn. The vote themselves raises when everyone else has to take a pay cut. Well that really is a whole other arguement.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,919
20,841
136
Well, wouldn't you agree that at the basis of capitalism is the claim that people may buy and sell what they please without interference?

In other words, wouldn't you say that a very easy summation of the defense of capitalism is, "leave it the F alone"?
ah, yes. You're confusing a market-based economic model with capitalism.

Let me help you out here:

market economy:capitalism :: socialism:communism
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,050
6
81
Well, wouldn't you agree that at the basis of capitalism is the claim that people may buy and sell what they please without interference?
That is naive to reality. Is is the same faith based-logic people use to beat one another over the heads with like religion.

To make this conclusion you would have to make some huge leaps:

1. That the means itself of capital hoarding is moral

2. That through accumulation of capital it creates the most efficient (or moral conclusion for everyone) if anything capitalism stifles competition through fear of overproduction. (it's all about the bottom line quarterly, not a dynamic changing industry -unless forced to)
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
So, in other words capitalism is incompatible with the human condition?

Now that we have the 16th century economics out of the way.

Welcome comrade, so where is the middle ground to help people find their own self-interest without intruding on liberty? Go.
I don't see it that way, I see it incompatible with the way certain people choose to live. Doesn't make it flawed any more or less than anything else, just some asshole always ruins the party.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,050
6
81
I don't see it that way, I see it incompatible with the way certain people choose to live. Doesn't make it flawed any more or less than anything else, just some asshole always ruins the party.
It's always throughout history the "certain other people" who mess it up for everyone.

Thing is those "certain other people" have as much power as you...NONE.

Look at who is crafting the message, it is a divide and conquer message, with the working class getting screwed.

Much easier to look at life as getting screwed by the fellow working classes. The message sells so easily to those who have lost hope.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
2
0
Russia was imperialist beck then, I would agree.

Now on your "The workers are lazy! Money = morality" phoney divide and conquer strawman.

Wait..I thought that the section 8 housing was all a plot by liberals to hold the underclass/minorities down? Why would you recommend workers to go into the maw of the government beast?

Once again your views are based in poorly thought out contradictions laced with sensationalist conspiracy trafficing, -you all dont even know what you think.

You have your whole life been fed history by the establishment, they write what they must for their own self-interests. This is how the world works, but it is not the whole picture. Matter of fact, the whole of history shows funny contradictions like say... Marx and Adam Smith pretty much said the SAME thing.

This is why what in the US is known as "libertarianism" (free market anarchism -corporate class warfare propaganda) is known as NEO-liberalism. It's not Adam Smith, or Marx, its a new fad since the 1950s mostly brought by anti-bolshevik extremism by former soviet citizen Ayn Rand here in the USA.
Oh BS you Commie. You think the enemy of all mankind is the businessman and the savior will be Government rule of all yet history has shown you time and again that is never the case yet you still cling to your hopes that maybe this time it will work. Get a clue, The Government will fail you time and time again.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
An interesting fact:

"The high-profit, tax-avoiding tech industry was built on publicly-funded research.

The technology sector has been more dependent on government research and development than any other industry. The U.S. government provided about half of the funding for basic research in technology and communications well into the 1980s. Even today, federal grants support about 60 percent of research performed at universities.

IBM was founded in 1911, Hewlett-Packard in 1947, Intel in 1968, Microsoft in 1975, Apple and Oracle in 1977, Cisco in 1984. All relied on government and military innovations. The more recently incorporated Google, which started in 1996, grew out of the Defense Department's ARPANET system and the National Science Foundation's Digital Library Initiative.

