Why don't we all drive diesel cars? Or at most diesel/electric hybrids?

[fuzzybabybunny]

Am I missing something obvious here? The way that I see it:

1. We want a fuel that's better for the environment.

2. We want to keep our current driving range on our cars.

3. We want to be able to fill up quickly.

4. We don't want to completely overhaul our refilling stations.

5. We want a renewable fuel source.

6. We want fuel relatively cheaply.

Diesel already fits all of these requirements.

Gasoline fulfills 4 of them.

Electric fulfills 3 of them.

A Diesel / Electric hybrid would fulfill all of them and then some.

Diesel:

1. We want a fuel that's better for the environment - I'm sure with the right scrubbers the emissions can be decreased to acceptable levels

2. We want to keep our current driving range on our cars - driving range would be even more than gasoline

3. We want to be able to fill up quickly - we can fill up 400-mile's worth of range in less than two minutes at the pump

4. We don't want to completely overhaul our refilling stations - gas stations already pump diesel

5. We want a renewable fuel source - diesel can be made from cheap, hardy, fast-growing biological materials like switchgrass

6. We want fuel relatively cheaply - Diesel can be made cheaply as well.

Diesel / Electric Hybrid:

1. We want a fuel that's better for the environment - Electric has no emissions. I'm sure with the right scrubbers the diesel emissions can be decreased to acceptable levels.

2. We want to keep our current driving range on our cars - Use all-electric for 100% of your around-town driving. When out of charge, driving range would be the same as a regular diesel car.

3. We want to be able to fill up quickly - with current battery tech there is no possible way in hell to charge up 400-mile's worth of electrical energy in 2 minutes. You would have to do a complete battery swap if you wanted your range "refilled" in less than 5 minutes. With a hybrid, we can fill up 400-mile's worth of range in less than two minutes at the diesel pump.

4. We don't want to completely overhaul our refilling stations - with all-electric, you would have to completely overhaul gas stations with hookups and even increase inventory space if you're stocking and swapping out entire batteries. Plus you'd have to standardize battery sizes of all cars for any kind of efficient swapping. Liquid conforms to the form factor of its container. With a hybrid you can just fill up with diesel at gas stations with zero conversion of the gas station.

5. We want a renewable fuel source - Electricity can be renewable. Diesel can be made from cheap, hardy, fast-growing biological materials like switchgrass. So both sources are possibly renewable.

6. We want fuel relatively cheaply - Electricity is dirt cheap. Diesel can be made cheaply as well.

 

[LTC8K6]

Diesel engines and fuel are still too expensive, imo.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Diesel engines and fuel are still too expensive, imo.

How?

2013 VW Golf 2.0L TDI 2dr Hatchback - (2.0L 4-cyl. Turbo Diesel 6-speed Automated Manual)

30/42 mpg (34 combined)

2013 VW Gold 2.5L PZEV 2dr Hatchback - (2.5L 5-cyl. 6-speed Automatic)

24/41 mpg (26 combined)

34 / 26 = 1.308 - The diesel is 30% more fuel efficient than the gas.

San Jose, CA:

Gas: $3.519
Diesel: $4.108

4.108 / 3.519 = 1.16 - Diesel is only 16% more than gas.

Diesel is still cheaper.

 

[LTC8K6]

Hatchback (starting at $18,095)
Diesel (starting at $24,235

How is your break even looking?

 

[LTC8K6]

There is also sometimes additional maintenance with a diesel, such as greater oil capacity, or DEF tank refills, or water separators or a DPF replacement if you keep it a long time.

Personally though, I want a Grand Cherokee diesel despite the fact that it makes no economic sense to me. :biggrin:

You have to make a judgement call for your own situation as to whether it makes sense for you.

 

[tortillasoup]

Diesel fuel has higher energy density than gasoline so when a diesel gets better fuel economy, it isn't as much as it would appear. Diesel engines are expensive, don't lend well to the start stop cycle, the fuel is expensive and in short supply, they're dirtier (Tier 2 Bin 5 vs Tier 2 Bin 3 for PZEV Prius), diesel is less common, and hybrids can work better.

