Why does Windows 98 "break down" over time?

TechnoPro

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2003
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I have a client who's running a 4-5 year old Windows 98 equipped Gateway. She's having performance issues and strange errors. She's reluctant to get a new system as hers is "just fine"...

She is also not keen on the idea of a reformat or upgrading to Windows XP (nuke and pave, using XP as the paver and not the actual 98 -> XP upgrade sequence.)

Instead, she wants the PC fixed... As if a few magical clicks will make it all good. This is not possible...

So I explained to her that Windows 98 degrades over time and that XP was much more stable. She wanted a detailed exlanation of how an OS could "break down" or degrade, and I had no easy answer. I have some technical understanding about the fundamental architecture diffewrences in 9x vs. NT, but not nearly enough to water it down for someone non-technical.

Is there a layman's answer to my question? Thanks.



 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
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She's having performance issues and strange errors. She's reluctant to get a new system as hers is "just fine"...

tell her it will cost her more to fix her system than replace/upgrade it. she might understand that.

 

TechnoPro

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Jul 10, 2003
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Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
She's having performance issues and strange errors. She's reluctant to get a new system as hers is "just fine"...

tell her it will cost her more to fix her system than replace/upgrade it. she might understand that.

Won't work. Money is of no consequence to her.
 

Dragonbate

Senior member
Mar 1, 2004
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LOL just format the thing and reinstall windows 98. Doesn't take long and it will run like new. Most likely shes just full of adware etc. Run some good adware utilites, regclean, and a decent defragmenter and she might be good to go. BTW windows 98 se is the best OS for older computers that can't run win2k. I still refuse to use xp which is bloated with cartoon interface. If you want to continue supporting her system break the hd into 2 partitions one soley for windows 98. Then everytime she needs a reinstall you just format that partition and she won't lose any data.
 

vegetation

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: Dragonbate
LOL just format the thing and reinstall windows 98. Doesn't take long and it will run like new. Most likely shes just full of adware etc. Run some good adware utilites, regclean, and a decent defragmenter and she might be good to go. BTW windows 98 se is the best OS for older computers that can't run win2k. I still refuse to use xp which is bloated with cartoon interface. If you want to continue supporting her system break the hd into 2 partitions one soley for windows 98. Then everytime she needs a reinstall you just format that partition and she won't lose any data.

That wont necessarily work since win98 likes to keep everything on the windows drive.
Incremental backups seem to be the key here. Since money is apparently no object to this client, offer to go there once or twice a week to perform a backup and charge for it. You both win.
 

Redfoot

Member
Dec 16, 2004
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+1 Dragonbate.

I have my mom's machine set up like that so I do not have to perform tech support every couple of days. I shipped her a driver disk that she keeps in a safe place, and every 4-6 months we do a monthly "cleaning". However, she will be getting my system soon with guest user access so there is less chance of anything getting F*'d up.

BTW, this lady sounds like a PITA, just charge her top dollar for support, and maybe through in a benchmark from before reinstall to after to show her the performance gains. Of course, you could just tell her that Bill Gates just needs more money-also tell her to stop surfing porn and gambling sites.

-Redfoot
 

Blazer

Golden Member
Nov 5, 1999
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what does she use it for ?
does she have a internet account,what is her connection ?
what are her sys resources at ?
does she know that microsoft intends to drop support for win 98 soon ?

 

TechnoPro

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2003
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Originally posted by: Dragonbate
LOL just format the thing and reinstall windows 98. Doesn't take long and it will run like new. Most likely shes just full of adware etc. Run some good adware utilites, regclean, and a decent defragmenter and she might be good to go. BTW windows 98 se is the best OS for older computers that can't run win2k. I still refuse to use xp which is bloated with cartoon interface. If you want to continue supporting her system break the hd into 2 partitions one soley for windows 98. Then everytime she needs a reinstall you just format that partition and she won't lose any data.

Our experiences are very different. Every client that I have ever upgraded to XP on older hardware (after dropping in some RAM of course) was thrilled with the new OS. As for calling XP cartoony, I'm sure you know that one can change the interface into the classic look in a matter of seconds.

