Why Intel will fail with Larrabee

[VirtualLarry]

thread

Intel is abandoning computers with older graphics chipsets for Win7, it seems.

Let's put it this way, I installed ATI Cat 9.something on my 2005-era laptop, the graphics chipset in it is still supported. And yet the laptop that I'm typing this on, has a 945 chipset/GMA950, and it's barely supported, web pages "flash" (unnecessary clearing and redrawing) with flash ads on the page, it makes reading things like the msn.com hopepage virtually impossible.

You would think that with all the netbooks sold with Atom+945 chipset, that Intel would see to it to invest some time into developing solid Win7 drivers for that chipset. But apparently, Intel considers it "too old".

If Intel's driver support for something as common as the 945 chipset is so poor, how bad is larrabee driver support going to be? And will Intel continue to update the drivers to support new DirectX standards, or will they let 1-year old hardware languish as "legacy".

 

[dguy6789]

I think you're confusing "not able to make good drivers" with "doesn't care about making good drivers". How good or bad the drivers are pretty much only depends on how badly Intel wants it to succeed. They pretty much have enough money to make anything they want and make it good if they really want it.

 

[Idontcare]

I agree with dguy6789, and will add that in addition to his valid points another consideration here is "forced obsolescence".

Did Intel fail with 945 chipset/GMA950 just because they have now decided to not continue supporting it with future driver iterations? I don't think so. They sold a ton of them for the time period in which they wanted to.

You can disagree with the business model and approach to forced obsolescence, but the cause and effect you are positing as being the progenitor of Larrabee's demise is tenuous in my opinion.

 

[taltamir]

I don't have win7 drivers for my AMD M200 southbridge (so... no audio... at least video works properly though)

 

[taltamir]

I think the op is making the point that people will refuse to buy larabee because of intel's lack of support for older chipsets... not that intel will have sub par drivers for larabee on release

 

[WaitingForNehalem]

How is this a big deal? It is just one of the many cons that come with laptops. They aren't upgradeable and you should buy them to use the current os, not future ones. If it is a desktop just put cheap video card in it.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: taltamir
I think the op is making the point that people will refuse to buy larabee because of intel's lack of support for older chipsets... not that intel will have sub par drivers for larabee on release

Sure, ok.

I also heard OCZ had crap SSD's for the first year they came out with them, and since they aren't supporting those old 1st gen drives with new firmware and trim support in Win7 next year I am going to refuse to consider OCZ's latest Indilinx-based drives (or future gen ones either) when it comes to buying their future SSD's a year from now.

I'm also never buying an Areca raid controller card again either because they sold me this POS 1280ML 2yrs ago that doesn't even have trim support in raid configs. WTF!? I know right? I am so not gonna buy their 2010 latest gen raid controller just because the stuff they sold me in 2006 didn't foresee the needs of its users in 2010.

:roll:

 

[nitromullet]

http://downloadmirror.intel.co...notes_windows7_gfx.htm

Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator Driver

The Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator Driver contains support for the following Intel® Chipsets:

· Intel (R) 945G Express Chipset

· Intel (R) 945GZ Express Chipset

· Intel (R) 945GC Express Chipset

· Intel (R) 945GT Express Chipset

· Intel (R) 946GZ Express Chipset

· Intel (R) G965 Express Chipset

· Intel (R) Q963 Express Chipset

· Intel (R) Q965 Express Chipset

· Intel (R) G31 Express Chipset

· Intel (R) G33 Express Chipset

· Intel (R) G35 Express Chipset

· Intel (R) Q33 Express Chipset

· Intel (R) Q35 Express Chipset

· Mobile Intel (R) 940GML Express Chipset

· Mobile Intel (R) 943GML Express Chipset

· Mobile Intel (R) 945GM Express Chipset

· Mobile Intel (R) 945GME Express Chipset

· Mobile Intel (R) 945GMS Express Chipset

· Mobile Intel (R) GL960 Express Chipset

· Mobile Intel (R) GLE960 Express Chipset

· Mobile Intel (R) GM965 Express Chipset

· Mobile Intel (R) GME965 Express Chipset

945 appears to be supported.

 

[shangshang]

I will wait and see how drivers development at Intel will be. I think Intel will not be as aggressive as NV nor ATI in terms of drivers updates. Just a hunch.
I'll give Larabee at least a year before turning attention to it.

 

[dflynchimp]

I'm not sure what point the OP is trying to make here. Is he insinuating that because Intel refuses to support its older chipsets properly, that it's newer chipsets will similary be crappy?

