why don't they make tiny engines with forced induction?

[BlahBlahYouToo]

like a 1 liter with a couple of turbos slapped on.
less weight, better fuel economy... more complexity and moving parts. is it worth it?

 

[Arkaign]

The problem with setups like that is that the turbos can't do much but multiply existing power by a certain % on a section of the powerband. Because they do little at lower rpms (unless they are low-boost turbos set to engage earlier), that 1L engine would be producing precious little torque and hp until the turbos got going, and with only 1L to start with, wouldn't get to a very high number on any production vehicle.

Lots of aftermarket folks do turbos on the 1300cc/1.3L Hayabusa, ending up with ~400hp or more, but that's a pretty special scenario, and it needs to rev to infinity to get that power. Reliability probably isn't good enough to sell to folks expecting to get at least 100k trouble-free miles out of the drivetrain with only ordinary maintenance.

There are a number of little European cars with 1.3L/1.4L turbo motors, usually producing 90-150hp, and they do pretty well, but they are *very* small cars.

I do think something in the Smart car vein would do well if they actually engineered it to get decent fuel economy. Getting worse fuel economy than a Honda Fit does not inspire confidence, although the European smart cars with Diesel motors fare much butter.

 

[KDKPSJ]

I believe you can find quite number of cars in Europe/Japan/Korea with less than 1L engine with quite advanced tech. But in US, such small car with such small engine just wouldn't fit anywhere unless for buyers in NYC, as driving distance and road condition are quite different from those in Europe. Even myself (who came from the country where small/economy car is major player, S. Korea), I can't come up with a good reasoning to buy small engine car in US unless I drive 100% city.

 

[jhu]

in europe, vw sells golfs with a 1.4 L twin-charger engine. it's a little tiny for a 2900 lb car.

the main reason we don't see them here in the usa is that our country doesn't tax the crap out of larger displacement engines.

 

[CRXican]

Sub 2.0L cars are quite common in Europe.

 

[fstime]

Originally posted by: CRXican
Sub 2.0L cars are quite common in Europe.

Anything over 2.0L is taxed INSANELY in many countries.

I would say the average engine in Europe when I went was somewhere around 1.4-1.6 liters.

Anything over 2.0L is considered "big." Something around 3.5 liters is gigantic to many Europeans. Forget about V8's.

Also, cars have many more engine configurations, you can get an E-Class or 5 Series with a 4 banger and manual transmission.



Thats the way it needs to become here, fast.

 

[PricklyPete]

GM will be selling a 1.4L direct injection/turbo setup in their upcoming Cruze (and likely several other cars in the end as it seems like this will be the new corporate small engine).

As many have already mentioned, high-tech, small displacement engines already exist all over Europe/Asia...there just hasn't been demand for them in the USA. We'll see how long this recession lasts and how quickly gas prices go back up...because that seems to be the only thing that pushes people in the small displacement direction (lack of money or high gas prices). If the US had similar tax codes to Europe, you'd see a lot more people buying small engines.

 

[Doggiedog]

In Japan, manufacturers have whole series of cars called "Kei" cars which are 0.6L and turbo charged. They are smaller than the Fits and Yarises here. I doubt those things would sell well here due to safety regulations.

Here's a Subaru I found.

http://www.subaru.jp/r1/r1/index.html

It's got a supercharger in it and has 64HP.

Some of my friends in Japan had these type cars and they are very fast but I wouldn't want to get into an accident in one.

 

[randomlinh]

what about a 1.8L supercharger-turbo setup? heh.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: PricklyPete
GM will be selling a 1.4L direct injection/turbo setup in their upcoming Cruze (and likely several other cars in the end as it seems like this will be the new corporate small engine).

As many have already mentioned, high-tech, small displacement engines already exist all over Europe/Asia...there just hasn't been demand for them in the USA. We'll see how long this recession lasts and how quickly gas prices go back up...because that seems to be the only thing that pushes people in the small displacement direction (lack of money or high gas prices). If the US had similar tax codes to Europe, you'd see a lot more people buying small engines.

Maybe not.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28279245/

There's the usual corporate double speak about how it won't delay the launch, etc., etc., but those of us that live in SE Michigan know how to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'd say the Volt is dead (supposed to use this same motor), the Cruze is dead and probably, GM is too. Work was suspended on the sheet metal for these cars about 6 to 8 weeks ago.

Edit: link

 

[overst33r]

Originally posted by: randomlinh
what about a 1.8L supercharger-turbo setup? heh.

VW has a setup like this on their golf in Europe. Don't know anybody else that uses it though, probably because of manufacturing complexity.

http://www.gizmag.com/go/4595/picture/14947/

The compact 1.4 litre direct-injection engine develops 125 kW / 170 PS and has a maximum torque of 240 newton metres in the range from 1750 to 4500 rpm thanks to the combination of an exhaust turbocharger with a mechanically driven compressor. Furthermore, the ?Twincharger? delivers a torque corresponding to a naturally aspirated engine of approximately 2.3 litres. And its fuel consumption is around 20 percent lower.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: PricklyPete
GM will be selling a 1.4L direct injection/turbo setup in their upcoming Cruze (and likely several other cars in the end as it seems like this will be the new corporate small engine).

As many have already mentioned, high-tech, small displacement engines already exist all over Europe/Asia...there just hasn't been demand for them in the USA. We'll see how long this recession lasts and how quickly gas prices go back up...because that seems to be the only thing that pushes people in the small displacement direction (lack of money or high gas prices). If the US had similar tax codes to Europe, you'd see a lot more people buying small engines.