In this case, her issues are not the typical adware/virus infestation. And realistically, it would take a long time to complete the entire job. She demands perfection and precision which translates into many hours.

The partitioning idea sounds good. But my original and only question was... How to explain to someone non-technical why an OS corrupts over time.
 

Anubis08

Senior member
Aug 24, 2004
220
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Originally posted by: TechnoPro

Won't work. Money is of no consequence to her.

If money is of no consequence why not update. I had a windows 98 computer and it did the same thing though. Actually I gat an HP about 6 months before I built this rig and it had a celeron 1.60 ghz with 256 MB ram and it smoked my win 98 comp. They used to jokingly call it windows sclerosis. The only cure is a reload of the OS or a foot through the side of the box.
 

phatrabt

Senior member
Jan 28, 2004
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I'll give your question a shot...

It's been my experience (YMMV) that the degradation is due to the OS architecture itself. Win98 (and it's predecessors) are built on the DOS code base. Here's a quote about WinME but it seems to be valid for Win98:

Chicago = Windows 95 32-bit architecture, built on DOS, and subsequently serving as the code-base for Windows 98 and Windows ME

As we all know from playing with DOS, it's VERY picky about certain things (like memory) and isn't very forgiving. Basically Win9x was applied on top of this base and shipped to us the consumer. Ever notice how if a program crashes in Win9x it's nearly impossible to save the rest of the OS? That's because of the way the programs interact with the different subsystems (I'm not a programmer, so most of this is what I picked over the years). As time goes on and programs get installed and uninstalled, a lot of times they leave parts behind (old registry entries, DLL's, drivers, etc) and these can cause a slowdown and problems. I am a firm believer that you should do a little "spring cleaning" every 6 months or so on a Win9x machine to get rid of these things and get the OS back up to speed.

As for a solution to your current problem, I would go with the second partition idea and also make her a "dummy disk". Ghost the OS after it's installed with everything set up like she wants it (but before she gets to tear into it) and put it on a DVD. I wrote a batch file for mine so that all they have to do is put the disk in and boot and follow the prompts. Well, I HTH and good luck!

phatrabt
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Why does Windows 98 break down over time?

Tell her that it's a combination of user error combined with a obselete operating system.

Fat32 filing system for instance has no capabilty for journalling or self-correction. Every time you crash your computer, reboot improperly, or suffer a power outage subtle damages happen to the files and directory system on your harddrive. Over time these minor impurities add up and as the machine becomes more and more unstable and errors pile on top of each other faster and faster.

Sort of like pulling a loose thread on a sweater and having the entire thing unravel.

Also installing and uninstalling software has a detrimental effect over time. Explain that the registry system is something that all programs on Windows have to deal with for configurations and specifications and the more programs that access the registry the more likely that you would have conflicts and errors. There is no reliable way to combat this and over time the situation with the registry degrades making it more and more difficult to properly install and uninstall programs and have a stable system.

Again like the issues with the filing system as more and more errors happen the more rapidly the system performance and reliability degrade. It's a vicous circle.

Explain that it is sort of like what happens as a car gets older and older. You get above 130,000 miles and the thing burns oil, then it runs low on oil and even though you refill it it damages the motor more causing it to burn more oil and leak oil faster which causes damage to the motor causing it to burn and leak more oil over the electronics and so on and so forth, until one day the car in unmanageble state of disrepair and needs to be replaced.


For a large part of problems faced with Windows 98 Microsoft has manage to correct in the 10 years since the original systems of Windows have been programmed.

She should get the point by then unless she is a idiot.

Then you do like a local shops do around were I live.

Charge 60-80 bucks to reinstall Windows for customers. Charge 200-300 dollars to fix windows for customers. (or something similar)

The difference in price reflects the hours of labor that have to go into doing each task.
 