 

[redhotiron2004]

Diesel is cheaper than gasoline here in india. But, diesel engines are costlier. Which puts the cost efficiency at almost the same level.

Also, hybrids are way too costly. It's components won't be available everywhere. Which makes it difficult to repair in case of emergency.

There are better alternative that can be utilized. Like I beleive that a tri hybrid of diesel, electric and solar cells would work amazingly well.

You can drive outside while your electric batteries would keep on getting recharged on the go through solar. With no additional infratectural requirements for solar.

How about hydrogen fuel cells. They are available and much better than all other technologies combined.

The problem with adapting these technologies is the lack of political will. And the lack of revenues and bribe money from renewable sources for the government officials. You have no idea how much non renewable lobby pays the government to supress the renewable initiatives.

So, until the year 2030, when the oil reserves would start to dwindle. There is less hope of a full fledged renewable support from the government or political class.

 

[LTC8K6]

Solar cells on a car will never amount to enough power to do much.

Hydrogen is still far away from being viable.

Natural gas is nearly perfect, but gets little play.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Hatchback (starting at $18,095)
Diesel (starting at $24,235

How is your break even looking?

That's because we're not focusing enough resources on developing the technology to bring the price down. Is there a physical reason why the costs are that much higher? Do you have to utilize a very rare resource in order to make a diesel system or something? A more complicated production process can always be made more efficient.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Diesel is cheaper than gasoline here in india. But, diesel engines are costlier. Which puts the cost efficiency at almost the same level.

Also, hybrids are way too costly. It's components won't be available everywhere. Which makes it difficult to repair in case of emergency.

There are better alternative that can be utilized. Like I beleive that a tri hybrid of diesel, electric and solar cells would work amazingly well.

You can drive outside while your electric batteries would keep on getting recharged on the go through solar. With no additional infratectural requirements for solar.

How about hydrogen fuel cells. They are available and much better than all other technologies combined.

The problem with adapting these technologies is the lack of political will. And the lack of revenues and bribe money from renewable sources for the government officials. You have no idea how much non renewable lobby pays the government to supress the renewable initiatives.

So, until the year 2030, when the oil reserves would start to dwindle. There is less hope of a full fledged renewable support from the government or political class.

No way for solar or electricity to be a viable source.

Break it down into simple physics. How many units of energy (kilojoules) are required to move a car a certain distance? How many kJs can a solar panel provide? How many kJs does a ray of light over a certain area over a certain amount of time contain? How many kJs of energy can a battery pack store?

How would you refill fuel cells quickly at a station? What are the conversion costs to allow all these existing gas stations to refill hydrogen? How do you create the hydrogen?

The same questions for natural gas.

 

[LTC8K6]

That's because we're not focusing enough resources on developing the technology to bring the price down. Is there a physical reason why the costs are that much higher? Do you have to utilize a very rare resource in order to make a diesel system or something? A more complicated production process can always be made more efficient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine

The wiki entry goes over the diesel pretty well and discusses it's advantages and disadvantages.

 

[natto fire]

I guess this thread will be a meeting place of all the less technically intelligent posters in this forum. You all have at it, and by all means discount the superiority of diesel ICE and electricity. Lets all eschew the pure torque of diesel and electric propulsion. It is not what the few remaining trains are using or anything.

As pointed out, it is not a superior fuel and still has emission troubles.

The person who shunned hydrogen fuel cell should read a newspaper, although not the most reputable source.

 

[alpineranger]

The reasons are more practical and economic than technical.

First off, diesel hybrids have been built:
http://www.volvocars.com/us/top/abo...hicles/xc60-plug-in-hybrid/pages/default.aspx

Hybrid cars involve extra components, which costs more. Diesel engines cost more than gas. So a diesel hybrid will cost more than a gas hybrid or a diesel non hybrid, ceteres paribus. Most consumers are quite price conscious when it comes to cars, and I doubt you'd find many willing to pay the diesel hybrid premium.

