Why It’s (nearly)Impossible to Indict a Cop

[xBiffx]

That is great. Can citizens get that same treatment? If a citizen is put into a tense situation and kill somebody. Do they get that same benefit of the doubt? Why not? They are not trained to handle tense situations. So why does a cop who is trained for these situations have less burden to do the right thing?

What tense situation training is this you speak of? AFAIK cops are given skills and tactics to handle situations with their training, none of which work on the mental/emotional aspect of dealing with situations.

What one person considers tense, another might consider tame. There is no training for that that I know of other than experience.

 

[Genx87]

What tense situation training is this you speak of?

Are cops not trained to do their job?

 

[xBiffx]

Are cops not trained to do their job?

Doing their job isn't the same as dealing with tense situations. One might be inclusive of the other but that's not the same thing.

Does using a printer at your job mean that you are an expert in printer repair? Does writing code all day mean that you are proficient in photoshop or any form of software? Does being a people manager mean that you are an expert with dealing with people?

Again, one could be a subset of the other but that doesn't make them the same. Giving cops skills to deal with certain threats doesn't mean they are mentally prepared to deal with those threats. It just means that they have been shown how they might handle those situations pragmatically. The only way anyone handles a tense situation better than the next is through experience having been it those types of situations before.

 

[Genx87]

Doing their job isn't the same as dealing with tense situations. One might be inclusive of the other but that's not the same thing.

Does using a printer at your job mean that you are an expert in printer repair? Does writing code all day mean that you are proficient in photoshop or any form of software? Does being a people manager mean that you are an expert with dealing with people?

Again, one could be a subset of the other but that doesn't make them the same. Giving cops skills to deal with certain threats doesn't mean they are mentally prepared to deal with those threats. It just means that they have been shown how they might handle those situations pragmatically. The only way anyone handles a tense situation better than the next is through experience having been it those types of situations before.

Cops entire job deals with tense situations. They are dealing with people they dont know and who dont want to talk with them. If there is a lack of training for dealing with a tense situation it should be addressed.

But lets put it this way. A cop may not be fully prepared nor trained for every situation. But they are certainly more trained than an avg citizen and this is their job. So why are we holding citizens to a higher standard?

 

[brianmanahan]

why its nearly possible to comprehend a JEDIYoda thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2411254

 

[xBiffx]

Cops entire job deals with tense situations. They are dealing with people they dont know and who dont want to talk with them. If there is a lack of training for dealing with a tense situation it should be addressed.

But lets put it this way. A cop may not be fully prepared nor trained for every situation. But they are certainly more trained than an avg citizen and this is their job. So why are we holding citizens to a higher standard?

Way to completely not answer my question.

Also, your sentiment that a cops entire job deals with tense situations is completely false. Much of a cops job is completely boring as hell in that they spend a lot of the time driving/walking a beat and filling out reports.

Cops certainly are more trained than the average citizen, that doesn't mean that they are able to deal with tense situations better. I'd argue that taxi cab drivers in major cities or airline pilots are fairly good and even better than most cops at dealing with tense situations but if you ask one, they'd probably laugh at that. Again, you failed to answer my question and in doing so you having recognized the error of your line of thinking. Basically, training ≠experience.

 

[cabri]

That is great. Can citizens get that same treatment? If a citizen is put into a tense situation and kill somebody. Do they get that same benefit of the doubt? Why not? They are not trained to handle tense situations. So why does a cop who is trained for these situations have less burden to do the right thing?

I am sure that if a civilians is placed in such a situation involuntarily against law enforcement and/or military; such may be considered.

The difference is that a civilians are not asked to intervene; they choose to do so.

Or they choose to escalate the situation (accidentally or on purpose).

Cops entire job deals with tense situations. They are dealing with people they dont know and who dont want to talk with them. If there is a lack of training for dealing with a tense situation it should be addressed.

But lets put it this way. A cop may not be fully prepared nor trained for every situation. But they are certainly more trained than an avg citizen and this is their job. So why are we holding citizens to a higher standard?

Many cops go an entire career without having to draw their weapon, let alone fire it.

 

[Genx87]

Way to completely not answer my question.

Also, your sentiment that a cops entire job deals with tense situations is completely false. Much of a cops job is completely boring as hell in that they spend a lot of the time driving/walking a beat and filling out reports.

Cops certainly are more trained than the average citizen, that doesn't mean that they are able to deal with tense situations better. I'd argue that taxi cab drivers in major cities or airline pilots are fairly good and even better than most cops at dealing with tense situations but if you ask one, they'd probably laugh at that. Again, you failed to answer my question and in doing so you having recognized the error of your line of thinking. Basically, training ≠experience.