TechnoPro

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2003
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Thanks phatrabt and drag. I borrowed heavily from your posts and she's basically stated that she would sooner buy a new one than reformat/upgrade but she still wants me to try to fix things... Appointment in 1 week.
 

toant103

Lifer
Jul 21, 2001
10,514
1
0
Originally posted by: TechnoPro
I have a client who's running a 4-5 year old Windows 98 equipped Gateway. She's having performance issues and strange errors. She's reluctant to get a new system as hers is "just fine"...

She is also not keen on the idea of a reformat or upgrading to Windows XP (nuke and pave, using XP as the paver and not the actual 98 -> XP upgrade sequence.)

Instead, she wants the PC fixed... As if a few magical clicks will make it all good. This is not possible...

So I explained to her that Windows 98 degrades over time and that XP was much more stable. She wanted a detailed exlanation of how an OS could "break down" or degrade, and I had no easy answer. I have some technical understanding about the fundamental architecture diffewrences in 9x vs. NT, but not nearly enough to water it down for someone non-technical.

Is there a layman's answer to my question? Thanks.

so your telling me she has not format in 4-5 years?

That's pretty good for win98

 

TechnoPro

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2003
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Originally posted by: toant103
Originally posted by: TechnoPro
I have a client who's running a 4-5 year old Windows 98 equipped Gateway. She's having performance issues and strange errors. She's reluctant to get a new system as hers is "just fine"...

She is also not keen on the idea of a reformat or upgrading to Windows XP (nuke and pave, using XP as the paver and not the actual 98 -> XP upgrade sequence.)

Instead, she wants the PC fixed... As if a few magical clicks will make it all good. This is not possible...

So I explained to her that Windows 98 degrades over time and that XP was much more stable. She wanted a detailed exlanation of how an OS could "break down" or degrade, and I had no easy answer. I have some technical understanding about the fundamental architecture diffewrences in 9x vs. NT, but not nearly enough to water it down for someone non-technical.

Is there a layman's answer to my question? Thanks.

so your telling me she has not format in 4-5 years?

That's pretty good for win98

Correct, never been formatted. I've also been maintaining it for that time and training her in good computing habits. So my ego tells me that this must count for something.
 

hopejr

Senior member
Nov 8, 2004
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I had a customer like this once. I dropped her (yes, it was another female). But before that, I went to her place to fix the computer, and she wouldn't let me touch it. She was saying "exactly" what was wrong and how to fix it, even though I knew that wasn't the case. When I finally got to do something on the computer, I tried to fix it but it was pretty well long gone and couldn't be fixed completely without a format and reinstall, although it was now usable and to her it was fixed (to me it was a mess). After spending 4 hours there, she refused to pay more for more than 1 hour's worth, even though she was happy with it. I vowed never to have any more to do with that person.
 

TechnoPro

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Jul 10, 2003
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Originally posted by: hopejr
I had a customer like this once. I dropped her (yes, it was another female). But before that, I went to her place to fix the computer, and she wouldn't let me touch it. She was saying "exactly" what was wrong and how to fix it, even though I knew that wasn't the case. When I finally got to do something on the computer, I tried to fix it but it was pretty well long gone and couldn't be fixed completely without a format and reinstall, although it was now usable and to her it was fixed (to me it was a mess). After spending 4 hours there, she refused to pay more for more than 1 hour's worth, even though she was happy with it. I vowed never to have any more to do with that person.

I can relate. I love it when I get on site and an over-enthisiastic client will basically sit down and show me what they read on how to fix a problem that they don't even have. My favorite of all times was with one of my top accounts. He was saying something entirely unfeasible and was sticking to his story, even getting mildly worked up that I wouldn't believe him. It had to do with e-mail delivery and incorrectly formatted addresses. Something to that effect.