A few other things:

Diesel is available at relatively few filling stations, especially in areas not frequented by trucks or farm equipment.

Diesel engines tend to be very heavy. Besides the fuel economy penalty, there is a performance penalty.

Diesel engines tend to have a significant amount of NVH in operation. Again, not something that many people want to pay for.

Diesel engines can have difficulty starting in cold weather. Hybrids often start/stop their engines a lot, and that cold weather also negatively affects battery capacity.

Two of diesel engine efficiency advantages come from: 1)better theoretical efficiency as a function of compression ratio, 2)reduced pumping losses vs operating at light throttle in gas engines. Both of these tends to be minimized in gas engine hybrids in practice - the former due to the common use of the atkinson cycle, and the latter due operating the engine almost exclusively in a high load, medium rpm region where pumping losses are minimal. Bottom line is that the difference between a non hybrid gas and a non hybrid diesel in an automotive application will become much smaller when comparing two such hybrids.

 

[Ancalagon44]

That's because we're not focusing enough resources on developing the technology to bring the price down. Is there a physical reason why the costs are that much higher? Do you have to utilize a very rare resource in order to make a diesel system or something? A more complicated production process can always be made more efficient.

Remember that diesel engines are far more popular in other countries than in the US. For some reason, diesel is not popular in the states.

What I mean is that there has still been a lot of investment into cleaner and more efficient diesel engines, despite the lack of interest from the States. This is because Europe is a good market for them. So, I dont know if as much research is done into them as gasoline/petrol engines, but there has been a fair amount.

Also some of the research done into engines will benefit both types of engine - ie research into turbochargers.

 

[redhotiron2004]

No way for solar or electricity to be a viable source.

Break it down into simple physics. How many units of energy (kilojoules) are required to move a car a certain distance? How many kJs can a solar panel provide? How many kJs does a ray of light over a certain area over a certain amount of time contain? How many kJs of energy can a battery pack store?

How would you refill fuel cells quickly at a station? What are the conversion costs to allow all these existing gas stations to refill hydrogen? How do you create the hydrogen?

The same questions for natural gas.

Solar energy could make the fuel consumption optimum. It won't replace the electric battery completely. It could on a good day can save or increase your total efficiency by more than 10-15%. Which is pretty good.

And solar cars have already been invented. There was cross country race competition for solar cars(google that. You would be amazed how advanced solar cars have become).

Diesel is a fossil fuel. And nomatter what anyone says, it still is a dirty fuel. And not sustainable for a long time and not renewable in a short time.

Even if diesel can be made out of plants. They still take time to grow.

There are huge subsides for these fossil fuels and negligible support by government for renewable sources in india. Hydrogen fuel cells and many other have huge potential.

It's true that infrastructure needs to be developed. But, it have to be done ultimately. And would cost much less in the long run.

And Government intervention and political will is the only hurdle for cheaper and cleaner fuel alternatives. But, no government around the world would do that as it's one of the biggest source of revenue for them whether it's USA or it's India. It's one and the same thing. You certainly don't expect your government to give away such a huge source of revenue just like that. Do you(sarcastic)?

 

[Ancalagon44]

I'm excited for algae based biofuels - they have created algae that take in sunlight and carbon dioxide, and produce biodiesel. You dont get much more eco friendly than that!

 

[alpineranger]

Remember that diesel engines are far more popular in other countries than in the US. For some reason, diesel is not popular in the states.

What I mean is that there has still been a lot of investment into cleaner and more efficient diesel engines, despite the lack of interest from the States. This is because Europe is a good market for them. So, I dont know if as much research is done into them as gasoline/petrol engines, but there has been a fair amount.

Also some of the research done into engines will benefit both types of engine - ie research into turbochargers.

