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Why is it everytime they approach peace or a settlement between the Palestinians and Israelis, the Palestinians start...

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,941
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Why is it everytime they approach peace or a settlement between the Palestinians and Israelis, the Palestinians start suicidebombing? I mean, everytime you see progress in the talks, suicide bombings increase. Don't the Palestinians want their own state? But everytime they approach the agreement, it gets ruined. And Arafat, who did all the negotiations for the last decade, didn't even try to put a stop to them... heck, even his own groups were doing bombings.

Am i missing something here?
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,941
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Dude, don't trivialize this! I'm seriously trying to understand the reasoning of these suicide bombers.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,941
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Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
the terrorists don't want a partition, they want all the land:p
I thought about that actually... they don't want the Israelis as a neighbor. But that's a hopeless cause, because unless they can get half a million suicide bombers, that ain't going to happen. Wouldn't the smart thing to do is get your own land and your own government, then try to build a military, then take back the land?
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,707
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If you remember correctly, the militant groups declared a cease fire until Israel decided to blow up senior Hamas leades randomly one day, which incited the cycle of violence up to today. There was a very nice calm in the area before that incident.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
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Originally posted by: lozina
If you remember correctly, the militant groups declared a cease fire until Israel decided to blow up senior Hamas leades randomly one day, which incited the cycle of violence up to today. There was a very nice calm in the area before that incident.
Correct. It is Israel that wants no cease fire.

 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,941
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Originally posted by: lozina
If you remember correctly, the militant groups declared a cease fire until Israel decided to blow up senior Hamas leades randomly one day, which incited the cycle of violence up to today. There was a very nice calm in the area before that incident.
Hmm i remember that actually, and it was in response to suicide bombings.

EDIT: Is this what you were talking about:

The Israeli move came a day after two Hamas suicide bombings killed 15 Israelis.
 

sbp

Member
Oct 29, 1999
107
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The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,707
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Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Originally posted by: lozina
If you remember correctly, the militant groups declared a cease fire until Israel decided to blow up senior Hamas leades randomly one day, which incited the cycle of violence up to today. There was a very nice calm in the area before that incident.
Hmm i remember that actually, and it was in response to suicide bombings.

You're thinking of later attacks, after the cease fire was called off. This was the original attack for this latest cycle:

story

edit: jsut read your edit- yeah I thought you were thinking of that, but there was alot of violence on both sides throughout august, after this incident on Aug. 8th
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,941
4
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Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Originally posted by: lozina
If you remember correctly, the militant groups declared a cease fire until Israel decided to blow up senior Hamas leades randomly one day, which incited the cycle of violence up to today. There was a very nice calm in the area before that incident.
Hmm i remember that actually, and it was in response to suicide bombings.

You're thinking of later attacks, after the cease fire was called off. This was the original attack for this latest cycle:

story

edit: jsut read your edit- yeah I thought you were thinking of that, but there was alot of violence on both sides throughout august, after this incident on Aug. 8th
Ah, yeah i think i remember that now. But still, has Israel always initiated the cycle of violence? I don't know why, but it always seems to me that it's been the Palestinians... but i could be wrong.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,707
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Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Originally posted by: lozina
If you remember correctly, the militant groups declared a cease fire until Israel decided to blow up senior Hamas leades randomly one day, which incited the cycle of violence up to today. There was a very nice calm in the area before that incident.
Hmm i remember that actually, and it was in response to suicide bombings.

You're thinking of later attacks, after the cease fire was called off. This was the original attack for this latest cycle:

story

edit: jsut read your edit- yeah I thought you were thinking of that, but there was alot of violence on both sides throughout august, after this incident on Aug. 8th
Ah, yeah i think i remember that now. But still, has Israel always initiated the cycle of violence? I don't know why, but it always seems to me that it's been the Palestinians... but i could be wrong.