The combined 2011 federal tax payment for the eight companies was just 10.6%."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31757.htm

So, let's see. Corporations take taxpayer money, develop their private companies, go global and earn enormous profits. Only to park all those profits in tax havens and refuse to pay taxes back to society, the same society which created them in the first place. That is economic freedom? Looks like pure and outrageous theft to me. Especially if we consider that the poorest 20% of Americans pay 17.4% in federal, state, and local taxes.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
6
0
So, let's see. Corporations take taxpayer money, develop their private companies, go global and earn enormous profits. Only to park all those profits in tax havens and refuse to pay taxes back to society, the same society which created them in the first place. That is economic freedom? Looks like pure and outrageous theft to me. Especially if we consider that the poorest 20% of Americans pay 17.4% in federal, state, and local taxes.
You mean until you consider that 2/3 of that 17.4% is Social Security and Medicare. Heaven forbid we expect the poor to pay for their own retirement :rolleyes:
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
6
0
IBM was founded in 1911, Hewlett-Packard in 1947, Intel in 1968, Microsoft in 1975, Apple and Oracle in 1977, Cisco in 1984. All relied on government and military innovations. The more recently incorporated Google, which started in 1996, grew out of the Defense Department's ARPANET system and the National Science Foundation's Digital Library Initiative.

The combined 2011 federal tax payment for the eight companies was just 10.6%."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31757.htm

So, let's see. Corporations take taxpayer money, develop their private companies, go global and earn enormous profits. Only to park all those profits in tax havens and refuse to pay taxes back to society, the same society which created them in the first place.
# from Scottrade
Income(m) Tax(m) %
IBM 21003 5148 24.5%
MSFT 28071 4921 17.5
HPQ 8982 1908 21.2
ORCL 12962 2981 23.0

So where exactly is the 10.6% coming from.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,369
3,490
126
Not sure that Marxism is on the rise as much as people are beginning to lose faith in "Capitalism". Clearly prominent Capitalists have jumped the shark, as it were. 2008 was the result of their failure.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Marxism is on the rise? Where?
Basically among people who do not understand economics, the economic lessons taught by history or how capitalism functions and/or misattribute the measures taken by governments along with the resulting consequences to capitalism and free markets.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
You can keep your economic freedom. Ill take real freedom that doesnt require me to be a slave to money as if it is the only driving force in the world.
Nothing could be further from freedom then forgoing your ability to make personal economic decisions for yourself and placing this ability into the hands of a agent of government. Free market capitalism allows for individual freedom by allowing people to make their own decisions based on their needs without having to request or gain the approval of some bureaucratic governmental agency and its apathetic detached agents.
 
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Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
Nothing could be further from freedom then forgoing your ability to make personal economic decisions for yourself into the hands of a agent of government. Free market capitalism allows for individual freedom by allowing people to make their own decisions based on their needs without having to request or gain the approval of some bureaucratic governmental agency and its apathetic detached agents.
Good lord! Straight from the textbook.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,413
9
0
Capitalism is economic freedom. If people want an alternative to that, I'm against them.
That is complete BS.

How can we possibly have economic freedom when we have Facism?

I guess one can say Capitalism is TOO much economic freedom cause now we have Corps/Business (call it an entity) that controls and is in power of our government/the puppets.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
It's always throughout history the "certain other people" who mess it up for everyone.

Thing is those "certain other people" have as much power as you...NONE.

Look at who is crafting the message, it is a divide and conquer message, with the working class getting screwed.

Much easier to look at life as getting screwed by the fellow working classes. The message sells so easily to those who have lost hope.
So you don't believe in evolution? Because I do and I believe we will evolve mentally and physically to cope with more modern styles of life. Just because it's not your life time, wah. Get over it.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,050
6
81
So you don't believe in evolution? Because I do and I believe we will evolve mentally and physically to cope with more modern styles of life. Just because it's not your life time, wah. Get over it.
Apathy is a form of mental laziness, a show of a lack of personal responsibility and critical thinking skills. This is a sad statement from a broken animal who feels he has no power. Not a man.

Isn't "economic freedom" great!

Now back to the barn slave. Massa wants you rested up to work.
 

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