"For some reason" is not that complicated or mysterious:
Federal gas tax on diesel is about a third higher than it is for gas.
In europe, diesel and diesel powered cars enjoy favorable taxes, relative to gas.
In addition, for a significant amount of time in the recent past (coinciding with the rise of diesel popularity in europe) europe had very lax emissions allowances for cars, especially relative to California standards. While california standards are not the same as federal standards, the market for california emissions compliant cars is very large (and extends beyond california, to other states that adopt california emissions standards). With the high sulfur diesel fuel available at the time, it was not possible to meet those standards.

So on one hand you have europe, where people have significant tax incentives to buy diesel cars, which are readily availble, and on the other hand, you have the US, where diesel cars cost more, diesel fuel costs more, and few to no diesel cars were available. There are other reasons, but these are some of the more significant ones.

 

[alpineranger]

That's because we're not focusing enough resources on developing the technology to bring the price down. Is there a physical reason why the costs are that much higher? Do you have to utilize a very rare resource in order to make a diesel system or something? A more complicated production process can always be made more efficient.

Diesel engines simply cost more to build.

Modern diesels require heavy duty blocks to withstand the higher pressures of diesel.
Modern diesels are all turbocharged
Modern diesels use super high pressure fuel systems requiring expensive precision fuel pumps and injectors
Modern diesels have sophisticated emissions control systems with particulate filters, selective catalytic reduction, large catalysts (diesels inherently run lean, which is a recipe for massive NOx production).

All these things cost extra money.

They are represent massive R&D investment in modern diesel technology. It can generally all be amortized over worldwide sales of the same powertrains. So to say there isn't enough money invested in diesel technology is very far from the truth.

Old fashioned diesels, without all the emissions equipment and turbos, and common rail fuel injection, are simple machines and can be made cheaply. They also often run poorly, are ridiculously slow and very dirty. Have you ever driven an old Mercedes 240D, or VW diesel rabbit? I've been in both, and equivalent gas cars of the time were much easier to live with.

 

[nerp]

Where I live, diesel costs about $4/gal and regular unleaded (which I can put in my car) is $3.30 gallon. I get 30 mpg average in my 2-ton tank of a car that gets me to 60mph in 6 seconds (about) and I can pump at 99.9 percent of gas stations in the country. In addition, the car I drive is the car I want and there is no diesel version of it. In fact, if I were to limit myself to diesel sedans, none of what's on the market appeals to me or is worth the money being charged in terms of what I need out of a car. For the price premium of diesel, I'd be buying a higher horsepower gas-based model instead because I want performance and style over fuel economy.

I do more important things for the environment such as driving less in general, composting, not dumping fertilizer and pesticides on my lawn, eating organic foods, shopping locally, not going to big box stores, donating to charity, using a high efficiency hot water heater and appliances, mulching my leaves instead of bagging them, not eating junk food and eating more vegetables as a result producing less waste, not watering my lawn and mowing the grass taller, etc. Burning diesel instead of gas really doesn't add up in my book.

 

[michal1980]

Why didn't you buy a diesel car? You just bought a new car, and did not put your money in on a diesel.

 

[Eureka]

Solar energy could make the fuel consumption optimum. It won't replace the electric battery completely. It could on a good day can save or increase your total efficiency by more than 10-15%. Which is pretty good.

And solar cars have already been invented. There was cross country race competition for solar cars(google that. You would be amazed how advanced solar cars have become).

All politics aside, I don't think solar energy can have that much of an effect.

I think the average number thrown around is 1000W for every square meter for direct sunlight (just pure energy). Even with no conversion losses, assume your car has about 8 square meters of surface area. At 8kW, with perfect conversion, that's only 10.7 HP. Basically your solar panels can, in a perfect world, output only 10.7 HP. Actual conversion ratios are around 10-15%, so realistically we're only going to see 1200W, or 1.6 HP. Which is basically nothing for a 150+ HP car.

I'm pretty sure regenerative braking produces more power than that. A car just doesn't have enough surface area to make solar energy viable.