That sort of logic just doesn't fly.

 

[mmnno]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
thread

Intel is abandoning computers with older graphics chipsets for Win7, it seems.

Let's put it this way, I installed ATI Cat 9.something on my 2005-era laptop, the graphics chipset in it is still supported. And yet the laptop that I'm typing this on, has a 945 chipset/GMA950, and it's barely supported, web pages "flash" (unnecessary clearing and redrawing) with flash ads on the page, it makes reading things like the msn.com hopepage virtually impossible.

You would think that with all the netbooks sold with Atom+945 chipset, that Intel would see to it to invest some time into developing solid Win7 drivers for that chipset. But apparently, Intel considers it "too old".

If Intel's driver support for something as common as the 945 chipset is so poor, how bad is larrabee driver support going to be? And will Intel continue to update the drivers to support new DirectX standards, or will they let 1-year old hardware languish as "legacy".

Didn't we go over this already with the Windows Vista Home Basic idiocy

 

[sandorski]

It won't "Fail", they'll Sell 10's Millions. It'll Suck though, at least from Our perspective, because ATI/Nvidia will make far superior Parts that interest us. For the vast Majority who don't know what a Driver is or a Video Chip/Card is or what's the difference, they'll find the Larrabee sufficient.

 

[ilkhan]

sandorski- larrabee isn't the integrated GPU (until at least ivy bridge), larrabee is the discrete GPU thats supposed to compete with nVid/AMD.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: ilkhan
sandorski- larrabee isn't the integrated GPU (until at least ivy bridge), larrabee is the discrete GPU thats supposed to compete with nVid/AMD.

They'll make it Integrated, it will be the only way to compete. AKA, Intel doesn't have the nads to compete in Discrete Cards.

That's my Prediction anyway.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: ilkhan
sandorski- larrabee isn't the integrated GPU (until at least ivy bridge), larrabee is the discrete GPU thats supposed to compete with nVid/AMD.

They'll make it Integrated, it will be the only way to compete. AKA, Intel doesn't have the nads to compete in Discrete Cards.

That's my Prediction anyway.

Who needs nads when your cash supply with several times larger than you competitors and you can offer bundled discounts to OEMs who buy your CPU with your GPU?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: ilkhan
sandorski- larrabee isn't the integrated GPU (until at least ivy bridge), larrabee is the discrete GPU thats supposed to compete with nVid/AMD.

They'll make it Integrated, it will be the only way to compete. AKA, Intel doesn't have the nads to compete in Discrete Cards.

That's my Prediction anyway.

Who needs nads when your cash supply with several times larger than you competitors and you can offer bundled discounts to OEMs who buy your CPU with your GPU?

True, they'll make crap loads of $$. They'll just fail to compete in such a way that will interest Us. Another i750 that seemed to be leading edge when first announced, but way behind by the time it arrived.

 

[MODEL3]

Originally posted by: dguy6789
I think you're confusing "not able to make good drivers" with "doesn't care about making good drivers". How good or bad the drivers are pretty much only depends on how badly Intel wants it to succeed. They pretty much have enough money to make anything they want and make it good if they really want it.

I don't disagree with what you said, well almost.

I guess this is the second try for Intel to enter the discrete GPU business, right?

The first try was with i740 in the end of 1997 if i remember correctly, what i do remember was that after a few months you could buy the i740 a LOT cheaper than Voodoo 1, NV Riva 128, Power VR, Matrox G100.

And the performance was very good (only Voodoo1 & riva 128/ZX had better performance)
(I am not comparing VOODOO 2 or TNT becauce they launched a quarter later and they were not even on the same price level)

So although the price was right (and the quality of the driver was not that far behind Riva's 128)

why Intel failed?

My guess is that they failed becauce they could not launch new GPU models every year like their competitors did
(3Dfx & especially Nvidia, but also the others was not that far behind into releasing new models)

I guess intel wanted badly back then to succeed also.

What I'm only trying to say is that nothing is guaranteed even if Intel wants it badly.

There may be another reason to make them fail this time.

Originally posted by: sandorski
It won't "Fail", they'll Sell 10's Millions. It'll Suck though, at least from Our perspective, because ATI/Nvidia will make far superior Parts that interest us. For the vast Majority who don't know what a Driver is or a Video Chip/Card is or what's the difference, they'll find the Larrabee sufficient.

They'll make it Integrated, it will be the only way to compete. AKA, Intel doesn't have the nads to compete in Discrete Cards.

