Why is plumbing so hard for me?

[Scarpozzi]

I hate soldering copper pipe....it sucks when you spin your wheels getting the pipe dry, solder a fitting (while trying not to burn your house down)...then you turn the water on to see a very slow leak form. (like 1 drip every 5-10 minutes) I had a leak in a copper elbow the other day that fed one of my toilets, so I cut that section of pipe out and put on a 1/2" copper to PEX nipple. I got it all hooked back up and then saw the drip form.

I'm trying to rough in a new bathroom on the other end of the house and I also seem to have trouble gluing PVC connections. I was leak testing my vent lines and found 3-4 drips in various fittings. I think the connections broke loose while I was trying to strap them and get them away from studs... I'm also wondering if I had a bad batch of cement or just never got the pipe to seat right. I wish they made a slower curing PVC cement. In some cases, I'd like to have more time for piecing together some pipes/fittings and that seems to be my biggest challenge when doing rough plumbing....I don't have a lot of room to maneuver some of these pipes and it just creates opportunities for bad joints.


Thanks for listening....next time around, I'm just going to call a professional for the whole job so I don't spin my wheels so much. This stage of the game is pretty brutal having to test vent pipes to the roof and fill the whole system with water. In most cases, the pipes aren't designed for that kind of loading (like drains and bathtub overflows).

 

[boomerang]

A wise man knows his limitations. We all have things we are good at and things we are not so good at.

 

[highland145]

Practice makes perfect. Keep at it.

Gotta get that pipe clean, copper or pvc. Use flux. Heat the center of the fitting. The solder will be drawn into the joint. Water in the line will turn into steam and ruin your joint. A trick before soldering copper on a line that just won't get dry is bread. Seriously, I watched my bro, the plumber, do it. But you need to make sure the next faucet that's opened has the strainer off so the bread can come out.

On the pvc, same bro, dry fits and uses a sharpie to mark a line between 2 pieces. That way, when it's glue time, there's no fumbling about the angle of the fittings.

 

[Greenman]

I hate soldering copper pipe....it sucks when you spin your wheels getting the pipe dry, solder a fitting (while trying not to burn your house down)...then you turn the water on to see a very slow leak form. (like 1 drip every 5-10 minutes) I had a leak in a copper elbow the other day that fed one of my toilets, so I cut that section of pipe out and put on a 1/2" copper to PEX nipple. I got it all hooked back up and then saw the drip form.

I'm trying to rough in a new bathroom on the other end of the house and I also seem to have trouble gluing PVC connections. I was leak testing my vent lines and found 3-4 drips in various fittings. I think the connections broke loose while I was trying to strap them and get them away from studs... I'm also wondering if I had a bad batch of cement or just never got the pipe to seat right. I wish they made a slower curing PVC cement. In some cases, I'd like to have more time for piecing together some pipes/fittings and that seems to be my biggest challenge when doing rough plumbing....I don't have a lot of room to maneuver some of these pipes and it just creates opportunities for bad joints.


Thanks for listening....next time around, I'm just going to call a professional for the whole job so I don't spin my wheels so much. This stage of the game is pretty brutal having to test vent pipes to the roof and fill the whole system with water. In most cases, the pipes aren't designed for that kind of loading (like drains and bathtub overflows).

Try using La-co flux for the copper, and always heat where you want the solder to go, not where you're applying it. It's also important not to overheat the joint.
For the PVC I'm not sure what to tell you, prime it, apply the glue and stick it together. I've never had a pvc joint leak.
One other note, the tub drain and overflow shouldn't be connected for the test, those fittings aren't designed to take 10' of head pressure.

 

[NetWareHead]

For the most part, you need less solder than you think. There is the urge to be thorough and use extra but it is surprising how little solder you actually need to properly seal a joint. IMO, proper flame placement and not overheating the joint are key. Plus solder is expensive. Too much solder and you could have this:

 

[Scarpozzi]

Practice makes perfect. Keep at it.

Gotta get that pipe clean, copper or pvc. Use flux. Heat the center of the fitting. The solder will be drawn into the joint. Water in the line will turn into steam and ruin your joint. A trick before soldering copper on a line that just won't get dry is bread. Seriously, I watched my bro, the plumber, do it. But you need to make sure the next faucet that's opened has the strainer off so the bread can come out.

On the pvc, same bro, dry fits and uses a sharpie to mark a line between 2 pieces. That way, when it's glue time, there's no fumbling about the angle of the fittings.