Sure it goes both ways, both sides are at fault for this mess (the conflict as a whole). I just hate when people place blame squarely on Palestinians as if Israel has been picking flowers and minding her own business the whole time. People forget that Palestinians are being occupied and being denied to live where they used to.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,941
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Still, if i were the Palestinians, i would get what land i could, even if Israel were trying to knock the peace off. Then once you get your own state, then you can start planning your revenge.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,707
5
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Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Still, if i were the Palestinians, i would get what land i could, even if Israel were trying to knock the peace off. Then once you get your own state, then you can start planning your revenge.
How would they 'get land'? They've been consistently kicked out of homes since 1948 and not allowed to ever return. During several peace negotiations throughout the past few decades Israeli prime ministers have insisted they will never allow Palestinian refugees to return home. But the land grab is being done very effectively by Israel. It's pretty simple really, build settlements in occupied land and send people there. Now this place must be protected right?! Build a wall around it and connect to nearby settlements, effectively annexing all the land behind the wall. Clever plan by the Israelis, but it's atrocious and violates UN mandates on the border of Israel.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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To elaborate just a little. First, you lose half your land. The plan the Western powers had was that the Arabs and Jews would be integrated in Israel. If you read The Source, by Michner, you find out that the Arabs were so afraid when Israel came into being that they fled. That is only partly true. Now that Israel has been in existence for over 50 years, Israeli scholars are beginning to publish about how the Arabs were turned out of the country. Many, many were given the choice of leaving or getting shot. Then you had definite second class citizen treatment for the Arabs who remained. Difficulty getting building permits, constant ID checks, etc. So the Arabs got idea that they'd wipe Israel out. The didn't work out too well for them. Eventually Israel took over supervision of what is referred to as the occupied territories. It was supposed to be a temporary thing but Israel actively encouraged settlement in the occupied territories. When Israel made peace with Egypt it was required to remove its settlements from the Negev. There was rioting in Israel. And the Negev settlements were just a patch compared to the settlements in the occupied territory. Look at the way the fence is being built. It encroaches on Palestinian land even more than the current boundary. Then you have collective punishments for the Palestinians, the fairly systematic destruction of olive trees, and the worst (or most thorough) system of checkpoints in the world. Israeli's have private roads through the occupied territories, further balkanizing them. The Arabs aren't blameless. They did attack or attempt to attack Israel, they have supported terrorists. But perhaps worst of all, no Arab nation would extend meaningful help to the Palestinians because they wanted to keep them in misery to create pressure on Israel.

As to suicide bombers, ask yourself what other tools the Palestinians have. On the Palestinian side you have a small number of fanatics engaging in terror. On the Israeli side, you have a national government engaging in what I would consider terror. Suicide bombers continue to work because Israel continues to mistreat Palestinians and stall.

There is, of course, much more on both sides. Rabin, an Israeli prime minister who was perhaps on the way to making peace with the Palestinians was killed by a right wing Jewish fanatic. Sharon has a history and philosopyh that is well known to the Arabs. He was in charge of a detail that massacred a village. I'm not sure what the extent of the "masacre" was but he definitely has bloody hands and is not disposed to peace. Both sides are plagued with rabid fundamentalists.
 

Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
1,456
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Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Why is it everytime they approach peace or a settlement between the Palestinians and Israelis, the Palestinians start suicidebombing? I mean, everytime you see progress in the talks, suicide bombings increase. Don't the Palestinians want their own state? But everytime they approach the agreement, it gets ruined. And Arafat, who did all the negotiations for the last decade, didn't even try to put a stop to them... heck, even his own groups were doing bombings.

Am i missing something here?

they were not happy with getting 99% of what they orginally asked for(right before this whole intifada started) and will never, ever be satisfied. that is why. in 2000 Israel was prepared to give them everything except total control of Jerusalem...but the israel bashers do not seem to remember that, they blame sharon for going up the temple mount inflaming the muslims, the place is holy to Jews too...they call it the "temple mount" for a reason. but the palestinian apologists do not care about that.

in the yom kippur war Israel won control opf the temple mount, a few years later as a concession in negotioations they gave control back, and guess how this was repaid? if a jew goes there riots ensue.

the simple truth is the muslims do not want to share the land or the temple mount, period.





