Why doesn't anyone do anything about this?

[Gamingphreek]

http://www.weather.com/outlook/weather-news/news/articles/2012-congested-roads_2011-10-26

Amdahl's Law (Generally applied in Computer Science) states that we should optimize that which has the greatest impact. Right now, politicians and the like are so focused on mandating that cars achieve "X" in terms of mileage. If they want to "create" jobs, and if they want to gain public approval, and if they want to help the energy problem, starting fixing the traffic!!

It is so infuriating to stop an intersection where there is literally no one else trying to cross. The light's timer just expired and figured it would check. So instead of in it's most efficient state (Highway speeds), we now have to break (Takes more time) and accelerate from 0 back to our previous speed (The most efficient state of an engine).

Furthermore, I have roughly a 15 mile commute. This commute from Ashburn, VA to Chantilly, VA takes me about 1 hour in the morning. The government is in charge of roads! So not only am I wasting time, but I'm sucking up enormous amounts of gas and not going anywhere. Not only that, I would imagine there would be a lot less accidents, a lot less incidents of road rage, people would have more time in their day to either (A) work more or (B) use as personal/family time.

Any ideas why no one ever seems to talk about this? The Government is in charge of the roads in the nation. If you want to "create" jobs without pushing the boundaries of your Constitutional Powers why not put people to work fixing the roads/interchanges? As a result, not only are people happier and have more time, but you have just but a SIGNIFICANT dent in our energy consumption just by being more efficient about travel.

-GP

(While we are on this topic, a much tougher driving exam which requires recertification periodically would probably go a long way towards improving our infrastructure as well)

 

[Jaskalas]

Why doesn't anyone do anything about this?

I imagine the alternative is quite expensive to build. Are you thinking public transportation, maybe rail? Most the problem with new infrastructure is the initial investment costs more (short term) than maintenance on what we already have. There's also private land ownership blocking routes needed to lay it out.

(While we are on this topic, a much tougher driving exam which requires recertification periodically would probably go a long way towards improving our infrastructure as well)

What, is it going to rip the cellphone from their hands?


Anyways, 'we' probably don't talk about it because it's not yet seen as a national issue. Oh we'll get there. Federal government is centralizing power like crazy and some day you won't be able to clear, shape, or prep land without their permission. Thing is we haven't yet gotten that far yet. Right now it's sort of a local issue paid for by the Feds.

 

[Gamingphreek]

I imagine the alternative is quite expensive to build. Are you thinking public transportation, maybe rail? Most the problem with new infrastructure is the initial investment costs more (short term) than maintenance on what we already have. There's also private land ownership blocking routes needed to lay it out.

Not necessarily public transportation, but smart road decisions and smart lights. We have phones that can respond to voice commands, but nobody has taken the time to invent some logic for a light to intelligently adjust to traffic at a given intersection.

What, is it going to rip the cellphone from their hands?

Some people are terrible drivers without a cell phone. We can at least eliminate them (Or make them better).

Anyways, 'we' probably don't talk about it because it's not yet seen as a national issue. Oh we'll get there. Federal government is centralizing power like crazy and some day you won't be able to clear, shape, or prep land without their permission. Thing is we haven't yet gotten that far yet. Right now it's sort of a local issue paid for by the Feds.

That's sad that the government's stance is, "Wait until everything is horribly broken before we explore fixing it. I think fixing some of our transportation would positively affect a large number of other things.

See inline comments.

 

[MotF Bane]

That is such a minor factor in traffic when you compare it to the people focusing on something else (phone conversation, texting, eating, drinking, makeup/hair, whatever), the people who doesn't don't focus at all (mindlessly chugging along), those who feel their time is more important than others (flying up a secondary lane and merging in at the last second), and those who just flat out suck at driving.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Rant comment #1:
Lights do adjust, depending on the time of day. Most signals have sensors to tell if there is a vehicle on a cross street or turn lane.