What was your question? I took the printer and software coder questions as rhetorical. But if you want me to answer them here ya go.

If somebody knows about printers, is a software coder, or is a people manager. They certainly have more training than people within the organization that dont. Those people should be held to a higher standard than those who dont have those skill sets.

At this point I am not even arguing cops should be held to a higher standard. I'd settle for them being held to the same standard. What you are arguing is a cop should be held to a lower standard than an avg joe off the street when it comes to tense situations. If you are fine with that. I'd have to ask why?

 

[xBiffx]

What was your question? I took the printer and software coder questions as rhetorical. But if you want me to answer them here ya go.

If somebody knows about printers, is a software coder, or is a people manager. They certainly have more training than people within the organization that dont. Those people should be held to a higher standard than those who dont have those skill sets.

At this point I am not even arguing cops should be held to a higher standard. I'd settle for them being held to the same standard. What you are arguing is a cop should be held to a lower standard than an avg joe off the street when it comes to tense situations. If you are fine with that. I'd have to ask why?

What training do cops specifically get to deal with tense situations? That is how are they trained to deal with the tenseness of a situation and not the actual situation? For example, a cop responds to an active shooter. They are trained on how to neutralize that type of threat, i.e. what tactics to deploy and actions to take. They aren't shown how to feel or react mentally or emotionally. That is an individual thing. Only experience dealing with that kind of situation dictates those types of reactions, not training.

No, those people shouldn't be held to a higher standard. Just because someone knows how to code doesn't automatically mean they are an expert at all software. Actually its usually the opposite.

I am surely not arguing for a lower standard. I'm arguing for the same standard for cops as other citizens in that a cop knows no more how to deal with the tenseness of a situation better than you, me, or anyone else unless they are used to it. There is no training that makes a cop (or anyone) used to tenseness other than experience being in that situation. You are trying to hold them to a higher standard even though you claim otherwise.

 

[Genx87]

I am sure that if a civilians is placed in such a situation involuntarily against law enforcement and/or military; such may be considered.

The difference is that a civilians are not asked to intervene; they choose to do so.

Or they choose to escalate the situation (accidentally or on purpose).

Eh if an avg joe puts a choke hold on somebody or tells somebody to get off the street. And both of those situations escalate into a death of somebody. Those avg joes will end up on trial.

Many cops go an entire career without having to draw their weapon, let alone fire it.

That is great. Then how does the indictment process or this discussion apply to them?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Last I checked all it takes to indict a police officer is a probable cause affidavit approved by a judge/magistrate or a "True bill" decision by a grand jury.

 

[xBiffx]

Eh if an avg joe puts a choke hold on somebody or tells somebody to get off the street. And both of those situations escalate into a death of somebody. Those avg joes will end up on trial.

What reason would the average Joe have to do such things? If they had cause to take those actions, the outcome wouldn't be that much different.

That is great. Then how does the indictment process or this discussion apply to them?

Don't spout off statements about the entirety of a cops' jobs and then get defensive when someone talks about the majority of cops' jobs.

 

[Moonbeam]

How can anyone govern themselves when the benefit is to you? Look at our government. Do you think they can properly govern themselves? We need a raise? Who the hell wouldn't vote for their own financial gains?

Me, I always vote for what I think benefits the most people and since I have everything I need, it's never me. If you don't do what you feel is right you augment the feeling you're worthless which is why you vote selfishly in the first place, if you do. Of course, I am using the term 'self interest' as most people do, that is incorrectly. The way I do it is real self interest. There is nothing more valuable in the world than self respect.

 

[Triumph]

What about all the times when excessive force suits get settled out of court? It turns out that massive payouts don’t deter police misconduct for one straightforward reason: neither individual officers nor police departments are responsible for coughing up the cash. The union covers the officer’s lawyer, and research from Joanna Schwartz of UCLA Law School found that governments, not individual officers, paid out 99.98 percent of the damages. Settlements and damages aren’t paid by the police department, whose budget will waltz by untouched, but typically out of the general municipal budget.

This is why I promote a malpractice insurance type of arrangement between cops and their union, so that they are directly, monetarily responsible for paying for damages that they incur during the conduction of their duties. NOT the taxpayer.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

This is why I promote a malpractice insurance type of arrangement between cops and their union, so that they are directly, monetarily responsible for paying for damages that they incur during the conduction of their duties. NOT the taxpayer.

