Why Kerry is more stubborn that Bush...

TBone77

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Oct 21, 2004
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This was originally going to be a reply in this thread, but after I got off-topic, I didn't feel that would be appropriate.

Originally posted by: Engineer
So she said that she was wrong. Very noble and very quickly, I might add. Something Bush can't seem to do....

Have I missed an apology from John Kerry regarding his numerous treasonous activities while still active in the military? Frankly, had Kerry's actions been pursued in accordance with the law, he wouldn't even be eligible for the Presidency.

Anyway... back on topic:

Has he retracted his objections to the first Gulf War (you know, the FIRST time he said wrong war, wrong time, wrong place)? How about to Reagan's MDS? These are the first examples of "being wrong" that spring to mind when I think of John Kerry. There are many more for which there are no apologies and no retractions. The only thing I can recall John Kerry remotely apologizing for is claiming to be in Cambodia Christmas Eve when he really wasn't, and anyone who doesn't believe the only reason he apologized for that was because there was cold, hard, irrefutable evidence to the contrary, is in severe denial or is just flat-out lying to themselves. IIRC, John Kerry even excused that with "I misspoke".

John Kerry has a pattern: when forced to admit a mistake, pick a smoke screen:

1. I misspoke.
2. I was misunderstood.
3. I slightly misspoke and was therefore slightly misunderstood.

Bush may not be very good at admitting mistakes, but John Kerry sure as hell isn't the solution to the problem of a stubborn president. Frankly, I'll take the President's flavor of stubbornness over Mr. Kerry's.

You see, some people routinely demand an apology from the President regarding the Iraq war, but what they fail to understand is what kind of message that would send to the people of Iraq, this country, soldiers' families, and of course - terrorists. If you think it would be strictly interpreted as genuine humility on America's part, you're dangerously naive.

Besides, all in all, the decision to go to Iraq was not an incorrect one:

It's funny how quickly people forget that Bush was not alone in this country when he felt Saddam should be removed from power. I'll spare you the direct quotes from folks such as John Kerry, John Edwards, and Ted Kennedy. We're all quite aware (though some remain in a state of denial) that using force was very much a united decision and that these men very specifically supported it (after all, it was POPULAR at the time!). Before you jump me with as a last resort, I'll remind you that Bush DID use it as a last resort, and he DID enlist the impotent UN to handle the situation. The fact is, the UN passed a resolution that stated This is your last chance. Comply or you will be dealt with through force. Bush is now lambasted by countries such as France, Germany, and Russia (who all had a documented significant financial stake in the former regime through the corrupt OFF program and illegal arms deals) as well as the American left for merely following through. Let's also not forget that the President had Mr. Kerry's and Mr. Edwards' support as he chose to go to war. You cannot ignore the simple fact that Kerry and Edwards both supported the President's decision until they saw political tides changing as Dean pulled ahead. To be honest, Edwards had my support up to that point. Then I saw what he was really about. The timing of that pretty much negates the whole as a last resort defense. They still supported Bush 100% when he said "time to use the last resort". Now, Kerry and Edwards have both stated that you must be willing to adjust to a dynamic environment. Please. The only dynamic they adjusted to was the public opinion of the left's core. That statement is such an obvious excuse for "we were losing, so we changed our beliefs". In 1998, these "gentlemen", along with other members (both liberal and conservative) of Congress, specifically stated that Saddam Hussein should be removed from power. Oops... there goes the whole "Bush lied to us so we shouldn't have done it" argument... unless of course you are willing to hold those individuals just as accountable. You can't have it both ways, folks. Were there intelligence mistakes? Of course there were. But two administrations and Congress fell victim to them. Singling Bush out for this is absolutely absurd and a demonstration of partisan politics at their finest.

I'll make a bold statement: it doesn't matter that they haven't found WMD, at least not in terms of hindsight evaluations and Monday morning quarterbacking. The UN constructed and passed what was supposed to be a final resolution over a decade after Saddam signed a treaty stating he would comply with weapons inspections and acknowledge no-fly zones. During that time, he shot at our planes flying in the no-fly zone, he funded and nutured a nuclear program, and was extremely obstructive when it came to the inspections he agreed to comply with. The far left would have you believe that it's Bush's fault for pushing us into war. Why the hell can't they see fit to blame the man responsible for reneging on every agreement he made to save his hide in the first Gulf War? Gee, I personally hold Saddam Hussein accountable for the war. He had all the power in the world to avoid it.

