Why isn't there an Android competitor to the iPod (Touch)?

[Deeko]

I don't think the manufacturers care whether you think they should or shouldn't sell it. They only care about what will maximize their profits, so even though they have an option to sell a PMP, they would rather have more profit.

I gave my reasons earlier in the thread - Android as a platform is not very strong as a media player, the PMP market is very difficult to break into thanks to Apple's mindshare, and the lack of a content delivery service.

I was merely refuting the idea that the reason they don't do it is because they have lower profit margins than smartphones.

Again repeating myself. Its positively foolish to think they aren't selling PMPs because they have a lower profit margin than cell phones. HTC and co don't make PMPs likely for the reasons I listed above. Conversely, PMP manufacturers don't use Android for the other reasons I listed earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure why you're harping on this so much. Companies like making money. If it were reasonable for HTC to release a PMP, or for Sony to release an Android PMP, they would. The fact that its a lower profit margin than smartphones is not really relevant, considering they could do both. Believe it or not, large, international corporations are capable of producing & selling more than one thing.

 

[Sloper]

depends on how you look at it. iOS was developed to support the touch and be a music player. winmo and android were developed to control phones and be mobile computing devices. adding pmp capability is already done, but it is not their main focus. i use the player on my phone on occasion, as well as the fm radio. but for the most part, if im at work i rely on my phone for calling customers and tech support, which is hampered if my battery is used listening to music. i carry my zuneHD for that purpose, just out of fear i wont have my phone available if needed. theres been many times my brother has asked to use my phone because he let the kids play games and listen to music on his iphone and his battery was dead.

I agree with your reasoning but the end result is that iOS now has a much wider audience that the app developers can tap into.

If Google wants to create a serious competing platform, they're shooting themselves in the foot by not bringing the OS to all mobile devices, not just phones.

 

[theeedude]

Again repeating myself. Its positively foolish to think they aren't selling PMPs because they have a lower profit margin than cell phones. HTC and co don't make PMPs likely for the reasons I listed above. Conversely, PMP manufacturers don't use Android for the other reasons I listed earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure why you're harping on this so much. Companies like making money. If it were reasonable for HTC to release a PMP, or for Sony to release an Android PMP, they would. The fact that its a lower profit margin than smartphones is not really relevant, considering they could do both. Believe it or not, large, international corporations are capable of producing & selling more than one thing.

I am not going to try to dissuade you anymore, only to tell you that these companies have seen the iPod touch, and they have seen Android, and they decided that making an Android iPod touch was not a good move for their business. I also would like to get a device like this that simply has internet, with Flash, Android apps, and some media player functions, but if I was in their shoes, I probably would also rather make a smartphone or a tablet that sells for hundreds more for not much more effort. I think once they are done filling the insatiable demand for smartphones and tablets, they may see what else is ripe for the picking.
There is a more fundamental issue that Apple sells both the device and runs the music store, so does Microsoft, so they can afford to take lower profit on the device and offset it with media sales. But for Android, the device manufacturer would be making the device, while google would be running the music store, so unless Google has some system to kick profits back to manufacturers, there is not as much incentive for them to make these PMPs.

 

[TheStu]

I am not going to try to dissuade you anymore, only to tell you that these companies have seen the iPod touch, and they have seen Android, and they decided that making an Android iPod touch was not a good move for their business. I also would like to get a device like this that simply has internet, with Flash, Android apps, and some media player functions, but if I was in their shoes, I probably would also rather make a smartphone or a tablet that sells for hundreds more for not much more effort. I think once they are done filling the insatiable demand for smartphones and tablets, they may see what else is ripe for the picking.
There is a more fundamental issue that Apple sells both the device and runs the music store, so does Microsoft, so they can afford to take lower profit on the device and offset it with media sales. But for Android, the device manufacturer would be making the device, while google would be running the music store, so unless Google has some system to kick profits back to manufacturers, there is not as much incentive for them to make these PMPs.

You also seem to be assuming that it would have to be Motorola or HTC or Smasung to put out the iPod Touch competitor. What about Sandisk? Or Creative? Or Archos (who actually does have an Android powered PMP, so that's one). Any of those companies, that don't also make $500 phones with ridiculous profit margins could do it. And since they have experience with second rate music UIs, they would feel right at home with Android (sorry, couldn't resist).

They could embrace the open nature of the OS, strip out everything they don't need, but leave in the core functionality, polish the crap out of the player, add in additional codec support and have the ultimate PMP for the 'I hate Apple and everything they stand for' crowd.

 

[Deeko]

You also seem to be assuming that it would have to be Motorola or HTC or Smasung to put out the iPod Touch competitor. What about Sandisk? Or Creative? Or Archos (who actually does have an Android powered PMP, so that's one). Any of those companies, that don't also make $500 phones with ridiculous profit margins could do it. And since they have experience with second rate music UIs, they would feel right at home with Android (sorry, couldn't resist).

They could embrace the open nature of the OS, strip out everything they don't need, but leave in the core functionality, polish the crap out of the player, add in additional codec support and have the ultimate PMP for the 'I hate Apple and everything they stand for' crowd.

Or Sony - they make PMPs as well as Android smartphones. Obviously there's a reason they don't, and I doubt its that PMPs have low profit margins.

 

[theeedude]

You also seem to be assuming that it would have to be Motorola or HTC or Smasung to put out the iPod Touch competitor. What about Sandisk? Or Creative? Or Archos (who actually does have an Android powered PMP, so that's one). Any of those companies, that don't also make $500 phones with ridiculous profit margins could do it. And since they have experience with second rate music UIs, they would feel right at home with Android (sorry, couldn't resist).