So I made a bet with him. I said I would work pro bono for the rest of the year if I was wrong. And I laughed all the bank, but for a few seconds I genuinely felt stupid for putting myself in that position.
 

joanneL2

Member
Jan 10, 2005
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Just had a customer just like this too. He absolutely would not consider buying a new system (I don't sell them, I just refer to local CompUSA's and BestBuys) even though money isn't an issue. He likes his computer. It's at least 5 years old. He DID ask if I would put XP on it and I laughed and told him his machine doesn't come close to meeting hardware requirements for XP. Anyhow, I WAS able to convince him to buy a cheap 40 gig HD as a new master (his is 12 gigs). I then kept the original 12 gigger as his new slave and put a nice, clean install on the new master. I put all his crap back (VERY selectively) from the slave. Once everything was perfect, I took a Ghost image (Norton's Ghost) of the flawless new drive and kept it on his slave. It's hard to convince some people that their computer's are dinosaurs. On the other hand, and to be fair to them, when you're doing little more than word processing or balancing your checkbook or logging onto a dial-up AOL connection, it's fine for these purposes.
 

Executioner

Senior member
Oct 24, 1999
783
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81
I had my installation of Win98 for 4+ years until just last October when I finally made the switch to xp. During this time, my original install of win98 went through 3 or 4 mobo upgrades without a fresh install. I finally had to start over when I began to notice weird things such as the inability to create folders using Explorer or My Computer, so I knew it was time.

What kept my installation running all this time? LOL don't know, but I did use a registry cleaner on a monthly basis.
 

rmrf

Platinum Member
May 14, 2003
2,872
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My biggest customer right now is the easiest I have worked with so far. They know they don't know anything about computers, so I just do what I need to do and I am done. There is one lady in the office that thinks she can fix things, always printing out pages upon pages of crap. I like when she does that, and I sit down and fix the problem 2 seconds later without it having anything to do with the stuff she thought it was.
 

Philippine Mango

Diamond Member
Oct 29, 2004
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Originally posted by: TechnoPro
Originally posted by: hopejr
So I made a bet with him. I said I would work pro bono for the rest of the year if I was wrong. And I laughed all the bank, but for a few seconds I genuinely felt stupid for putting myself in that position.

Why did you feel stupid for putting your self in that position? You know all the work I've done in helping with other peoples computers (fixing) has been entirely pro bono. One time when my cousin asked me to fix some computers at berkeley for sorority was being charged 1K for some inexperienced techie to fix thier computers and I was very surprised. She described what he was doing and I rolled my eyes, though I will never know if she was the dumb one or he was (because I haven't seen the computers yet). I offered to do it for free because I don't like to see people get ripped off, she still hasn't taken me on my offer though... Can't go wrong with free right?
 

membreya

Member
Jan 17, 2005
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people assume free = some catch or the person doesn't know what they're doing

If it costs money then they HAVE to be getting the job done properly :)
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
19,081
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depending on the rest of the computer just buy a new harddrive and make a winXP installation on the new one, copy all from the old harddrive to a folder on the new drive. Explain to her that as long as you have the old drive she can go back to the old system if she doesn't like the new one, which you know she won't do.
 

TechnoPro

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2003
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Originally posted by: Philippine Mango
Originally posted by: TechnoPro
Originally posted by: hopejr
So I made a bet with him. I said I would work pro bono for the rest of the year if I was wrong. And I laughed all the bank, but for a few seconds I genuinely felt stupid for putting myself in that position.

Why did you feel stupid for putting your self in that position? You know all the work I've done in helping with other peoples computers (fixing) has been entirely pro bono. One time when my cousin asked me to fix some computers at berkeley for sorority was being charged 1K for some inexperienced techie to fix thier computers and I was very surprised. She described what he was doing and I rolled my eyes, though I will never know if she was the dumb one or he was (because I haven't seen the computers yet). I offered to do it for free because I don't like to see people get ripped off, she still hasn't taken me on my offer though... Can't go wrong with free right?

You might have a money tree gorwing in your back yard that you can shake a few times when you need some cash. I do not have such a luxury. I work for a living and subsequently charge money for my work. I doubt this is hard to grasp.

I felt stupid about my comment for 2 reasons:

[1] Although highly improbable, I could have been wrong.

[2] It was both boastful and pompous of me to behave like that. Confidence is one thing, but it went a little to far.