THE MISTAKE BUSH MADE IN THIS WAR WAS NOT THE FACT THAT WE WENT TO WAR, BUT RATHER NOT HAVING AN EXIT STRATEGY. HE SHOULD APOLOGIZE FOR IT AFTER THE BULK OF OUR TROOPS ARE OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

It's just like when the left tried to blame Bush for 9/11. Gee, you wouldn't want to hold accountable the man that virtually ignored and dismissed the FIRST bombing of the WTC, along with the bombings of a naval vessel and two US embassies. This man's greatest accomplishments in the White House include the largest tax hike in the history of man and an extramarital hummer in the oval office. He practically ignored terrorism from the first day of his term to the last (well, you can't really say he TOTALLY ignored it... he did pardon a number of convicted Cuban terrorists in the last weeks of his Presidency, but that's for another debate I suppose). Granted, Bush didn't directly deal with terrorism until 9/11, but again: singling Bush out like this is absurd. I have never once heard a liberal hold Clinton accountable for his jaw-dropping mistakes with regard to terrorism... but if a gun gets through an airport terminal, we want Bush's resignation. One of the greatest differentiating factors between Bush and Clinton with regard to terrorism is that Clinton, when he could be bothered to deal with it, would go after an individual here and there. The Bush administration was spot-on when they said that the states that sponsored the individuals also needed to be dealt with. That changed the face of how the US dealt with terrorism.

I'm sure I'll be labeled a necon by some of you. It seems to be the posh thing to do when someone comes along with an opposing opinion. But know that I have my issues with Bush and the Republican Party. I've written my core beliefs down before just so I could see precisely where I stand with respect to each party. By tally, I'm actually a liberal (by 4 issues, to be exact). For instance, I'm an advocate of strict gun control and I very much oppose the Death Penalty. However, I'm also Pro Life. I just can't seem to jump on board with a party who thinks terrorists, serial killers, and rapists deserve more government protection than the heart beating within a conceived child. Each party has their hypocrisies, but that one takes the cake and it's one I've never been able to swallow. Most of the other issues with each party I can deal with.

Regarding John Kerry specifically, aside from his acts of treason, my biggest issue with him is this:

John Kerry: "I demand full disclosure of George Bush's military records!"

Okay. Now can we see yours?

John Kerry: "HALLIBURTON!"

That's him and his hypocrisy in a nutshell. I must say, I am more curious about what is collecting dust in Kerry's military past (like what his true discharge status was before he was Honorably Discharged in 2001 - decades after he actually left the military) than I am about anything else in this election.

Whatever it is, John Kerry is scared to death of it.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
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The fact is, the UN passed a resolution that stated This is your last chance. Comply or you will be dealt with through force.

In what way were they not in compliance? They had no WMDs. Also, the text of the resolution did not explicitly endorse the use of force. It has been argued on this forum that they didn't even use the usual UN euphamism for force. I'll try to find that post.

All in all, none of Kerry's mistakes have killed over 10 000 people.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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You cannot ignore the simple fact that Kerry and Edwards both supported the President's decision until they saw political tides changing as Dean pulled ahead.
Wrong. They supported authorizing force as a bargaining chip. I don't think anyone expected him to warmonger so shamelessly without trying to give the inspectors a fair chance either.
 

Todd33

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Oct 16, 2003
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Have I missed an apology from John Kerry regarding his numerous treasonous activities while still active in the military?

I had to stop there, that's the goto garbage of the right wing zealots who use anything to attack.
 

Gravity

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2003
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Wasnt' the un very involved in the oil for food scandal? Anan'S son?

Perhaps the un wanted to drag out the process so coifee's son could get more money from france and germany?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: Todd33
Have I missed an apology from John Kerry regarding his numerous treasonous activities while still active in the military?

I had to stop there, that's the goto garbage of the right wing zealots who use anything to attack.


Hehe. Was his first post a troll too?
 

TBone77

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Oct 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: Todd33
Have I missed an apology from John Kerry regarding his numerous treasonous activities while still active in the military?

I had to stop there, that's the goto garbage of the right wing zealots who use anything to attack.