They could embrace the open nature of the OS, strip out everything they don't need, but leave in the core functionality, polish the crap out of the player, add in additional codec support and have the ultimate PMP for the 'I hate Apple and everything they stand for' crowd.

They could, I guess, if they wanted to. But even dumb-phones can play music now, so what's the point of this exercise again?

 

[theeedude]

I know it's shocking that businesses want to do more profitable things instead of less profitable ones.

 

[Deeko]

I know it's shocking that businesses want to do more profitable things instead of less profitable ones.

Its also shocking to learn that a business can "expand" and "sell multiple product lines."

If every company used your logic, Microsoft wouldn't have made Office, or any of their other non-Windows products. After all, they aren't as profitable as Windows.

 

[theeedude]

Its also shocking to learn that a business can "expand" and "sell multiple product lines."

If every company used your logic, Microsoft wouldn't have made Office, or any of their other non-Windows products. After all, they aren't as profitable as Windows.

It's about picking your battles. The big money pot that everyone is fighting over is the smartphone business, not the evolutionary dead end that is the PMP.

 

[EarthwormJim]

I'm surprised Nvidia hasn't tried to branch out to this market directly. They have a perfectly good Tegra platform that basically exists in only one device (Zune HD).

An Android tegra media player seems like it would sell nicely if marketed and implemented well. The hardware certainly exists and is cheap enough now.

Because it's a waste of a perfectly good phone platform. The modem costs basically nothing compared to price of overall device, Snapdragon has it on chip for example.

That's true, however a device that doesn't use the wireless modem at all can cut down on cost and size by not needing space for the antenna, and also by not needing as big of a battery.

 

[TheStu]

It's about picking your battles. The big money pot that everyone is fighting over is the smartphone business, not the evolutionary dead end that is the PMP.

It might be an evolutionary dead end, but it is not a monetary one, not yet. How many times do we have tell you that not everyone wants to use their smartphone as their music player? Not everyone wants a smartphone, period. Not everyone that would want an android touch wants to buy it out of contract and either pull the SIM or disable the cell radio. My sisters and I just bought my Dad an iPod Touch, he loves the thing. He has wanted an MP3 player for a while, but never would buy it for himself. I was over there the other weekend and there he was, sitting in the kitchen, playing games on it.

He told me that the other night he was up just watching YouTube videos on it.

He, and MILLIONS of other people like their iPod Touches, and that is MILLIONS of people out there that would probably be just fine with an Android based one. Who gives a shit if it is an evolutionary dead end when it is still millions of customers, just in the US.

Honestly, I think that the correct answer is that Android doesn't have the ecosystem in place like Apple and Microsoft. Not that makers think that they can't make money (bull$hit answer), not that PMP are a dead end (answer only valid for nerds), and not that other makers think that they can't make as much money (still bull$hit, different reasons).

 

[theeedude]

OK, maybe the Andorid device manufacturers are just blind then, you should start your own if you think there is such an awesome opportunity there.

 

[Deeko]

OK, maybe the Andorid device manufacturers are just blind then, you should start your own if you think there is such an awesome opportunity there.

Or, maybe the problem is that Android is just not a good platform for a PMP. Is that *really* hard to accept?

 

[theeedude]

Or, maybe the problem is that Android is just not a good platform for a PMP. Is that *really* hard to accept?

It's an OK PMP platform from my point of view as a potential user, I would be interested in an Android based iPod touch style device with media playback, Flash capable browser and Android Apps for $200.
It's not a good platform from manufacturer's point of view, because there is not a good way for them to monetize it aside from selling the device itself, which is not a high gross margin business. Even when Google launches its own Music store, it's not going to help the manufacturer, since Google gets to keep the profits off the store, while they still have make profits only off the device itself.
When smartphone market is saturated and profit margins drop, more manufacturers will settle for PMP margins, but for now they have bigger fish to fry.

 

[exdeath]

Google and Co. subsidizes Android through service contracts with cellular providers. You're not going to see an stand alone Android device that isn't tethered to some kind of monthly service contract.

 

[TheWart]

Google and Co. subsidizes Android through service contracts with cellular providers. You're not going to see an stand alone Android device that isn't tethered to some kind of monthly service contract.

EDIT: looks like I was wrong!

 

[Pliablemoose]

???

Don't such devices already exist? Google doesn't subsidize Android, unless you consider not charging for it subsidization.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...id-google-is-paying-them-to-2010-3?utm_source

:hmm:

 

[TheWart]

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...id-google-is-paying-them-to-2010-3?utm_source

:hmm:

hmm, well I feel silly now.

 

[QueBert]

Google and Co. subsidizes Android through service contracts with cellular providers. You're not going to see an stand alone Android device that isn't tethered to some kind of monthly service contract.

Archos has one, but it's not very good at all.

 

[zerocool84]

Google and Co. subsidizes Android through service contracts with cellular providers. You're not going to see an stand alone Android device that isn't tethered to some kind of monthly service contract.

Well there ya go case closed.

 

[TheWart]

Well there ya go case closed.

Well, as the link Pliablemoose provided points out, the amount of money is relatively trivial. In addition, a manufacturer could still bundle Google services (maps/mail/search) on a PMP device.

 

[zerocool84]

Well, as the link Pliablemoose provided points out, the amount of money is relatively trivial. In addition, a manufacturer could still bundle Google services (maps/mail/search) on a PMP device.

It'd be smart if they helped companies make one. They'd get people tied to the market like with the Touch.