Maybe not.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28279245/

There's the usual corporate double speak about how it won't delay the launch, etc., etc., but those of us that live in SE Michigan know how to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'd say the Volt is dead (supposed to use this same motor), the Cruze is dead and probably, GM is too. Work was suspended on the sheet metal for these cars about 6 to 8 weeks ago.

Edit: link

Well that would be a shame...but I still don't see the gov letting GM die...we'll see. GM has a great 2.0L direct injection, turbocharged engine, so I'm confident they could also produce a good 1.4L of the same variety.

 

[TehMac]

Its not that simple. Not only is power reduced, but think of the stress on your engine. Slapping on a turbo charging works for muscle cars and sporty cars because the manufacturers dont expect users to keep using them for a long period of time (like 20 years or so, or even 10). Turbos/Super Chargers stress the engine and it has to be very well designed to minimize the stress, which is still present, and still a factor.

 

[Itchrelief]

Originally posted by: TehMac
Its not that simple. Not only is power reduced, but think of the stress on your engine. Slapping on a turbo charging works for muscle cars and sporty cars because the manufacturers dont expect users to keep using them for a long period of time (like 20 years or so, or even 10). Turbos/Super Chargers stress the engine and it has to be very well designed to minimize the stress, which is still present, and still a factor.

True, but hopefully they aren't just "slapping on" a turbocharger but designing the engine with forced induction in mind from square one. Design the engine right, cool the turbo, and make sure the oil doesn't get cooked, and it should last almost as long. I'm sure you can gain back in reliability if you give up a bit in pure performance/weight.

I'm not a car guy, but I figure that you can either make a larger box with thinner walls or a smaller box with thicker walls for the same weight. If you do your engineering right, you only need to strengthen the critical areas of that smaller box, then you might save some weight in the process.

Hopefully the car around it can also be smaller due to the smaller engine volume, and save some more weight there.

 

[caspur]

Originally posted by: BouZouki

Originally posted by: CRXican
Sub 2.0L cars are quite common in Europe.

Anything over 2.0L is taxed INSANELY in many countries.

I would say the average engine in Europe when I went was somewhere around 1.4-1.6 liters.

Anything over 2.0L is considered "big." Something around 3.5 liters is gigantic to many Europeans. Forget about V8's.

Also, cars have many more engine configurations, you can get an E-Class or 5 Series with a 4 banger and manual transmission.

Thats the way it needs to become here, fast.

Is it possible to cheat by having 2 engines in 1 car (like the Prius), but say have 2 2.0L gasoline engines. Then you get twice the power, without having to pay any of the insane taxes.

 

[Throckmorton]

Tiny engines with forced induction aren't necessarily efficient. There's less volume for the burning gases to expand to, so a small engine extracts less energy from the same amount of fuel/air as a larger one

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: caspur

Originally posted by: BouZouki

Originally posted by: CRXican
Sub 2.0L cars are quite common in Europe.

Anything over 2.0L is taxed INSANELY in many countries.

I would say the average engine in Europe when I went was somewhere around 1.4-1.6 liters.

Anything over 2.0L is considered "big." Something around 3.5 liters is gigantic to many Europeans. Forget about V8's.

Also, cars have many more engine configurations, you can get an E-Class or 5 Series with a 4 banger and manual transmission.

Thats the way it needs to become here, fast.

Is it possible to cheat by having 2 engines in 1 car (like the Prius), but say have 2 2.0L gasoline engines. Then you get twice the power, without having to pay any of the insane taxes.

1. It's probably for total displacement, not displacement per motor.
2. Even if it skirts the law, at that point, you might as well just take a big motor and take the tax hit. You'll have to have 2 of everything from ignitions to oil systems to fuel delivery, not to mention somehow connecting the two together for one output. Not to mention the huge mileage hit that would come from the inefficiencies and parasitic losses.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

http://www.japanoid.com/

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: Itchrelief

True, but hopefully they aren't just "slapping on" a turbocharger but designing the engine with forced induction in mind from square one. Design the engine right, cool the turbo, and make sure the oil doesn't get cooked, and it should last almost as long. I'm sure you can gain back in reliability if you give up a bit in pure performance/weight.

I'm not a car guy, but I figure that you can either make a larger box with thinner walls or a smaller box with thicker walls for the same weight. If you do your engineering right, you only need to strengthen the critical areas of that smaller box, then you might save some weight in the process.

Hopefully the car around it can also be smaller due to the smaller engine volume, and save some more weight there.

Well true, but keep in mind, by slapping on a turbo, you'll have to strengthen your engine, which will make it heavier, etc.

BMW is now going the turbo route because I imagine its cheaper to slap on some bmw turbos than tune the hell out of the car. I guess it also consumes less fuel as well because of the boosting effect.

 

[Aikouka]

I couldn't imagine having to drive a car with such a slow 0-60 time . How could I truly be a cock if I can't cut out in front of people so easily?

EDIT: Oh wait, I still will be... I'll just be even worse because it will take even longer to get up to speed.

 

[randay]

because they can just make the engine bigger.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Tiny engines with forced induction aren't necessarily efficient. There's less volume for the burning gases to expand to, so a small engine extracts less energy from the same amount of fuel/air as a larger one

The answer here is no, not legally.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
I couldn't imagine having to drive a car with such a slow 0-60 time . How could I truly be a cock if I can't cut out in front of people so easily?

EDIT: Oh wait, I still will be... I'll just be even worse because it will take even longer to get up to speed.

just drive an audi

 

[MovingTarget]

Why not a larger displacement 2 or 3 banger? Fewer moving parts, but if they can dampen the vibration enough it could prove durable and economical...

 

[freegeeks]

I can give you an example of the insane taxes on cars in Belgium

when you buy a new BMW M3 you have to pay

one time tax: ?4957
yearly car tax: ?1790


you don't want to know about insurance