Why isnt the stock market a SCAM?

biggerRIG

Banned
Aug 16, 2006
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How is it that the stock market isnt one giant scam? I am by no means an expert, but here are my thoughts:

1) Mosts stocks don't pay dividends, and those that do don't pay very much (i.e. you'd get more in a high yield moneymarket or CD). Therefore, for an individual investor, the only reason to buy a stock is the belief that the share price will appreciate. There is NO other utility behind stock ownership (for the average investor) other than potential appreciation of shares. This is in stark contrast to other markets such as the housing market. When you buy a house you receive a place to live, and houses generally appreciate 3% per year and keep up with inflation. This is also in contrast to the baseball card market: When you buy a baseball card you receive a nice little card with a players name on it, and the value on that card depends on many factors including the rarity of the card, physical quality of the card, and the players ability.However, the baseball cards (on average) keep up with inflation. On the other hand, with stocks, we get to see little numbers on our fidelity accounts that tell us how many shares we own. And we expect those shares to grow at 10% per year! It seems stocks (like housing and baseball cards) should appreciate at the rate of inflation.

2) Stock price depends on demand. For there to be 10% average stock price appreciation yearly and assuming inflation is 3%, then there must be a 7% increase in demand yearly! How can we possibly sustain a 7% YOY growth rate in stock market demand? The world population growth rate is less than 2%! It seems to me that demand is doomed to reach a peak, and when it does, stock appreciation will level off at near inflation rates which will cause people to pull out of the market and go into fixed rate.

3) Demand for securities is being artificially increased due to the popularity of new retirement plans (401k, roth IRA, etc), the media, and the mindset that "stocks are the best bet for your money" and "10% per year over the long term" and "buy and hold"


 

forfor

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Jul 7, 2006
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This is your first post? :D

Oh, and your point #2 is totally wrong, infact, its laughable ;)
 

biggerRIG

Banned
Aug 16, 2006
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Originally posted by: Lonyo
The stock market does crash or decline every now and then, remember ~2000?

Still, the overall stock market from 1900 to 2006 grew at around 10% per year. That takes into account the multiple crashes.
 

Zolty

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: biggerRIG
Originally posted by: forfor
This is your first post? :D

Oh, and your point #2 is totally wrong, infact, its laughable ;)

explain how its wrong.

Could you tell me where I could get a free ipod?
 

AccruedExpenditure

Diamond Member
May 12, 2001
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Stocks in non-dividend paying companies are best viewed as barometers of a company's perceived financial solubility. The market is a clearing house of sentiment.

Read up on Behavioral Finance... it will help you answer some of the questions you've raised
 

UDT89

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2001
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and point #1, if you want you can get your stock certs from your broker.......
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
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1) Welcome to Anandtech.

2) The 10%/year average is gone for now. Many experts expect it more in the 7-8% range. This is because stock market price increases have slowed and because dividends are less than what they were historically.

3) Companies profits and revenues tend to go up ~7% year after year. So why shouldn't the value of the company also go up in a similar fashion? Heck, GDP goes up roughly 7% year after year (note: this 7% is before adjusting for inflation, after inflation the real GDP growth is more like 3%).

3) I'm no card expert, but isn't the baseball card in a horrible rut? Aren't cards losing value at an alarming rate?

4) Of course retirement plans play a major role, what else would you expect?

5) There will be a peak in US demand. As the population ages, people will start selling their stocks to fund their retirement. The baby boomers are now 60. They will very soon start this massive (but gradual) selloff. However, this will be offset by still growing and still young foreign investors who will buy US stocks.

6) Don't expect ANYTHING that averages a X% return to return X% every year. There will be many years when you get far less and many years when you get far more than X%. Your expectations are unreasonable. In fact, if you start with several years at less than X%, yet average X%, your total yield when you are done will be far less than your average yield.

7) You can't use inflation in that way. The price inflation of consumer goods has little to do with the inflation of monetary supply.
 

AccruedExpenditure

Diamond Member
May 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: forfor
This is your first post? :D

Oh, and your point #2 is totally wrong, infact, its laughable ;)

Actually his point is valid... to an extent... "security demand" as a function of year over year global GDP growth and the percentage of that GDP dedicated to securitues investment...

Which raises an interesting question in itself... What happens when all these pension funds start going cash flow negative?
 

UDT89

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: biggerRIG
Originally posted by: UDT89
Originally posted by: biggerRIG
Originally posted by: forfor
This is your first post? :D

Oh, and your point #2 is totally wrong, infact, its laughable ;)

explain how its wrong.

how old are you?

I fail to see how my age has anything to do with this?

well since ur so sensitive.....its b/c i wanted to see if you took Economics 101 or Finance 101 or if you're still in 11th grade.
 

hysperion

Senior member
May 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: UDT89
and point #1, if you want you can get your stock certs from your broker.......

simply- the more money going into the stock market the more stocks appreciate.........

When the market first started only the rich were involved.....

Eventually the common man got involved.......

Then we got the internet allowing the convenience of investing from your own home......

Now pensions are out of style and every employer is using 401k's to contribute to the market......

And your inflation numbers are wrong......you're using price inflation numbers which don't correspond to the stock market. The numbers you want to look at are new money supply. The goverment prints/creates 8-9% more money supply every year and that right there is the big reason the stock market is hovering around the levels it is.........Eventually when population growth stops, demand for new money will decrease and if money is still printed out at these rates- severe inflation will be the effect.......
 

biggerRIG

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Aug 16, 2006
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Originally posted by: dullard

3) Companies profits and revenues tend to go up ~7% year after year. So why shouldn't the value of the company also go up in a similar fashion? Heck, GDP goes up roughly 7% year after year (note: this 7% is before adjusting for inflation, after inflation the real GDP growth is more like 3%).