 

[Kaido]

1. Big Oil has a pretty tight grip on the industry. They put gas everywhere; diesel access is much more limited, although it is now readily available in my area in recent years. Of the gas stations around me that have diesel, they almost always have only one pump, and a lot of them are combo pumps with a regular gas nozzle attached to the other side, so you still have to wait in line for gas cars.

2. Diesel is more expensive up front. The cars are consistently more expensive than the gas versions and the fuel is more expensive than regular octane. That means you pay more every time you fill up, regardless of the long-term savings associated with having higher MPG. Your car is more expensive and your gas is more expensive, which means that your car takes out more of your paycheck.

3. You are limited in your selection of cars. VW, Audi, Chevy Cruze, some trucks, etc. You aren't going to find a new Subaru in America with diesel.

4. The old cars had glowplugs & you had to let them startup for a minute or three, especially in winter, although the new ones skip that. So if you're buying an old one, you usually can't just start up & go, which a lot of consumers can't understand. But you have to have a urea tank on the new ones like the VW Passat, which requires a fluid change every 10,000 miles, which can cost upwards of $50.

5. Diesel-electric hybrids are really expensive. Diesel cars & fuel are already expensive; diesel-electric hybrids are even more expensive. Don't get me wrong; I'd be the first in line to buy one because I think that'd be a killer combination, but it all comes down to economics. If you're rich, you can buy whatever you want, but most people are not, so they have to count where their dollars are going more carefully.

So somewhat limited fuel availability, more expensive cars, more expensive fuel, fewer choices of car models, more (expensive) maintenance involved are a few of the reasons why they're not widely-adopted. I love diesel and I think they're great and I would love a diesel-electric hybrid, but I'd also really like a Kia Soul or Subaru Forester, neither of which are offered in diesel (or hybrid, for that matter) in America. Plus, my wife's Honda Civic gets 40 MPG on the highway, was budget-friendly, uses regular gas, available everywhere, and doesn't have a complex battery hybrid system that I have to worry about. It literally costs half the price of my Volvo to run on a weekly basis ($39 average fillup vs. $84 average fillup).

Please let me know when I can buy a 2015 Subaru Forester diesel-electric hybrid in stick-shift :awe:

 

[Kaido]

All politics aside, I don't think solar energy can have that much of an effect.

I think the average number thrown around is 1000W for every square meter for direct sunlight (just pure energy). Even with no conversion losses, assume your car has about 8 square meters of surface area. At 8kW, with perfect conversion, that's only 10.7 HP. Basically your solar panels can, in a perfect world, output only 10.7 HP. Actual conversion ratios are around 10-15%, so realistically we're only going to see 1200W, or 1.6 HP. Which is basically nothing for a 150+ HP car.

I'm pretty sure regenerative braking produces more power than that. A car just doesn't have enough surface area to make solar energy viable.

I've considered an electric car with a home solar system, but that doesn't really make much sense either unless you're rich and you just want it. I'm not home during the day to take advantage of residential solar charging, so the solar panels would have to charge a battery at home, and then that battery would have to charge my car at night.

Or I'd have to do the energy credit thing where I sell my generated electricity back to the grid at wholesale prices, and then buy it back at retail prices at night to charge up my car. A battery would be better in the event of a power outage, but those are rare and hardly every goes out for longer than a day. In the past 10+ years of living in Connecticut, we've only had the power go out twice for longer than a day or two.

Plus a lot of people park in garages, so they wouldn't even get the benefit of having a solar panel on their cars. What I would like to see is a super-efficient HVAC system for cars that could run off a solar roof panel, so the car could stay cool all day long - but that's really more of a convenience thing, and I don't think I'd want a cooling (or heating) system running all day long in my car. Plus it would be useless at night anyway.

 

[LTC8K6]

Modern diesels still have glow plugs and a "wait" light. It is a shorter wait than it used to be, though.

 

[JTsyo]

Each barrel of oil can be turned into some diesel and some gas. If all vehicles used the only one of those, then you could only run a few vehicles and the price of the fuel would increase.