Rant comment #2:
Realize that altering one light can have a ripple effect of 10+ lights around it.
How are you going to make a person a better driver. People that commit traffic offenses have the option of going to a educational class in lue of points on the license. However, that does mean that they will nto comitt the same offense again. Look at the number of perps in ATOT alone that complain about multiple speeding tickets and/or reckless driving.

It is the choice of the driver on how they drive; the law can only enforce and ensure that the basic qualifications are met.

Rant comment #3:
Dedicated car poll lanes or limited exit lanes would be the better solution; for extra landes you would have to then build overpasses and take land. Limited exit - terminate cross streets and the primary road - forcing a reroute of traffic. No more traffic light for you to get onto the main road - detour 1-2 miles each way now. The government has to determine if such is a worthwhile investment/cost effective.Are you willing to double you state/local income tax to get to work an extra 5-10 minutes earlier.

How about locating a more efficient route or leaving at a different time?

 

[Infohawk]

The economic boom in the DC area is disgusting at a time like this... If the wealth was spread away from government contractors, your commute might be better.

 

[Anarchist420]

Rant comment #1:
Lights do adjust, depending on the time of day. Most signals have sensors to tell if there is a vehicle on a cross street or turn lane.

Rant comment #2:
Realize that altering one light can have a ripple effect of 10+ lights around it.
How are you going to make a person a better driver. People that commit traffic offenses have the option of going to a educational class in lue of points on the license. However, that does mean that they will nto comitt the same offense again. Look at the number of perps in ATOT alone that complain about multiple speeding tickets and/or reckless driving.

It is the choice of the driver on how they drive; the law can only enforce and ensure that the basic qualifications are met.

The regulations and public ownership of roads are the reason why the roads suck.

You hit the nail on the head--government cannot make people better drivers.

 

[kranky]

Driving is not politically correct these days, so don't expect to see any massive highway build-outs. The cost is so astronomical people will insist that money go to mass transit instead.

The perception is that it is more effective and energy-efficient to get cars off the road, not make it easier to have more cars.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Rant comment #1:
Lights do adjust, depending on the time of day. Most signals have sensors to tell if there is a vehicle on a cross street or turn lane.

A lot of lights still don't. Even if they do, there is little logic in it. For instance, what is the point in releasing the entire lane save for 1 car with none behind it.

Rant comment #2:
Realize that altering one light can have a ripple effect of 10+ lights around it.
How are you going to make a person a better driver. People that commit traffic offenses have the option of going to a educational class in lue of points on the license. However, that does mean that they will nto comitt the same offense again. Look at the number of perps in ATOT alone that complain about multiple speeding tickets and/or reckless driving.

People that purposefully screw up will obvious continue to do that. However, those who are not good drivers despite trying to be can at least be given additional instruction or if they are poor enough, have their drivers license suspended.

For instance, people should be able to successfully merge into at-speed traffic (ie: Not stopping with a mile long acceleration lane)

It is the choice of the driver on how they drive; the law can only enforce and ensure that the basic qualifications are met.

I'm saying that the qualifications are too basic. I stood at DMV a couple years back and watch an elderly woman fail the basic vision test 5 times before finally passing it.

Rant comment #3:
Dedicated car poll lanes or limited exit lanes would be the better solution; for extra landes you would have to then build overpasses and take land. Limited exit - terminate cross streets and the primary road - forcing a reroute of traffic. No more traffic light for you to get onto the main road - detour 1-2 miles each way now. The government has to determine if such is a worthwhile investment/cost effective.Are you willing to double you state/local income tax to get to work an extra 5-10 minutes earlier.

I think more efficient use of the budget would accomplish some of these things. The politicians need to realize that, yes, there are a lot of things that need done, but not a lot of money to do it -- the same as a budget for an individual. Perhaps we should prioritize some of these things just a little....

It would be 45 minutes earlier for me on the way in alone. There has to be some combination or road closures, overpasses, theater roads, etc... that can help in a lot of situations.