That's my Prediction anyway

that is the most interesting opinion I heard about how Intel is planning to penetrate the discrete GPU business. (although I think in the end that it will not happen, maybe a safer prediction is tactics like extreme bundle discounts in OEMs + big direct rebates to Retailers)

Sure they could do something like:

1 group/8 core GPU 59$
2 group/16 core GPU 99$
4 group/32 core GPU 199$
6 group/48 core GPU 299$

And fill in the price blanks with defect cores & lower Mhz models.

But does this guarantee a success?

 

[nenforcer]

Will larrabee even support Windows XP when it is finally released?

I would assume not since it will most likely be a high end DX10 / 11 part?

There are still a huge amount of people running Windows XP, myself included.

 

[faxon]

it would have to, but given the nature of it's arch being 95% fully programmable x86, i doubt it will be long before someone codes a bootleg driver for it. look at the omega drivers for example, they have been around since the days of 3DFX and they still keep up to date drivers for Nv and ATI cards, i doubt it would be any harder to code something similar for Larrabee

 

[nitromullet]

I don't think Intel will fail. They might not have a top performer with Larrabee, but maybe their next iteration, or the one after that.

The thing that people have to start to understand is that Intel, AMD, and NV aren't fighting for who can build the fastest cpu, gpu, or chipset; but who will control the platform. The components are just pieces of that overall fight, and while building the fastest/best helps build mindshare the real key is who can package it all the best in a solid, reliable, bundle easy to sell to the end user. Whoever can do this, controls the platform, and can make the rules. It is important for Intel that x86 remains the standard, so they need to put a stop to all this 'GPGPU nonsense' before we all realize that x86 could actually be replaced by something better if we allowed it to happen.

 

[dflynchimp]

Besides, it only makes sense that if Larrabee is truly a high end part designed to capture market share from a segment of IT computing that Intel had previously had no foot hold in, they would work extra hard to give it the allegorical spit-shine and make it as presentable as possible.

On the other hand the 945 chipset counts as legacy support because it has long since been replaced with better solutions even for current technologies. Comparing driver support between 945 adn Larrabee is about as Apples and Oranges as you can possible get.

 

[WaitingForNehalem]

Maybe my next rig will be mostly Intel.

Intel motherboard
Intel CPU
Intel GPU
Intel SSD HDD

 

[MODEL3]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
I don't think Intel will fail. They might not have a top performer with Larrabee, but maybe their next iteration, or the one after that.

The thing that people have to start to understand is that Intel, AMD, and NV aren't fighting for who can build the fastest cpu, gpu, or chipset; but who will control the platform. The components are just pieces of that overall fight, and while building the fastest/best helps build mindshare the real key is who can package it all the best in a solid, reliable, easy to sell to the end user. Whoever can do this, controls the platform, and can make the rules. It is important for Intel that x86 remains the standard, so they need to put a stop to all this 'GPGPU nonsense' before we all realize that x86 could actually be replaced by something better if we allowed it to happen.

I like how you put it.

What helps Intel's effort to control (they don't want to put a stop) the whole GPGPU prospect is that Larrabee is going to be at 45nm at launch.

Otherwise if they launch at 32nm while being not competitive with ATI & NV they would not have a chance to succeed in controlling the whole GPGPU prospect.

What perf. advantages can Intel bring with X86 type architecture GPU within the same 2 years manufacturing cycle? 1,5X? (I doubt 2X, but lets say 2X MAX)

So since ATI & NV can do now more than 1,5X per year (think what they can do if they think that the existence of their companies is at stake) they can always (in the 32nm scenario) offer something more than Intel in the competition game.

So in 32nm launch scenario Nv & ATI will have the upper hand becauce Intel will be forced to exit the gaming GPU marhet in a year or two.

Intel only needs to stay in the game for a few years (4-5), in order to take the upper hand.

 

[ilkhan]

Intel won't be "forced" into anything, they have the cash, the fabs, and the design teams to stay in as long as they desire. If Intel doesn't launch soon, they'll be replacing 45nm parts with 32nm parts really quickly. Great for Intel, good for consumers. If not they may scrap the 45nm generation all together. Which Intel might be reluctant to do, as itd decrease mind share without a shrink in 6 months.

 

[BFG10K]

Depreciated or not, the drivers for GMA have historically been poor, especially for gaming. I saw some OpenGL tests being run on one a while ago, and it was basically failing almost all of them (?unsupported?).

If Intel wants to compete in the discrete market they are going to have to compete with ATi?s and nVidia?s driver programmers, teams that have had over a decade of experience with tuning drivers for games.