1. I'm a liberal, not a right-wing zealot. I just happen to not like John Kerry.
2. The past of John Kerry that I described is fact. It is documented. He broke military law and the manner in which he did it constitutes treason by the letter of that law. The Constitution forbids a person guilty of treason to run for the Presidency.

If you have a problem with this, take it up with the folks who wrote it, not the folks who refer to it.
 

TBone77

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Oct 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Todd33
Have I missed an apology from John Kerry regarding his numerous treasonous activities while still active in the military?

I had to stop there, that's the goto garbage of the right wing zealots who use anything to attack.


Hehe. Was his first post a troll too?


I suppose your post count started at 10?

I've been reading this forum for weeks and decided to step in. Pardon me for having a "first post".

My bad.

Here's an idea: let's discuss politics based on the merits of our arguments rather than our post counts.

Otherwise it just looks desperate.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: TBone77

Here's an idea: let's discuss politics based on the merits of our arguments rather than our post counts.

That's why I posted this:

They supported authorizing force as a bargaining chip. I don't think anyone expected him to warmonger so shamelessly without trying to give the inspectors a fair chance either.



 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: TBone77
Originally posted by: Todd33
Have I missed an apology from John Kerry regarding his numerous treasonous activities while still active in the military?

I had to stop there, that's the goto garbage of the right wing zealots who use anything to attack.

1. I'm a liberal, not a right-wing zealot. I just happen to not like John Kerry.
2. The past of John Kerry that I described is fact. It is documented. He broke military law and the manner in which he did it constitutes treason by the letter of that law. The Constitution forbids a person guilty of treason to run for the Presidency.

If you have a problem with this, take it up with the folks who wrote it, not the folks who refer to it.

And I'm a neocon conservative who doesn't like Bush, uh huh.

Treason huh? You hang out with Ann Coulter much?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: TBone77
Originally posted by: Todd33
Have I missed an apology from John Kerry regarding his numerous treasonous activities while still active in the military?

I had to stop there, that's the goto garbage of the right wing zealots who use anything to attack.

1. I'm a liberal, not a right-wing zealot. I just happen to not like John Kerry.
2. The past of John Kerry that I described is fact. It is documented. He broke military law and the manner in which he did it constitutes treason by the letter of that law. The Constitution forbids a person guilty of treason to run for the Presidency.

If you have a problem with this, take it up with the folks who wrote it, not the folks who refer to it.
You are full of sh!t. He did not commit treasonous acts and I can assure that if he had the Nixon Admin istration would have done all they could to make sure he was prosecuted to the full extent of the law because the Nixon Administration did not hold back going after anybody whom it considered an enemy of that Administration.

 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
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Ya, I was going to post the same. If had done anything illegal, Nixon would have hung him up to dry. Did you not here the Nixon tapes about Kerry from the Oval office? He was after this guy big time, he had people digging and following him. The best they came up with was that Kerry stayed at a friends house while the vets were camped out on the lawn in DC (during the week long protest). Kerry b!tch slapped him and said he went there to write his speech and shower and did sleep on the lawn with hundreds of witnesses.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: TBone77
Originally posted by: Todd33
Have I missed an apology from John Kerry regarding his numerous treasonous activities while still active in the military?

I had to stop there, that's the goto garbage of the right wing zealots who use anything to attack.

1. I'm a liberal, not a right-wing zealot. I just happen to not like John Kerry.
2. The past of John Kerry that I described is fact. It is documented. He broke military law and the manner in which he did it constitutes treason by the letter of that law. The Constitution forbids a person guilty of treason to run for the Presidency.

If you have a problem with this, take it up with the folks who wrote it, not the folks who refer to it.

Obviously not everyone would agree with you. And I find it funny that you claim to be a liberal while your sig:
Liberals LOVE free speech... until it's someone else's turn to talk.

- Common Observation

...insults liberals. Face it, you come off like Karl Rove in disguise. You have NOTHING more than contentless talking points. I, for one, totally reject the idea that an apology for the way in which this war was conducted would hurt people IF it was coupled with a quick exit strategy. You start from a faulty premise that no one other than your side supports, so why should I read any farther into your neo-conish babbling?
 

TBone77

Banned
Oct 21, 2004
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It's funny... I wrote a miniture novel, and all you guys can focus on is the treason.

You know, I manage very civil discussions about these topics in real life quite easily. We can talk about this civilly and respectfully without telling one another that we're full of sh1t and the like.