I cleaned, used flux, dried the lines by opening a valve overhead and the one on my tankless water heater (lower in the system) to drain the lines.... I still saw steam, so I crammed bread in the lines. I heated the fitting the best I could... There's still a slight drip. I actually left it there because I'm going to let the crawlspace dry out some and attack the problem from the other side of my drain lines in a few weeks. I ordered some crawlspace vent fans this week to place at opposite ends of the house that I plan on installing soon to improve moisture control down there.

Good call on the sharpie. Honestly, I think my biggest problem with PVC is the size of the dobber/brush they put in the glue cans. I'm assuming I'm not getting enough glue where it needs to be on the pipe when making the connections. I think I've gotten a bad batch of PVC cement too...I've seen a few joints fail that shouldn't have (because I took my time and know I did things right). I pulled my pvc vent lines apart last night and was going to replace a 12 foot run with a 22.5 and 2 elbows. I instantly had trouble lining up a 10 foot section of pipe to make a good connection. I got the pipe cleaner out, cleaned the glue residue off the best I could and reached for my cellphone to call Eddie the Plumber. This guy is honest, drives a beat up van, and in his mid 50's.... He helped me once before on a project....spent 3 hours sourcing parts, maybe a hour of work....charged me $75. I'm going to make sure I pay him what this job is worth to me.

If he can get me through this bathroom rough-in and make the pipes watertight, I can move on with my life and get the framing inspection done on this build. I wish I had done the build without the bathroom and added it later, but it's just too hard to run this kind of plumbing after putting wallboard up.

I've tangled enough with the plumbing in my house the past few years. I replaced my electric water heater with a tankless gas unit and plumbed that....gas pipe, copper feeding the unit, and vent...
Because the new bathroom I'm roughing in is on the second floor, I had to upgrade all my water lines to 3/4" from 1/2" to handle the elevation change. And I converted my laundry to a bathroom and moved my old stand pipe/feed lines to the opposite side of the room to fix a room flow/workstation problem with the room. The bathrooms I've added required a new run of 65 feet of horizontal sewer lines to the street.) I had a plumber quote me $4500 to upgrade my water lines and run the sewer line. I completed the task for $1300. From here on out, I'm going to be working only with PEX where possible. It's so much better than dealing with sweat joints, at least under my house where you're on your back with only a few inches between the pipe and overhead insulation.

Of course, if I have the means, I'm going to be paying someone where possible just to alleviate the headache. My only issue is, I don't want to pay someone to crawl under my house....I wouldn't wish that crawl on anyone.

 

[highland145]

Mine is pretty low too. Had a guy out to look at replacing the old duct work. He looked under the house, said, "Nope" and left.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Mine is pretty low too. Had a guy out to look at replacing the old duct work. He looked under the house, said, "Nope" and left.

I hate that people aren't starving these days. That's the problem with independent guys....

The larger outfits have an estimator come in and quote a job (not taking into account how miserable the conditions are)....then the poor kids doing the work have no choice when they get there.

 

[NetWareHead]

The bread trick works, just roll it up into a tight ball and stuff into the line (no crust). Work quick to assemble and sweat the joint because if there is water coming down the line, the rolled up bread can only soak up so much. Make sure you push it far away from where you are sweating. The heat from the torch will toast the bread and will need longer to dissolve. There is a another product called "plumber's bread" which mimics wonder bread but dissolves even quicker. Never used it myself.

When bread has not worked, I have used a shop vac to blow or suck out the line. Sometimes with a faucet open at the far end of the pipe, this will be enough to evacuate any remaining water to allow sweating

Lookup a product called "jet swet". Its an expanding bulb on the end of a rod that you insert into the open end of the pipe. The bulb expands and seals the pipe allowing sweating. Remove the jet swet and continue. "Quick Sweat" is a variation on jet swet in that is uses a flexible cable rather than a rigid rod allowing you to go around elbows etc...

When you are using a coupling to join 2 longer pipe lengths, you wont have access to the inside of the pipe to retrieve a jet swet. Instead of a coupling, I use a union. You can sweat each end of the union individually on to the pipe; while sweating you can pitch the pipe to let any water runoff and not ruin the joint. After each side of the union is completed, tighten the union nut.

How are you cleaning the pipe before fluxing? Plumber's emery cloth is recommended. Some guys use steel wool but Ive heard the wool can leave behind particles that can interfere with a joint.

Keep in mind when sweating, heat expands air. If any water in the line, steam expands even more. Enough to generate enough internal pressure to push the fitting away from the pipe. Leave a valve or something open to relieve this internal pressure.

Re: your PVC, cant figure out what you are doing wrong. Are you pushing the pipe/fitting together after gluing? I usually give it 5 -10 seconds of force before releasing.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Be sure to clean the pipe good, sand the parts that will touch (ex: inside the fitting, and outside the pipe) and apply a good amount of flux. Put it together and turn and pull it in out while doing so to evenly distribute the flux. Then heat both ends really good (may take like 30 secs to even a minute at times depending on if there's lot of other pipe that may be acting as heat sink) then keep touching the solder until you can see it get sucked in.