How about locating a more efficient route or leaving at a different time?

Every route is like this in my case. If I leave earlier or much much later, I can avoid it, but there is a reason why people prefer to work 8 hours in the middle of the day and not at the extremes.

Inline comments.

 

[Genx87]

If lights auto adjust they sure arent working as intended in MN. Nearly every road I drive on will have a red light for the road that has traffic and green for nobody at least a few times through several lights. There was a light near my parents place I would simply run due to turning red and not turning green for minutes at a time. And this is with no cross traffic in the green lanes at all.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

If we had an efficient DOT system that functioned more like a business and less as a revenue generator then they'd connect with google and use their location based traffic services to map out traffic issues.


However, our country generally tends to function more like a 'good ole boy' system, so lights are left alone until someone important knows someone else important enough to request it be changed to favor them.




....My experience has been that they do a traffic study when the light is installed and time the light based on that - and never touch it again. They're usually completely out of whack to traffic conditions after about a year.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

If lights auto adjust they sure arent working as intended in MN. Nearly every road I drive on will have a red light for the road that has traffic and green for nobody at least a few times through several lights. There was a light near my parents place I would simply run due to turning red and not turning green for minutes at a time. And this is with no cross traffic in the green lanes at all.

I believe eaglekeeper means that they're timed a certain way during rush hour (6-9am, 4-7pm). The problem is that generally these timings are wrong, in my experience, and I live in a very well-funded area as far as roads and etc are concerned.



There needs to be some algorithm and method to track and time lights. Seems like an untapped market to me..

It'd be great to have some wireless system with timers/sensors which could be temporarily placed on the road that a city could lease for a month to track things, then get a report based off of it as to when the lights should change. I've seen some engineering firms do this but it's $$$$$$$+$$$.

Anyone want to start a company with me?

 

[Ninjahedge]

Waa. Red light.

While I believe there are some areas that need to be re-examined (try going cross-town in Manhattan...) there are others that work well (such as the timed lights in Manhattan going uptown and downtown).

Pressure plates and motion sensors are also in effect on a lot of lights in major areas.

Some things I found help with the light situation.

1. Time them. Even if you have to coast up at 15mph on the highway (yes, I have taken it into neutral and coasted when I see a red ahead), you are still AT 15 when it goes green. You save fuel and you get a jump on the others (if they did not jump ahead of you).

2. Get a hybrid. Yeah, I know, expensive (or geeky, depending on the model). If your problem is stop-and-go, get a vehicle that converts some of that energy back into stored power for the startup.

3. Start looking for alternatives. Jug-handles are good (light turns red, you go on the handle and make a right back onto the road). Alternate routes that might be longer, but have less stoppage.

The system needs some optimization. Some areas have stop signs that make no practical sense and roads that have had their flow changed to try to solve the problem, but only added to it. AAMOF, there are some areas that NEED traffic lights instead of congested intersections and *shudder* traffic circles.

While I can sympathize with your frustration, I think you are still whining. Be a man. Deal with it.

 

[K1052]

Driving is not politically correct these days, so don't expect to see any massive highway build-outs. The cost is so astronomical people will insist that money go to mass transit instead.

The perception is that it is more effective and energy-efficient to get cars off the road, not make it easier to have more cars.

Adding road capacity has been found to be pretty much ineffective at reducing congestion, providing minimal return for a huge investment. Lots of cities are refocusing on commuter rail and mass transit.

 

[Lemon law]

My comments are as follows.

1. Our OP is just complaining about his commute, but there are thousands of other commutes, and there is not enough money in the world to fix them all. Its the price you pay for living in a high population density area.

2. Out OP wants de government to fix all of his problems as he complains he burns too much gas while idling. But no no no, our OP will take no personal responsibility to buy an all electric vehicle or a hybrid car that would be perfect for such driving conditions. Nor will our OP be willing to subsidize light rail or even car pooling to get 60% of the cars off the road. Or even ask how much city space his parked car wastes while he is at work.