 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Why is it everytime they approach peace or a settlement between the Palestinians and Israelis, the Palestinians start suicidebombing? I mean, everytime you see progress in the talks, suicide bombings increase. Don't the Palestinians want their own state? But everytime they approach the agreement, it gets ruined. And Arafat, who did all the negotiations for the last decade, didn't even try to put a stop to them... heck, even his own groups were doing bombings.

Am i missing something here?

they were not happy with getting 99% of what they orginally asked for(right before this whole intifada started) and will never, ever be satisfied. that is why. in 2000 Israel was prepared to give them everything except total control of Jerusalem...but the israel bashers do not seem to remember that, they blame sharon for going up the temple mount inflaming the muslims, the place is holy to Jews too...they call it the "temple mount" for a reason. but the palestinian apologists do not care about that.

in the yom kippur war Israel won control opf the temple mount, a few years later as a concession in negotioations they gave control back, and guess how this was repaid? if a jew goes there riots ensue.

the simple truth is the muslims do not want to share the land or the temple mount, period.

if a Jew goes there, riots ensue
Yes, Sharon is just any old Jew and he just went there.

He's not the leader of the Israeli's and he certanly didn't go there with a bodyguard.
Oh, and he certainly didn't know it would inflame the Palestinians.

Muslims don't want to share the land? How come Israel's "security" fence has incursions into land owned by Palestinians, sometimes cutting farmers off from their land? And the Palestinians don't want to share land?

Way to get a biased view.

(yes, that post was mostly pro-arab, but that was to balance the original post).
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,702
49
91
Arafats biggest fear is having to govern the psycos and murders he's surrounded him self with. It's easier to just continue killing Jewish children...
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
71
Hi,

I'm always surprised at the language used with this situation. If it were N. Ireland we were talking about I wouldn't say:

"Why is it everytime they approach peace or a settlement between the British and the Irish , the Irish start bombing?"

Becuase that's not the case. More appropriate would be:

"Why is it everytime they approach peace or a settlement between the British and the Irish , the terrorists (Irish or otherwise in this example) start bombing?"

You see IMHO it's a great mistake to label the Palestinian extremeist terrorist groups merely as "Palestinian". The % of the Palestinians who actually raise arms against the Isreali's is probably very small.

A more apt assessment IMHO is:

"Why is it everytime they approach peace or a settlement between the Palestinians and Israelis, the Palestinian extremeist terrorists start suicidebombing whilst the Palestinian administration does little or nothing to stop this?"

Maybe if their PM (whom appeared to have a more reasonable state of mind than their president) had the power things might move back on track. In the meantime the Israeli's (the ones with the power) should try harder to exercise restarint. After all (and I'd bet my life on this) - all of the military shenanigans they're carrying out won't help one little bit. If anything they'll just draw a wider conflict/sympathy towards extremeist groups from the Arab world and inflame the situation further.

Cheers,

Andy
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,707
5
0
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Why is it everytime they approach peace or a settlement between the Palestinians and Israelis, the Palestinians start suicidebombing? I mean, everytime you see progress in the talks, suicide bombings increase. Don't the Palestinians want their own state? But everytime they approach the agreement, it gets ruined. And Arafat, who did all the negotiations for the last decade, didn't even try to put a stop to them... heck, even his own groups were doing bombings.

Am i missing something here?

they were not happy with getting 99% of what they orginally asked for(right before this whole intifada started) and will never, ever be satisfied. that is why. in 2000 Israel was prepared to give them everything except total control of Jerusalem...but the israel bashers do not seem to remember that, they blame sharon for going up the temple mount inflaming the muslims, the place is holy to Jews too...they call it the "temple mount" for a reason. but the palestinian apologists do not care about that.

in the yom kippur war Israel won control opf the temple mount, a few years later as a concession in negotioations they gave control back, and guess how this was repaid? if a jew goes there riots ensue.

the simple truth is the muslims do not want to share the land or the temple mount, period.