Which will end up being part of the employment package paid by the taxpayers as police salaries are not that high.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Police_Officer/Salary

A Police Officer earns an average salary of $47,643 per year. XAll compensation data shown are gross, national 10th to 90th percentile ranges. Pay can vary greatly by location.

 

[Vic]

And, as usual, the same crowd that claims to hate government (and especially government employee unions) jumps in to defend the police from any misdeed with the usual specious arguments (like "tense situations").
Seriously, you cannot fix hypocritical stupid.

 

[xBiffx]

And, as usual, the same crowd that claims to hate government (and especially government employee unions) jumps in to defend the police from any misdeed with the usual specious arguments (like "tense situations").
Seriously, you cannot fix hypocritical stupid.

And, as usual, the same crowd that claims government is the answer (especially when its needed to make new laws) jumps in to persecute those who are tasked with carrying out the government's biding in enforcing those laws.

Seriously, you cannot fix hypocritical stupid.

 

[Vic]

Which will end up being part of the employment package paid by the taxpayers as police salaries are not that high.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Police_Officer/Salary

Most police officers receive substantial compensation in addition to their salaries, like regular overtime.

I don't know and don't care what you do for a living, but most people today work in an environment where quality expectations are very high. Expecting a similar high quality of service from our government employees, which includes the police, is not unreasonable.

 

[Vic]

And, as usual, the same crowd that claims government is the answer (especially when its needed to make new laws) jumps in to persecute those who are tasked with carrying out the government's biding in enforcing those laws.

Seriously, you cannot fix hypocritical stupid.

Wow, that was so original. Bad news for you, I have NEVER claimed that government is the answer.

Nor do I believe that the police should be persecuted. What I do believe is that they, like every other profession, should be held professionally accountable.

Is this too difficult for you to understand?

 

[Triumph]

Which will end up being part of the employment package paid by the taxpayers as police salaries are not that high.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Police_Officer/Salary

You could argue that, but if it is a different rate for each officer, depending on the type of duty they have, their years of experience, and the number of complaints against them, AND you make them cut a check directly rather than the union paying it, it would probably work.

 

[Genx87]

What reason would the average Joe have to do such things? If they had cause to take those actions, the outcome wouldn't be that much different.

What does it matter if an avg joe has to do such a thing? The action lead to the death of somebody. And I disagree the outcome wouldn't be much different. If an avg joe goes into a park and some kid brandishes a fake gun and avg joe kills him, there is little chance will avg joe not be on trial.

Don't spout off statements about the entirety of a cops' jobs and then get defensive when someone talks about the majority of cops' jobs.

I'm not defensive. It is an honest question. We are talking about cops that have taken action often times using a firearm that ended in the death of somebody. What does a cop that has never used their firearm have to do with the discussion?

 

[xBiffx]

Wow, that was so original. Bad news for you, I have NEVER claimed that government is the answer.

Nor do I believe that the police should be persecuted. What I do believe is that they, like every other profession, should be held professionally accountable.

Is this too difficult for you to understand?

About as difficult as it is for you to understand that people who don't like the government or prefer other solutions doesn't mean that they hate government.

 

[xBiffx]

What does it matter if an avg joe has to do such a thing? The action lead to the death of somebody. And I disagree the outcome wouldn't be much different. If an avg joe goes into a park and some kid brandishes a fake gun and avg joe kills him, there is little chance will avg joe not be on trial.

It matters because a cop isn't average joe. A cop is there to enforce law. He therefore has cause to take certain actions to do so. If the average joe has a reason, such as defending himself, then he as cause to take certain actions. You are trying to compare average joe without cause to police who do have it and expecting them to act the same.

I'm not defensive. It is an honest question. We are talking about cops that have taken action often times using a firearm that ended in the death of somebody. What does a cop that has never used their firearm have to do with the discussion?

Again, why make blanket statements and then want specificity?

 

[Thebobo]

That is great. Can citizens get that same treatment? If a citizen is put into a tense situation and kill somebody. Do they get that same benefit of the doubt? Why not? They are not trained to handle tense situations. So why does a cop who is trained for these situations have less burden to do the right thing?

yea I want a grand jury on this Speeding ticket I got.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Most police officers receive substantial compensation in addition to their salaries, like regular overtime.

I don't know and don't care what you do for a living, but most people today work in an environment where quality expectations are very high. Expecting a similar high quality of service from our government employees, which includes the police, is not unreasonable.

What the hell are you blathering on about? Go back and look at what I was replying to and not what you think the subject was about.