Why is Apple only giving a 5600 FX card with a $3000 system?

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Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
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Hmm for the price of one of those macs i could find a nice overpriced alienware with a P4 3.2GHz 1GB of memory and a GeForce FX 5900 Ultra, and a much better looking case
IMO the Alienware cases look like ricer cars. ie. Tacky. Plus the interior design seems nowhere as nice as the G5 case. Despite the 9 fans, the attendees at the conference say the machine is very quiet. The beef I have with the G5 case though is the single optical drive bay.

On PC there are multiple OS's available unlike Mac being locked to well Mac, on PC u can use Linux or windows, the 2 big ones and then theres BeOS and other os's out there as well.
OS X includes its underlying Unix Darwin backbone, and you can run Linux on it too (Yellow Dog) . In fact, that's one of the main reasons the *nix geeks like OS X so much. The beauty of it is you can completely ignore the Unix backbone of OS X but it's always there if you need it. I ignore it, because I know essentially nothing about Unix. The only Unix program I run in the terminal is top. BTW, I installed Linux (Redhat 6) on my PC, and that was a painful experience for this n00b let me tell you. Anyways, with OS X, you can run *nix apps and mainstream OS X apps at the same time. eg. GIMP and Photoshop running side by side.

IBM doesn't have a power970 specific compiler like the Icc so Gcc is the closest your going to get.
Yes they do. I don't know much about it, but I don't think it's been ported to OS X. I'm guessing that IBM may have used this optimized compiler on Linux to get their SPEC scores of 937 Int and 1051 FP on a single 1.8 GHz G5, which BTW is significantly higher than what Apple gets on OS X with GCC 3.3 and a faster (single) 2.0 GHz CPU. Apple gets 800 and 840 respectively for the 2 Gigger.

And anyways the mac only scoring 335 fps with a ATI 9800 pro is a disapointment.
People are now reporting 375+ fps for timedemo1 benches @ 1024x768 max settings with the G5 2 GHz dual and Radeon 9800 Pro. People are also reporting gameplay in the 70s-80s in UT2003 @ 1920x1200. :Q Dunno what settings or maps though for UT2003.

Actually though, I really don't care about the Quake III scores, since my Celeron 1.4 with Radeon 9100 plays Quake pretty well already. What impressed me was the Mathematica bakeoff. The dual G5 was literally twice as fast as the dual Xeon. Probably some of that is Steve Jobs' Reality Distortion Field (RDF®) at work, and part of that is due to bandwidth differences (1 GHz on G5, 533 MHz on Xeon), but it was very impressive nonetheless. BTW, Mathematica has more Windows customers than for Mac OS X. I dunno for sure, but I presume there is pretty good optimization for Mathematica on the PC side.

Come to think of it, I wonder how well Sim City 4 would do on a dual G5 2 GHz with 2 GB RAM and its superfast bus. Everyone says that Sim City 4 is often slow on the P4 due to bandwidth issues.

In fact, the opposite of syberscott's words are almost true. Apple has been pushing QuartzExtreme, their GPU enhanced GUI rendering layer, for quite some time, with 10.3 set to take even more of an advantage of it than 10.2. Whereas a PC is fine as long as the 2D is reasonably fast(basically you can't buy a slow 2D card these days), Apple is going full steam with transparancy, blending, texturizing, and even flat out 3D when it comes to 10.3's fast user switch(when it switches users, it rotates said users' screens on a cube). You can still use a non-QuartzExtreme compliant card with OS X, but at the rate Apple's moving, you're getting left behind in terms of quality and performance. For an Apple at least, the desktop experience is more reliant on the GPU than nearly any PC is.
Yep. On Macs, a good 3D card makes a HUGE difference just for surfing and Word. Basically, I consider any OS X Mac without at least a 32 MB Radeon 7500 and a G3 800 (preferably G4 800) slow for even office-type app use. I am sooooo happy I have a GHz G4 with 64 MB Radeon 9000 in my laptop. The OS seems very responsive, even with dual screens. (A 16 MB Radeon would be quite slow with dual screens even with only just a few apps open - too much memory swapping on the graphics card or so I'm told.) In contrast, with a Windows XP PC, you can use a PIII 500 and ATI Rage 128 just fine. Back to the original thread though, a Geforce FX 5200 64 MB is fine for OS X though I must admit, even though I'm Canadian and don't like nVidia cards. ;) Screw the 9800 Pro... I'm not a hard core gamer - just play a little from time to time. I'd probably go for the 9600 Pro though. No wait, Doom III is coming out... Hmmm...