 

[Gamingphreek]

My comments are as follows.

1. Our OP is just complaining about his commute, but there are thousands of other commutes, and there is not enough money in the world to fix them all. Its the price you pay for living in a high population density area.

2. Out OP wants de government to fix all of his problems as he complains he burns too much gas while idling. But no no no, our OP will take no personal responsibility to buy an all electric vehicle or a hybrid car that would be perfect for such driving conditions. Nor will our OP be willing to subsidize light rail or even car pooling to get 60% of the cars off the road. Or even ask how much city space his parked car wastes while he is at work.

Wow what made you such an angry person today. Your assumptions are nearly all wrong, but they are derogatory, put words in my mouth that I simply didn't imply in my slightest.

1. I'm not complaining. I realize my commute is better than a lot of peoples. As I said in the first post, I simply see the Government imposing rules on Fuel Economy and, given that car manufacturers have no control over the greatest factor in fuel economy - I wonder why no one has tapped into that market at all.

2. No... The government is the only one who can do anything about this - believe me I would gladly accept a contract to do something about it such as programming algorithms for "smart lights" and running analyses on traffic simulations (Though I like my current job for the record).

Sure my truck burns some gas, but I don't have a problem affording what I bought. Once again, as I said in the original post, there seems to be a brute force method used in solving the nation's energy and infrastructure problems which has obviously never worked. I also argued that a lot of issues could be fixed by addressing the growing traffic concerns of suburbs and cities.

-GP

 

[SpatiallyAware]

My comments are as follows.

1. Our OP is just complaining about his commute, but there are thousands of other commutes, and there is not enough money in the world to fix them all. Its the price you pay for living in a high population density area.

2. Out OP wants de government to fix all of his problems as he complains he burns too much gas while idling. But no no no, our OP will take no personal responsibility to buy an all electric vehicle or a hybrid car that would be perfect for such driving conditions. Nor will our OP be willing to subsidize light rail or even car pooling to get 60% of the cars off the road. Or even ask how much city space his parked car wastes while he is at work.

FWIW I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.


A mistimed traffic light can cost a LOT of time when you add up how much it impacts each individual. This time is a real and measurable loss, and when you consider the number of people over a few years I have no doubt that it would add up significantly.

 

[Lemon law]

Sure a mistimed traffic light can add a lot of time to their commute, but what about those going a way 90 degrees different. A green light for you means a red light for them. Meaning whose time is more important. Add up all the lights in 15 miles, and yes its a serious time waster no matter how you cut it.

Oh well, maybe time to gloat, I live in a rural area, I can go ten to 15 miles in almost any direction, on a 55MPH roads, crossing other highways in the process, and I'll encounter no more than 4 stop signs and no red or green lights the whole way. My 15 mile commute takes 20 minutes. The only time it takes longer is when there is a lot of snow on the roads. And even then, I'll seldom take my 4WD truck, unless I am hauling something because it wastes too much gas.

On the down side, no cable TV or even DSL for internet.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Sure a mistimed traffic light can add a lot of time to their commute, but what about those going a way 90 degrees different. A green light for you means a red light for them. Meaning whose time is more important. Add up all the lights in 15 miles, and yes its a serious time waster no matter how you cut it.

Oh well, maybe time to gloat, I live in a rural area, I can go ten to 15 miles in almost any direction, on a 55MPH roads, crossing other highways in the process, and I'll encounter no more than 4 stop signs and no red or green lights the whole way. My 15 mile commute takes 20 minutes. The only time it takes longer is when there is a lot of snow on the roads. And even then, I'll seldom take my 4WD truck, unless I am hauling something because it wastes too much gas.

On the down side, no cable TV or even DSL for internet.

In a rural area, sure, your methodology applies. It doesn't make sense to mess with light timing, the sensors are enough to keep traffic flowing without impacting 100's of people. Even if a few people are inconvenienced it's a total of a few minutes at most.