You cite the Oslo accords, but you are relyuing on misleading information. Most people now only remember the large percentage of land which was offered (which was nowhere near 99% BTW !!!) and simple minded people will brood on this number without considered what strings might be attached. Same with shopping for micro-processors- people tend to only go by the raw gigahertz speed without considering other factors such as caches, bus speed, instruction sets... Here's a good article written in Boston Globe a while back detailing why oslo failed. One quote:

Israel's offer at Camp David was indeed the most generous offer Israel had ever made, but it was not an offer of a viable Palestinian state. The Palestine on offer was chopped up into sectors with no access to each other - separated by Israeli settlements, settlement roads, and Israeli-controlled areas. The same was true of East Jerusalem, where Israelis have been trying to force Palestinians to leave. It was if the Palestinian state were to get the spots while the rest of the leopard would remain in Israeli hands. And during the Oslo years Jewish settlements doubled.

Another mistake was for President Clinton and Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Barak to insist that this was an all-or-nothing deal that had to be signed before either of their terms were up. It would have been better to end negotiations by saying that everything agreed upon up to then was settled and the areas of disagreement put off until later. As it was, the burst of Palestinian anger that developed after Sharon's famous Temple Mount visit was encouraged by many of the younger Palestinian leaders frustrated not only with Oslo but with Arafat himself. And Arafat chose not to stop it when he still could.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
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IGBT. Your entry into this thread is as twitly (of or having the qualities of a twit) as I've seen. I'm not an Israel basher. They've got a real problem with fundamentalists and so do the Palestinians, but to say,

"Arafats biggest fear is having to govern the psycos and murders he's surrounded him self with. It's easier to just continue killing Jewish children." is to be full of something that your body should be rid of. Palestinians, including Palestinian children, have been killed in about a 10 to 1 ratio.

Welcome to our planet.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: IGBT
Arafats biggest fear is having to govern the psycos and murders he's surrounded him self with. It's easier to just continue killing Jewish children...
Palestinian boy critically wounded by Israeli gunfire

Agence France Presse
8 October 2003

NABLUS, West Bank, Oct 9-- A Palestinian boy was critically wounded in the northern West Bank town of Qalqilya late Wednesday after Israeli forces opened fire on two children throwing stones, Palestinian medical and security sources said.

Medical sources said the 12-year-old boy was in critical condition after being hit in the head by a bullet as he and a friend threw stones at Israeli soldiers near the West Bank barrier in the area.

Over the past 16 months, Israel has been building a controversial barrier in and around most of the West Bank in a bid to prevent infiltrations by Palestinian militants.

The move has provoked a deep-seated bitterness and anger among the Palestinians because it slices up several thousand hectares (acres) of Palestinian territory and cuts off large swathes of some of the
region's most fertile land.

They also fear it is the precursor of a formal border, although Israel has repeatedly stressed it is only a security measure and has no political significance.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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You need to realize something about all Islamic nations...they are deathly afraid of peace. The leaders are afraid because they won't be able to use fear and hatred to wield their citizenry to their wishes. The citizenry of the middle east are afriad because once they no longer have foreign powers to blame for all their problems they'll finally have to look up and down themselves in a mirror and go "Why the hell am I freaking wearing a robe and sandals in the year 2003?"
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
You need to realize something about all Islamic nations...they are deathly afraid of peace. The leaders are afraid because they won't be able to use fear and hatred to wield their citizenry to their wishes. The citizenry of the middle east are afriad because once they no longer have foreign powers to blame for all their problems they'll finally have to look up and down themselves in a mirror and go "Why the hell am I freaking wearing a robe and sandals in the year 2003?"


bigot
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
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Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
You need to realize something about all Islamic nations...they are deathly afraid of peace. The leaders are afraid because they won't be able to use fear and hatred to wield their citizenry to their wishes. The citizenry of the middle east are afriad because once they no longer have foreign powers to blame for all their problems they'll finally have to look up and down themselves in a mirror and go "Why the hell am I freaking wearing a robe and sandals in the year 2003?"


bigot
Your sense of humor is almost as sharp as your intellect. Dull that is.
 

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