By the way dual screens on a TiBook with DVI to the second screen is absolutely gorgeous. I don't think I've ever seen an x86 laptop with DVI out. I don't think I've ever seen an x86 laptop with a powered Firewire port either, which is important for my external Firewire laptop hard drive, and for my iPod. I can power both of them simultaneously off the same port too.

it takes too long to open IE or Mozilla or any browser for that fact
IE is one of the slowest browsers for the Mac. It's so slow that MS finally gave up and stopped developing for it, after Safari came out. Mozilla is fugly, but it is faster than IE. Camino is based on Mozilla and looks nicer. Safari (which just went gold last week) is gorgeous and blistering fast. I'd say it's the most beautiful browser EVER created. Ironically, even IE on the Mac actually looks nicer than IE on Windows, but unfortunately it's too bloated. Office on the Mac looks better than Office on Windows too strangely enough.

BTW, for Safari, Apple hired some big names in the browser design and programming world, and used Linux's (KDE) Konquerer as the base. Furthermore they resubmitted their improvements in the code back to KDE again. It's amazing how often the *nix thing pops up, isn't it? ;)
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: Eug
Yep. On Macs, a good 3D card makes a HUGE difference just for surfing and Word. Basically, I consider any OS X Mac without at least a 32 MB Radeon 7500 and a G3 800 (preferably G4 800) slow for even office-type app use. I am sooooo happy I have a GHz G4 with 64 MB Radeon 9000 in my laptop. The OS seems very responsive, even with dual screens. (A 16 MB Radeon would be quite slow with dual screens even with only just a few apps open - too much memory swapping on the graphics card or so I'm told.) In contrast, with a Windows XP PC, you can use a PIII 500 and ATI Rage 128 just fine. Back to the original thread though, a Geforce FX 5200 64 MB is fine for OS X though I must admit, even though I'm Canadian and don't like nVidia cards. ;) Screw the 9800 Pro... I'm not a hard core gamer - just play a little from time to time. I'd probably go for the 9600 Pro though. No wait, Doom III is coming out... Hmmm...

It's funny you mention that because people running the current Panther Beta are reporting that Panter is snappier than Jag especially on older Macs. While this is no where near a scientific poll, if true it is very cool that Apple is not just enhancing the visuals in 10.3 but also streamlining it so that it is smooth running even on older machines.


Lethal

 

GonzoDaGr8

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2001
2,183
1
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Yep. On Macs, a good 3D card makes a HUGE difference just for surfing and Word. Basically, I consider any OS X Mac without at least a 32 MB Radeon 7500 and a G3 800 (preferably G4 800) slow for even office-type app use.
Hey Eug, My G3 B&W has a sad old 16mb Rage128 card in it now and I was thinking of starting in on some upgrades to it. You think I would notice a vid card upgrade more so than a processor upgrade? Any type of window scrolling(iTunes, Safari) is real laggy and notchy like it takes everything that machine has just to surf.. OSX.2.6 Btw.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,048
1,679
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It's funny you mention that because people running the current Panther Beta are reporting that Panter is snappier than Jag especially on older Macs. While this is no where near a scientific poll, if true it is very cool that Apple is not just enhancing the visuals in 10.3 but also streamlining it so that it is smooth running even on older machines.
Well, maybe that's true, but I'd hazard to guess I'd still find it slow (since I'm used to a 1 GHz G4 and Radeon 9000 64 MB).

Hey Eug, My G3 B&W has a sad old 16mb Rage128 card in it now and I was thinking of starting in on some upgrades to it. You think I would notice a vid card upgrade more so than a processor upgrade? Any type of window scrolling(iTunes, Safari) is real laggy and notchy like it takes everything that machine has just to surf.. OSX.2.6 Bt
Not sure, since my first Apple (besides by Apple II :p) was an iBook 600. How fast is your G3 anyway? 350 MHz? 450 MHz? To be quite honest I'm not sure I'd want to spend too much to upgrade a 350 MHz G3. A 32 MB Radeon as well as lots of memory would probably help a fair bit though. I found 384 MB to be the sweet spot on my iBook 600. I run 768 on my TiBook though. :)
 

GonzoDaGr8

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2001
2,183
1
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Originally posted by: Eug
It's funny you mention that because people running the current Panther Beta are reporting that Panter is snappier than Jag especially on older Macs. While this is no where near a scientific poll, if true it is very cool that Apple is not just enhancing the visuals in 10.3 but also streamlining it so that it is smooth running even on older machines.
Well, maybe that's true, but I'd hazard to guess I'd still find it slow (since I'm used to a 1 GHz G4 and Radeon 9000 64 MB).

