Why dont we just wait for the Mustang?

HardwareAddicted

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2000
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I was just wondering why a guy just doesnt wait for the Mustang and maybe even get ddr at the same time...

If I gotta get a new mb anyway....

Any comments on this...how long do you think we will have to wait?

 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
17
81
supposedly the chipsets will come out in october. I wouldn't expect board until november considering the boards need to be built, etc. The mustang isn't supposed to come out till 2001 isn't it? I'd think at least december for the mustang
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
The answer is simple there is always faster ,better models coming out,don`t think it will stop with DDR & Mustang if you do you are in for a big shock ,just be happy with what you buy at the time & remember there are greater things on the horizon this is progress.

:)
 

Arcadian

Member
Aug 23, 2000
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There are 7 weeks left before the end of October, and AMD claims to have their 1.4GHz Mustang (Palomino for Desktop) out by then. That seems pretty agressive. I just went to pricewatch and I could only find 8 places where the 1.1GHz Athlon is sold, and only three places claimed that they had stock. The Pentium III 1GHz even has more than that (I counted 12 places, with 3 that claimed in stock). You saw what happened when Intel released the 1.13GHz Pentium III before they were ready to do so.... I'm not claiming this means that AMD will fail to deliver, but it does sort of suggest that they are strained for capacity at the high end, and increasing 300MHz in 7 weeks seems a little unreasonable. I think hans007 is more correct with his December estimate. Besides, the Mustang (Palomino) will need a platform, so it or the 760 chipset may be delayed to make sure the two coincide with each other.

Also, some might say AMD will use a half shrink of .15u to get the high speeds that they claim. If that is true, then supply will definately be small. That's because AMD only has two fabs, and though they are monstrous in size, AMD is using them to their fullest to push Athlons on the .18u process. If they do have extra fab room for .15u, they won't have that much, which means a small supply. My .02 cents.
 

Goi

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
6,754
4
91
I AM waiting...but probably not for the Mustang, but rather for the Palomino...currently have a C566@850MHz, 256MB PC133 SDRAM and an overclocked V3 3000, which is plenty fast until the Palomino comes out...with DDR support...Mmmn...tasty!
 

cdrakejr

Senior member
Apr 13, 2000
354
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Comparing the availibility of the TBird 1.1GHz with the PIII 1GHz is something like comparing apples and oranges. The PIII 1GHz was announced 6 months ago and you are just beginning to see any modest availibility; the TBird 1.1GHz was announced 3 WEEKS ago and already has similiar availibility. Now if you want to compare apples and apples, the TBird 1GHz (which was announced only a few days before the PIII 1GHz) has 42 listings compared to the 12 for PIII. While I didn't count all the "In stock" listings there are a few more than 3 :Q

HardwareAddicted: You might find this roadmap and write-up about the Mustang, Palomino and Morgan interesting.
http://www.viahardware.com/palomino.htm

I agree that we probably won't see any DDR boards readily available before late this year, but if you wanted to compromise the Palomino will run on a Via KT133 motherboard with SDRAM according to the article.:D
 

HardwareAddicted

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2000
1,351
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That just plain ROCKS!!
Thanks guys, that helps.

It would seem that getting a Duron/AbitRaid system now would be ok,
as long as we could get a Palomino for the same board when they come out.(bios willing of course)

It would seem that a good DDR solution including the DDR memory
might be a ways off for now.
Longer than I want to wait for now anyway.

Thanks for the link cdrakejr.

H-A
 

Arcadian

Member
Aug 23, 2000
30
0
0
cdrakejr, it wasn't my intention to do an apples to orange comparison. I think you can still draw a lot of conclusions from it. The reason I used the Pentium III 1GHz in my comparison was because many people complain about its availability. Granted it has been on the release list far longer than the 1.1GHz Athlon, but the Athlon hasn't had to compete with OEMs on the same level of volume as the 1GHz Pentium III has.

But this is besides the point. I was talking about Mustang and Palomino availability. I have read the artical you posted before, and it seems to suggest some advanced features being added to the Athlon core. While it sounds great on paper, think how great the Thunderbird Athlon sounded compared to how it actually performed. In terms of validation, it should require a decent amount given the changes that AMD promises. This may point to a delayed release date, but even assuming that AMD makes it in October, how fast will it take them to ramp up production?

If AMD is continuing to use .18u to produce Mustang/Palomino, I don't know how easy it will be for them to reach 1.4GHz. Especially since it has taken 3 weeks for 1.1GHz Athlon to ramp up (and it still hasn't ramped up that great, yet). Every time AMD adds another 100MHz, I expect ramp up time to increase, which has been the current trend.