Afterall, we're a people of tolerance and diversity, right? ;)
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: TBone77
It's funny... I wrote a miniture novel, and all you guys can focus on is the treason.

You know, I manage very civil discussions about these topics in real life quite easily. We can talk about this civilly and respectfully without telling one another that we're full of sh1t and the like.

Afterall, we're a people of tolerance and diversity, right? ;)


People have addressed the issues (and granted, mocked you as well). You can criticize the mocking but you should fess up that you are ignoring the actual responses people made.
 

TBone77

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Oct 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: Rainsford
...insults liberals. Face it, you come off like Karl Rove in disguise.

I am a liberal by definition. Break down where I stand on the issues, I am a liberal by a landslide. I just wish I could find a liberal that I could back.

It's not a difficult concept. If some of you would take a deep breath, relax, and quit being so fanatical when you respond, we could explain our situations to each other.

Seriously - some of ought to be concerned about your bloodpressure. Contrary to what we see in the media and between candidates, politics doesn't have to be so aggressive. We all have very common goals; debating how to arrive there doesn't need to be so hostile.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: TBone77
It's funny... I wrote a miniture novel, and all you guys can focus on is the treason.
Because it was a bold face lie!
You know, I manage very civil discussions about these topics in real life quite easily. We can talk about this civilly and respectfully without telling one another that we're full of sh1t and the like.

Afterall, we're a people of tolerance and diversity, right? ;)
Nice try troll, if you wanted a civil discussion then you wouldn't have started your thread with a lie.

 

TBone77

Banned
Oct 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
You can criticize the mocking but you should fess up that you are ignoring the actual responses people made.

You are correct, I am ignoring the responses to the treason. That's simply because I recognize that I have my feelings on the matter and each of you has yours. I consider John Kerry guilty of treason, others do not. We could spend 3 pages arguing that one point and get nowhere, or we can move on to the other topics I brought up. Specifically, the circumstances under which we went to war, who supported it, and when.

I wanted to like John Kerry. Believe me. Bush is not my ideal President. But I quickly realized how his views were so strongly based in political tides. I lost interest in him at that point.

I know some of you could like to hang me for it, but that's what affected my opinion the most.

 

TBone77

Banned
Oct 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: Red DawnNice try troll, if you wanted a civil discussion then you wouldn't have started your thread with a lie.

Wow... again with the namecalling. It's not a lie. It's what I believe, just like you don't think your beliefs are lies.

Now chill the hell out.

 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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They supported authorizing force as a bargaining chip. I don't think anyone expected him to warmonger so shamelessly without trying to give the inspectors a fair chance either. (This is what I said of substance in response to your "novel." This is the third itme I've posted it. It has nothing to do with treason. And if you don't want to discuss treason don't post about it).
 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
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why dont you just admit you're one of the resident board neothugs with a new registered nickname.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
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No, he's a liberal! Can't you tell by his attack on them in the sig?

It's like the tastychicken guy, when he popped up he kept telling everyone how liberal he was, now he is just another Rip that takes a 100% right wing stance.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: Todd33
It's like the tastychicken guy, when he popped up he kept telling everyone how liberal he was, now he is just another Rip that takes a 100% right wing stance.

:laugh:

He actually claimed he was a lib in a post the other day... meanwhile his sig was a pure liberal bash and every post he's ever made has been from a conservative perspective. :roll:
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Todd33
It's like the tastychicken guy, when he popped up he kept telling everyone how liberal he was, now he is just another Rip that takes a 100% right wing stance.

:laugh:

He actually claimed he was a lib in a post the other day... meanwhile his sig was a pure liberal bash and every post he's ever made has been from a conservative perspective. :roll:
Well it's not like you guys are any more civil than the Conservatives.
 

TBone77

Banned
Oct 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
I don't think anyone expected him to warmonger so shamelessly without trying to give the inspectors a fair chance either.


A fair chance? How many more decades would YOU give Saddam Hussein to follow the rules? You have no addressed the fact that Kerry supported the war right up to the point where Dean (who was anti-war from the start) gained traction. That would imply that Kerry himself did not view it as a bargaining chip.

To you others: are you guys actually even CAPABLE of speaking in a civil manner, or have you spent your entire lives in cyberstace, where there's virtually no accountability to how you deal with other people?