Hey Eug, My G3 B&W has a sad old 16mb Rage128 card in it now and I was thinking of starting in on some upgrades to it. You think I would notice a vid card upgrade more so than a processor upgrade? Any type of window scrolling(iTunes, Safari) is real laggy and notchy like it takes everything that machine has just to surf.. OSX.2.6 Bt
Not sure, since my first Apple (besides by Apple II :p) was an iBook 600. How fast is your G3 anyway? 350 MHz? 450 MHz? To be quite honest I'm not sure I'd want to spend too much to upgrade a 350 MHz G3. A 32 MB Radeon as well as lots of memory would probably help a fair bit though. I found 384 MB to be the sweet spot on my iBook 600. I run 768 on my TiBook though. :)
G3 350 w/320 Ram.

since my first Apple (besides by Apple II :p)
first computer I ever touched was an Apple IIe
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
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GonzoDaGr8, you can't actually use QuartzExtreme with a PCI bus card anyhow, so the processor upgrade would be the biggest boost.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: ViRGE
GonzoDaGr8, you can't actually use QuartzExtreme with a PCI bus card anyhow, so the processor upgrade would be the biggest boost.
Yeah you can, with a hack.
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
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Well yea, but still, he could use a CPU upgrade.;)
 

GonzoDaGr8

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2001
2,183
1
0
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Well yea, but still, he could use a CPU upgrade.;)
Oh yeah, It deffinitely needs a boost in both departments, But I'm not sure that I really want to spend a ton on both upgrades right yet. I wasn't actually worried about getting QE implemented, just trying to get the system as a whole to be less laggy. All i'm using this thing for right now is d/l'ing tunes from the iTunes music store and burning CD's. Now that it is doing great..:D
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
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My best reccomendation would be to save money and get a new machine, as opposed to upgrading a G3 as old as that, as the overall design will always be holding you back. That said, if you have to pick 1 upgrade, go with the CPU first.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
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ostif.org
Come to think of it, I wonder how well Sim City 4 would do on a dual G5 2 GHz with 2 GB RAM and its superfast bus. Everyone says that Sim City 4 is often slow on the P4 due to bandwidth issues.

The problem isnt bandwidth related, the game sucks up a huge amount of memory, if you have 1GB+ of ram, it runs great.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,048
1,679
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Originally posted by: Acanthus
Come to think of it, I wonder how well Sim City 4 would do on a dual G5 2 GHz with 2 GB RAM and its superfast bus. Everyone says that Sim City 4 is often slow on the P4 due to bandwidth issues.

The problem isnt bandwidth related, the game sucks up a huge amount of memory, if you have 1GB+ of ram, it runs great.
I've heard that on some systems, even 1 GB memory isn't enough and it's still slow. I wonder if it has something to do with memory bandwidth, not just memory space.
 

dpopiz

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2001
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doesn't this kind of defeat all the work they put into making the machine extremely quiet?
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: dpopiz
doesn't this kind of defeat all the work they put into making the machine extremely quiet?
???

The bigger the heatsinks, and the better the air flow design, the slower (and quieter) the fans can run.
 

wetcat007

Diamond Member
Nov 5, 2002
3,502
0
0
Originally posted by: Eug
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Come to think of it, I wonder how well Sim City 4 would do on a dual G5 2 GHz with 2 GB RAM and its superfast bus. Everyone says that Sim City 4 is often slow on the P4 due to bandwidth issues.

The problem isnt bandwidth related, the game sucks up a huge amount of memory, if you have 1GB+ of ram, it runs great.
I've heard that on some systems, even 1 GB memory isn't enough and it's still slow. I wonder if it has something to do with memory bandwidth, not just memory space.

Last time I checked I think they still used SDPC100, I dun know if that's changed, but it really need to.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,048
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Last time I checked I think they still used SDPC100, I dun know if that's changed, but it really need to.
:confused: Are you talking about PC-100 SDR SDRAM? Because the G5 uses dual-channel DDR400 (800 MHz) if that's what you're talking about.
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,461
4
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Originally posted by: zephyrprime
Their profit margins are so high...
Their profit margins are not high at all. In the past 12 months, they've been losing money.

If they would limit the amount of MJ and LSD being provided in the Marketing and Design departments they could probably make a profit, but then again we wouldn't have stupid cheesy commercials and computers that are too pretty to actually use.