I find once you did it a few times and got a successful bond it's kinda satisfying. Also, let it cool down before you turn on the water, so you don't shock it. I don't really know if that matters, but I feel better to wait a bit.

For dealing with water, I sometimes like to open a faucet somewhere then stick air compressor at another end to try to blow the water out. Start with a low pressure and then use your fingers to try to seal the air gun in, and the water should start to come out of faucet. 30 psi should be good enough. Turn off faucets upstairs after you do this, as any residual water is less likely to come back down.

 

[Scarpozzi]

The bread trick works, just roll it up into a tight ball and stuff into the line (no crust). Work quick to assemble and sweat the joint because if there is water coming down the line, the rolled up bread can only soak up so much. Make sure you push it far away from where you are sweating. The heat from the torch will toast the bread and will need longer to dissolve. There is a another product called "plumber's bread" which mimics wonder bread but dissolves even quicker. Never used it myself.

When bread has not worked, I have used a shop vac to blow or suck out the line. Sometimes with a faucet open at the far end of the pipe, this will be enough to evacuate any remaining water to allow sweating

Lookup a product called "jet swet". Its an expanding bulb on the end of a rod that you insert into the open end of the pipe. The bulb expands and seals the pipe allowing sweating. Remove the jet swet and continue. "Quick Sweat" is a variation on jet swet in that is uses a flexible cable rather than a rigid rod allowing you to go around elbows etc...

When you are using a coupling to join 2 longer pipe lengths, you wont have access to the inside of the pipe to retrieve a jet swet. Instead of a coupling, I use a union. You can sweat each end of the union individually on to the pipe; while sweating you can pitch the pipe to let any water runoff and not ruin the joint. After each side of the union is completed, tighten the union nut.

How are you cleaning the pipe before fluxing? Plumber's emery cloth is recommended. Some guys use steel wool but Ive heard the wool can leave behind particles that can interfere with a joint.

Keep in mind when sweating, heat expands air. If any water in the line, steam expands even more. Enough to generate enough internal pressure to push the fitting away from the pipe. Leave a valve or something open to relieve this internal pressure.

Re: your PVC, cant figure out what you are doing wrong. Are you pushing the pipe/fitting together after gluing? I usually give it 5 -10 seconds of force before releasing.

The last time I was working with solder/copper, I was upgrading all my pipes to copper... I ran T's off the main hot and cold lines out....then went to valves that went to threaded 3/4" connections so I could convert the lines to PEX (and disconnect the lines if needed without having to solder them again). I used those threaded connections to connect my air compressor. I blew the lines out with about 80 PSI of compressed air (which dissipated quickly due to the length of the lines and my mere 6 gallon tank). It really helped dry the lines out quickly though...

For the PVC, I think I strugged for a mix of 2 reasons. I believe I had problems not using enough glue and had trouble with a repair slip couplings. Honestly, most of my problems are that I was working overhead in joists that were on 12" centers. I had a limited amount of space to work in and when it came to applying glue, it was always falling on me... I used a few slip couplings/repair couplings and never could get those to not leak. I finally gave up and used a fernco to join two sections of pipe. My pipe runs had almost zero give because I was going through iJoists on 12" centers. Lots of vertical space, but not a lot of horizontal/lateral space...

I scheduled my plumbing re-inspection today and because I'm putting in a mini-split too, I had my HVAC installer schedule that inspection as well. They came out and did the inspection for both and sent a different inspector this time. He glanced at the pipes and said, "Looks good...." then signed the papers. The inspector that came out previously was definitely more, ahem....thorough....and picky. He was talking about how I had to do all this extra stuff...insulate the hot water lines with 2 inches of insulation for new energy codes, etc... The guy that came out today mentioned it, but said, "It's your house..."

I climbed under my house on Friday to finish running my coax and check the status of my repairs......and to install a new hygrometer sensing vent fan for the crawlspace. I checked the sweat joint and didn't see any drips. It may have just been condensation on the joint after it cooled down so quickly. I'm going to give it a week or so and go back down to install another vent fan I got...I'll check it again then and see how much water has dissipated.

I'm soo happy to be done with this part of my headaches. My next phase is to finish slapping on some last minute hurricane ties (to avoid the headaches of an inspector telling me I need them) and get my framing inspection done. I've got about 2 hours of work this week before I mark that off my list and try setting up my spray foam insulation. Wish me luck...I want to get this junk done!