But in more urban environments both directions end up backed up for miles. Turn signals will go green for 60-120 seconds with no one there. Every single person on both sides of the intersection has lost 60-120 seconds. Add this up for the 100-1000's of people and over the course of a year or so and it's a LOT of lost time... Not even getting into the impact of the stress and etc.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Easiest thing to combat congestion is charging people for it.

London has a system that charges more if you drive into the heart of the city during peak hours.

As much as many people say "NO!!!" to this, many also say "I would pay $X a day if I could get across Manhattan in 15 minutes or less".

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Any ideas why no one ever seems to talk about this? The Government is in charge of the roads in the nation. If you want to "create" jobs without pushing the boundaries of your Constitutional Powers why not put people to work fixing the roads/interchanges? As a result, not only are people happier and have more time, but you have just but a SIGNIFICANT dent in our energy consumption just by being more efficient about travel.

My father (now retired) was a Director for FL DOT. I can tell you that they are aware of this issue. They do work on it.

However, my guess is that fuel efficiency (it seems that your primary point) is not necessarily the main objective. (Actually it may be, depends how you view it.) I believe the main object is 'flow of traffic', primarily meaning avoiding gridlock (avoiding gridlock certainly helps with fuel efficiency). As Eaglekeeper points out, one light at an intersection affects many many other lights at different intersections. And there is a priority system. I.e., a street crossing a state highway that runs through a town may appear to have a 'bad' light, but it is so to make the (greater) highway traffic more efficient. It's complicated.

Also, some lights are there because of traffic fatalities. Therefor the top priority is likely safety, not saving gas by ensuring high speeds are maintained.

Fern

 

[K1052]

Easiest thing to combat congestion is charging people for it.

London has a system that charges more if you drive into the heart of the city during peak hours.

As much as many people say "NO!!!" to this, many also say "I would pay $X a day if I could get across Manhattan in 15 minutes or less".

Congestion charges in NYC would almost certainly focus on the bridges and tunnels, trying to keep traffic out of Manhattan.

The problem is that significant portions of the commuter networks are at capacity during rush. Penn and Grand Central can't take any more trains and PATH is already near/at capacity at those times.

 

[JTsyo]

You'll have to wait for self driving cars to really push us to the next level. The ripple effect in high density traffic results in one person hitting the brake into a 5 min delay for those 1/2 mile behind.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Congestion charges in NYC would almost certainly focus on the bridges and tunnels, trying to keep traffic out of Manhattan.

The problem is that significant portions of the commuter networks are at capacity during rush. Penn and Grand Central can't take any more trains and PATH is already near/at capacity at those times.

Yes and no.

You would have to significantly raise them to have any effect, and you would also have to put tolls on ALL crossings (including the Brooklyn, Williamsburg and Queensboro bridges).

The problem is, you raise GWB prices to $15 a shot, less people might come in there, but you will more than fill the gap from people on the other side that now see it is 10 minutes faster to get in (why take the subway, etc etc).

All they need it to cordon off all internal roads from the bottom of Central Park down (59th?). You can only drive w/o charge on the belt, west side highway and along the east river. As soon as you come in, you get charged for it.

Also, they need to find a way to get those damn delivery trucks OUT of Manhattan in time for rush. Drop your crap and GTFO! Too many box trucks come in in the morning nd stay all day blocking roads and taking up parking.....

 

[Ninjahedge]

You'll have to wait for self driving cars to really push us to the next level. The ripple effect in high density traffic results in one person hitting the brake into a 5 min delay for those 1/2 mile behind.

I was thinking about that. Something almost like an expressway conveyor belt (it would only go to auto-drive when you got on the entrance ramp to a major artery).

People will not like the lack of control, but if they perfected it and allowed you to travel 100mph along route 80 through Pennsylvania and out west, you would see more people saying "TEAM AMERICA F' YEAH!!!!!!"