Why Hawks Should Be Angry

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
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Zell Miller, the plain-spoken quasi-Democrat from Georgia, took to the Senate floor earlier this month to bemoan all the fuss about the prison abuse scandal.

"Here we go again, rushing to give aid and comfort to the enemy," he complained. "Why is it that there's more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all? Why is it that some in this country still don't get that we are at war?"

Fair questions, and given how they pinged around the Internet, ones that seemed to resonate with many Americans. But they're questions that can be answered. In fact, it's precisely the people who do "get that we are at war," in the way Miller means that -- people who believe, as does Miller, that U.S. forces cannot abandon Iraq or the wider war on terrorism -- who should be indignant over the photos and, even more, over the administration's insouciant response to the wider scandal they have exposed.

The senator is right to worry about the scandal's effect on fighting the war. Generals who should be leading troops and debating tactics are instead huddling with lawyers and testifying to Congress. NATO countries that might have supported a larger role for the alliance in Iraq after June 30 now have to be persuaded not to pull out altogether. American soldiers in Iraq shoulder an ever greater burden of suspicion, and Iraqis who might have wanted to cooperate have to think twice, and then twice more. And all this is happening as policymakers in Washington, particularly Democrats (though not standard-bearer John Kerry), increasingly favor an early departure from Iraq.

So if we could limit the damage simply by ending the "hand-wringing," as Miller suggests, that would be a wonderful thing. And if all the fuss really were over a few photos of prisoners with underwear on their heads -- if it really were, as President Bush said a week ago, a matter of a "few American troops" -- then Miller would surely be right.

But by now you'd have to have your own head in a bag to believe that a few badly trained reservists are at the core of this scandal. The Pentagon has acknowledged that 37 prisoners have died in U.S. custody across Iraq and Afghanistan, and at least 10 of the deaths were homicides by Americans. Even more frightening, none of these deaths seemed to have sparked serious investigations before publicity forced the military to confront the issue.

The International Committee of the Red Cross, we now know, has been regularly bringing evidence of ill-treatment to U.S. officials in Iraq, and was regularly rebuffed until the photos were released. In cases of people deemed to have intelligence value, the ICRC found that harsh treatment was "systematic." Even for ordinary prisoners, ill-treatment was "frequent." It "went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered as a practice tolerated by the CF [coalition forces]."

It's the hawks in this town, the Zell Millers, who ought to be most distressed by this evidence and by the president's efforts to wish it away. Of all the missed opportunities since Baghdad fell, surely this is one of the most heartbreaking. Iraqi detainees might have been going home to their families and saying, as German POWs did so many decades ago, that these American soldiers are for real, that they treated us humanely -- that maybe they mean what they say about liberation, not occupation. Instead, the United States is reduced to pleading that it's not as bad as al Qaeda and obfuscating the reality that policies adopted in the White House helped lead to this breakdown of law and discipline.

Bush could have responded differently. He could have embraced the heroes such as Spec. Joseph Darby, who sounded the alarm; William J. Kimbro, the Navy dog handler who refused to sic his dogs on prisoners; Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, who wrote an honest report. He could have apologized to the people of Iraq, appointed an investigator from outside the chain of command, pledged to abide by the Geneva Conventions. Instead, he opted for a Nixonian strategy of damage containment, and a summer of piecemeal disclosure.

Who pays the price for the president's dishonesty? Soldiers such as Maj. Gen. Peter Chiarelli and his troops, who, as The Post's Scott Wilson reported last week, are out in Baghdad's slums, fighting insurgents one hour and fixing sewers the next. The prison scandal and the administration's failed response haven't doomed those efforts, but they've lengthened the odds. They've given aid and comfort to the enemy.
 

TheBDB

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2002
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Why is it that there's more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all?

Because we are Americans and they are terrorists. I expect terrorists to do stuff like cut off people's heads. I expect better from my brothers in uniform.
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
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Originally posted by: TheBDB
Why is it that there's more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all?

Because we are Americans and they are terrorists. I expect terrorists to do stuff like cut off people's heads. I expect better from my brothers in uniform.

But you expect NO responsibility from the terrorists.. Because they are known bad people? That makes no sense..
 

Wag

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
8,288
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But you expect NO responsibility from the terrorists.. Because they are known bad people? That makes no sense..
Actually, that makes no sense.

I didn't see BDB saying that the terrorists shouldn't take responsibility for their actions, what I saw was that he expects our guys (and gals) to be held to a higher standard.
 

wkabel23

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: TheBDB
Why is it that there's more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all?