Yes but for stocks that dont pay dividends, profits have nothing to do with share price. Share price is based off supply and demand. This is why we had stocks like pets.com going for 100's per share and yet pets.com was negative in profits.

 

AccruedExpenditure

Diamond Member
May 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: dullard
Companies profits and revenues tend to go up ~7% year after year. So why shouldn't the value of the company also go up in a similar fashion? Heck, GDP goes up roughly 7% year after year (note: this 7% is before adjusting for inflation, after inflation the real GDP growth is more like 3%).

Ding, Ding... the long term market average appreciation in the market is about 3% after inflation about the same as GDP growth... the run up we've seeing in recent years is due to an increased proportion of Global GDP being dedicated to securties investment (all asset classes, from stocks, to bonds, to MBS).
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: biggerRIG
Yes but for stocks that dont pay dividends, profits have nothing to do with share price. Share price is based off supply and demand. This is why we had stocks like pets.com going for 100's per share and yet pets.com was negative in profits.
Even if a stock doesn't pay dividends, profits have EVERYTHING to do with share price. Demand for a stock is a function of profits. If a company does well, people want to own the stock, so demand increases. If a company does poorly, people want to sell that stock, so demand decreases. And since supply of stock is usually constant, the stock price is a function of only demand which is a function of profit.

Have you ever heard of P/E ratios? Many, many people base their stock purchases on this P/E number.

Demand isn't only a function of price however, as you have pointed out. There is also irrational exubberance to think about. People chase unrealistic dreams - this is irrational.
 

AccruedExpenditure

Diamond Member
May 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: biggerRIG
Originally posted by: dullard

3) Companies profits and revenues tend to go up ~7% year after year. So why shouldn't the value of the company also go up in a similar fashion? Heck, GDP goes up roughly 7% year after year (note: this 7% is before adjusting for inflation, after inflation the real GDP growth is more like 3%).

Yes but for stocks that dont pay dividends, profits have nothing to do with share price. Share price is based off supply and demand. This is why we had stocks like pets.com going for 100's per share and yet pets.com was negative in profits.

No one said markets were perfect, what we saw in the late 90's was a overallocation of capital in unviable businesses. Behavioral Finance helps to explain bubbles.

Wikipedia entry for Behavioral Finance.
 

AccruedExpenditure

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May 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: biggerRIG
Yes but for stocks that dont pay dividends, profits have nothing to do with share price. Share price is based off supply and demand. This is why we had stocks like pets.com going for 100's per share and yet pets.com was negative in profits.
Even if a stock doesn't pay dividends, profits have EVERYTHING to do with share price. Demand for a stock is a function of profits. If a company does well, people want to own the stock, so demand increases. If a company does poorly, people want to sell that stock, so demand decreases. And since supply of stock is usually constant, the stock price is a function of only demand which is a function of profit.

Have you ever heard of P/E ratios? Many, many people base their stock purchases on this P/E number.

Demand isn't only a function of price however, as you have pointed out. There is also irrational exubberance to think about. People chase unrealistic dreams - this is irrational.

Tulipmania!
 

biggerRIG

Banned
Aug 16, 2006
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Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: biggerRIG
Yes but for stocks that dont pay dividends, profits have nothing to do with share price. Share price is based off supply and demand. This is why we had stocks like pets.com going for 100's per share and yet pets.com was negative in profits.
Even if a stock doesn't pay dividends, profits have EVERYTHING to do with share price. Demand for a stock is a function of profits. If a company does well, people want to own the stock, so demand increases. If a company does poorly, people want to sell that stock, so demand decreases. And since supply of stock is usually constant, the stock price is a function of only demand which is a function of profit.

Have you ever heard of P/E ratios? Many, many people base their stock purchases on this P/E number.

Demand isn't only a function of price however, as you have pointed out. There is also irrational exubberance to think about. People chase unrealistic dreams - this is irrational.

I realize demand for stocks is a function of profits, much in the same way demand for a baseball card is a function of the players batting average.

For non dividend stocks, its all baseball cards to me!
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: biggerRIG
For non dividend stocks, its all baseball cards to me!
Even if you do want to think of it that way, and even if it was a scam, you can still profit from it. Just make certain you have a well diversified portfolio. Own large companies and small ones. Own growing companies and value ones. Own US companies and foreign ones. Own companies in all market sectors. Eventually, own a little real estate and just a little commodities.

Then once a year, partially sell what did well and put that money into what did poorly. That way you are always buying low and selling high.

In the end, you'll be up a good 7-8% on average. If you are lucky, maybe you will hit 10% or beyond.

 

GasX

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: biggerRIGI'm no expert, i just recently started studying up on the market in hopes of doing better with my 401k account. I just can't seem to take the market seriously...

What do you think?
I think it shows...
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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If you are caught up on dividends, check out The Dogs of the Dow.

If you want to learn more about how to try and predict what stocks are strong and will continue to return good profits, check out the CANSLIM test of measuring a companies strength.
 

biggerRIG

Banned
Aug 16, 2006
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Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: biggerRIG
For non dividend stocks, its all baseball cards to me!
Even if you do want to think of it that way, and even if it was a scam, you can still profit from it. Just make certain you have a well diversified portfolio. Own large companies and small ones. Own growing companies and value ones. Own US companies and foreign ones. Own companies in all market sectors. Eventually, own a little real estate and just a little commodities.

Then once a year, partially sell what did well and put that money into what did poorly. That way you are always buying low and selling high.

In the end, you'll be up a good 7-8% on average. If you are lucky, maybe you will hit 10% or beyond.


You can also make money on Ponzi schemes such as the late 12dailypro.