Like I said, if AMD uses the .15u half shrink to speed up the new core, then they may not have the fab space to manufacture high volumes. I know how angry people have been with Intel over their "paper launches... I'm wondering if they'll feel the same way over Mustang/Palomino. But, this is still speculation. Though I'm curious how you feel about these arguments, cdrakejr, because although AMD has done well with production until now, they will have many tall orders to fill later this year when they release three new processors....
 

bryan2010

Member
Jul 22, 2000
146
0
0
Why not wait for this, or this? With things changing so fast, you have to take the pung sometimes...
Bryan
 

cdrakejr

Senior member
Apr 13, 2000
354
0
0
Arcadian,

I still don't really understand your ramping issue, and would post more but have got to get to bed "early" for once.:)

You might find this article, which was just posted, interesting. It does discuss some of the issues you bring up:

http://www.penstarsys.com/editor/Today/amd2/index.html

One piece of info he writes is that Microsoft is planning to release software to support the Hammer at the same time it is released next year. Now if you want to talk about someone who never is on time, Microsoft might be the hold-up for both AMD and Intel's 64bit plans.

By the way, I really appreciate the civilized posts. Makes the board a pleasure, unlike a few others I can think of. Thanks! :D
 

Arcadian

Member
Aug 23, 2000
30
0
0
Thanks for the complement, cdrakejr.

I read your article. It was pretty interesting. Of course it all sounds great on paper, and the author certainly puts a spin on everything so as to put AMD's future in the best light possible. I think if you were to read a similar article on Intel's future, you would have an equally good outlook in that direction. Fortunately or unfortunateky, however, Intel usually likes to keep secret the plans in developement.

AMD certainly promisses a lot, but as the article admits, they have made many mistakes in the past. Even Intel has shown the public that it makes mistakes. Therefore, AMD's new record of success isn't guarenteed to follow them forever. To put things in all fairness, AMD can certainly do everything they say they will. To put things more realistically though, they have been very lucky to ride their flagship product into excellence, but the number of achievements they promis will be in store may be more difficult for them than they think.

In terms of their 760 chipset, I have no doubt that the UP version is on time. It won't be hard for AMD to catch up in terms of features like AGP4x and ATA/100. Being able to support DDR 266 is going to be a very difficult task however. I have heard of difficulties with DDR 200 electric properties. I immagine DDR 266 will be even harder. Not to mention that AMD is planning on creating 2 point-to-point interfaces for their MP version of the chipset, which requires some very advanced techniques to keep cache coherancy between processors.

Intel tried putting too many features into one chipset once. It was called the i820, and we know the issues with that board. The performance of Rambus on the i820 was stifled because of electrical limitations on the board (Rambus requires a certain amount logic to implement itself efficiently; the i820 had to compromise because of electrical limitations). Perhaps the 760 will follow the same fate, since AMD is trying to accomplish so much in so little a time.

The artical mentioned a lot about fab allocation, and it seems that the Austin fab creates processors below 900MHz (including Duron), while the Dresden fab creates the 900MHz and above speed grades with copper technology.

The Muastang and Palomino chips will certainly be using copper, which means they will have to be manufactured in Dresden. The artical suggests the fab still has room to grow, and AMD certainly wouldn't want to sacrifice their other processors being manufactured. Therefore, the volume for Mustang and Palomino will depend on how much room AMD can create in their #1 fab. Personally, I am scepticle that high volumes can be produced with limited space, but maybe AMD will surprise me.

I figured that Microsoft would eventually announce plans for an x86-64 based OS (they wouldn't miss a business opportunity like that), but I have a hard time believing that they will have the resources to finish the OS in less than a year. Granted, they could have begun developement long ago, but since AMD recently released the x86-64 spec, I somehow doubt that Microsoft had exclusive information for too long before anyone else.

Besides, Microsofts long record of release pushbacks would suggest that a brand new operating system would take more than a year to finish (though early builds will probably be ready for the Hammer tape out). Microsoft spent years creating the IA-64 version of Windows... granted that IA-64 is far more complex. But, Intel gave Microsoft a lot of help, especially in the compiler arena. AMD does not have the compiler gurus that Intel has, so Microsoft will have to do a lot more work themselves. This could impact the release date.

I also find the rumor that Apple would use the Athlons extremely hard to believe. First, OS X is far into developement, and it isn't likely that an x86 port could or would be done at this time. Second, the architectual implications of an x86 processor in a mac system would require a major redesign of the entire chipset. The validation would be tremendous, since compatibility would have to be maintained. I don't see this happening in the next couple of years.

But, the article did provide another angle to the future of the industry. Thanks again for the link, cdrakejr.
 

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