Because we are Americans and they are terrorists. I expect terrorists to do stuff like cut off people's heads. I expect better from my brothers in uniform.

Well put:beer:
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
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Originally posted by: TheBDB
Why is it that there's more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all?

Because we are Americans and they are terrorists. I expect terrorists to do stuff like cut off people's heads. I expect better from my brothers in uniform.
:beer:

My thoughts exactly. Well said.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
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Originally posted by: TheBDB
Why is it that there's more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all?

Because we are Americans and they are terrorists. I expect terrorists to do stuff like cut off people's heads. I expect better from my brothers in uniform.

If saving my "brothers in uniform" means that a few scumbags have their feelings hurt or miss a meal or some sleep then big f---ing deal. The point you overlook is that the international outrage over the Abu Ghraid garbage FAR outweighed the murder of Nicholas Berg, even today. Abu Ghraib continues, but no one mentions Zarqawi and his murder, broadcast on the Terrorist News Network.

Anyone who was in the wrong is being pursued and prosecuted by the Army, and I'm sure there are Iraqis stepping forward to help that prosecution. Is there ANYONE helping to catch Zarqawi? Haven't heard of anything, have you?

Let's direct the righteous indignation to the proper sources and consider the motivation behind the actions as well.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Originally posted by: AndrewR
Is there ANYONE helping to catch Zarqawi? Haven't heard of anything, have you?
You'd think the Iraqis would express their appreciation of our liberating them by informing on these Terrorists..well appearently not.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
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the two week attention span/news cycle has passed...nobody cares about Abu Ghraib anymore.....

move along..nothing to see.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Originally posted by: TheBDB
Why is it that there's more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all?

Because we are Americans and they are terrorists. I expect terrorists to do stuff like cut off people's heads. I expect better from my brothers in uniform.

Exactly!

I can't echo that enough and that's exactly the reasoning behind Sens. McCain and Biden in their recent statements that we must take the higher moral ground here. We must treat the prisoners better than they deserve.

The Bush fans seem to think it's ok if we're just not as bad as Saddam. We shouldn't even be in the position to put ourselves up for comparison!!
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
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If saving my "brothers in uniform" means that a few scumbags have their feelings hurt or miss a meal or some sleep then big f---ing deal.

If it's a big f---ing deal, why do you try to minimize it like that? Why couldn't you have said..."If saving my "brothers in uniform" means that a few, possibly innocent, Iraqis get beaten to death, or have a broom handle shoved up their ass then big f---ing deal? Doesn't really carry the same weight, does it?

Oh, and many members have asked you about your previous thread here.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
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Originally posted by: Gaard
If saving my "brothers in uniform" means that a few scumbags have their feelings hurt or miss a meal or some sleep then big f---ing deal.

If it's a big f---ing deal, why do you try to minimize it like that? Why couldn't you have said..."If saving my "brothers in uniform" means that a few, possibly innocent, Iraqis get beaten to death, or have a broom handle shoved up their ass then big f---ing deal? Doesn't really carry the same weight, does it?

Oh, and many members have asked you about your previous thread here.

Blatantly criminal and over-the-top activities were not included in my original statement. While you read my statement as minimizing those, I intended it as encompassing those activities with which I did not see a problem -- sleep deprivation, minimal denial of food, degradation. Those same activities, which have been used and reported widely prior to this conflict, are now being assigned "war crimes" labels which to me minimizes the true war crimes and crimes against humanity as perpetrated by the likes of some of those subject to the "war crimes" of the American forces in Iraq right now (ie., detainees).
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
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Originally posted by: Gaard
If saving my "brothers in uniform" means that a few scumbags have their feelings hurt or miss a meal or some sleep then big f---ing deal.

If it's a big f---ing deal, why do you try to minimize it like that? Why couldn't you have said..."If saving my "brothers in uniform" means that a few, possibly innocent, Iraqis get beaten to death, or have a broom handle shoved up their ass then big f---ing deal? Doesn't really carry the same weight, does it?

Oh, and many members have asked you about your previous thread here.


Just for clarification, Gaard, If you don't agree with removing saddam from Iraq, and ending the murder and rape and torture he condoned, then why is it such a big deal to you??

It appears to be a view of convenience rather than out of concern (from my side of the fence).

:confused:
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
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Actually my friend, I'm not sure how long you've been posting in P&N, but my stance has always been, not that Saddam wasn't scum, but that the reasons we were given to support the removal of the scum were bogus.